Last edit by: fti
People, please edit/use the wiki so same questions are not always asked.
The current CTA decision on the Yangon deal is only for tickets canceled by SWISS Airlines for the seven merged complaints/companions and tickets canceled by Jet Airways for one complainant and companions
- It's not about other carriers because each carrier submits different tariffs.
- If you are not one of the complainants or their companions above who were mentioned in the respective cases, you need to submit a case yourself for hearing.
- There's currently one person who is on Iberia for CTA decision, one can either wait for results or submit a complaint to CTA.
Result of the current case for LX in brief is:
- CTA found 5(F) in the tariff used to be unclear for canceling tickets on erroneously quoted fares.
- 5(F) is unjust and unreasonable and must be revised or taken down by July 9, 2013 (or SWISS can appeal by then)
- SWISS did not use its tariff correctly to cancel the tickets.
- SWISS must compensate one complainant's First Class ticket and any related expenses by July 18, 2013 provided with evidence.
- SWISS must transport other complainants (and their companions) in the original price charged with same booking class and routing by June 18, 2014.
Result of the current case for 9W in brief is:
- Tariff on file had no clauses for "erroneous fares" and was updated subsequently, which means it is not relevant to this event
- Therefore, 9W is to reinstate the tickets with a 1-year validity for transport between the same points and the same booking class.
CTA official news can be read here for general overview of the case.
Actual CTA case review can be found here for reference should you wish to file a complaint.
If you have a similar case that's with SWISS, you need to file with CTA to get a result through informal process first before it gets to formal process. The entire procedure can take up to 3 months for each and the result may not be same cause it's case-by-base and the reviewer of the case can be different.
To file an informal complaint with CTA, see here. Click through all of the pages to get to the online form for the informal complaint. Or click here.
To file a formal complaint after informal complaint has been closed, see here. Continue on to the next page to see the address or email address for the formal complaint.
The July 17th and 18th responses from LX can be found here:
Other Letters:
Feel free to add dates, flights, etc., in order to plan DOs, etc.
Aug 4: SFO-ICN (UA893)
Jason8612
Aug 5: ICN-SFO (UA892)
Jason8612
Aug 7: SFO-ICN (UA893)
Jason8612
Aug 11: ICN-NRT-ORD (UA78, UA882)
Jason8612
Aug 14: BOS-IAD-NRT-ICN (UA285, UA803, UA79)
Deltspygt
Aug 19: ICN-NRT-IAD-BOS (UA78, UA804, UA352)
Deltspygt
Oct 1: UA433-UA893
JeredF +1
Oct 8: UA892-UA242
JeredF +1
Oct 9: BOS-SFO-ICN (UA433, UA893)
BigJC
Oct 13: ICN-NRT-ORD-BOS (UA78, UA882, UA744)
BigJC
Oct 21: BOS-SFO UA433 to SFO-ICN UA893
Sterndogg +1
flyerdude88 (SFO - ICN portion only)
Oct 23: ICN - SFO UA 892
flyerdude88
Oct 27: ICN-SFO UA892 to SFO-BOS UA286
Sterndogg +1
Nov 05: BOS-ORD UA521, ORD-NRT UA881
kokonutz, I012609, BingoSF +1
Nov 11: ICN-SFO UA892, SFO-IAD UA727
kokonutz, I012609, BingoSF +1
Nov 26: BOS-SFO UA433, SFO-NRT UA837, NRT-ICN UA79
thepla
Nov 27: BOS-ORD-NRT-ICN (UA501, UA881, UA196)
BigJC+1
Nov 29: Planning 2 days in TPE, been to ICN
thepla
Dec 1: ICN-SFO UA892, SFO-ORD UA698, ORD-BOS UA961
thepla
Dec 1: ICN-NRT-IAD-BOS (UA78, UA804, UA822)
BigJC+1
Dec 15: BOS-SFO UA433, SFO-ICN UA893
songzm
Dec 25: BOS-IAD UA285, IAD-NRT UA803, NRT-ICN UA79
Dinoscool3 +2
Dec 30: ICN-SFO UA892, SFO-BOS UA444
songzm
Dec 31: ICN-SFO UA892, SFO-BOS UA770
Dinoscool3 +2
Jan 11: BOS-SFO UA1523, Jan 12: SFO-ICN UA893
margarita girl
Jan 12: BOS-SFO UA433, SFO-ICN UA893
Zebranz
14 Jan: BOS-SFO UA433 to SFO-ICN UA893
ORDOGG
19 Jan: ICN-SFO UA892 to SFO-ORD UA698 to ORD-BOS UA961
ORDOGG
Jan 22: ICN-SFO UA892 SFO-BOS UA500
margarita girl
Feb 5: ICN-SFO UA892 SFO-BOS UA242
Zebranz
CMB-DFW EY F
FARE IS GONE
FARE RULES (thanks to SQ421)
FRTLK Fare Rules (RT)
FOWLK Fare Rules (OW)
WHEN ARE YOU FLYING?
Feel free to add any additional cities you're leaving from!
Please slot yourselves in!!!
ex-CMB
Feb
Mar
8 - Darmajaya
12 - Thaidai
22 - Deadinabsentia
Apr
21 - SQ421, penegal, jozdemir
26 - tahsir21
May
28 - Upperdeck744
29 - bonsaisai (positioning flights SIN-CMB, DFW-ORD)
Jun
12 - lelee
Jul
7 - HansGolden +6
8 - arcticbull + 1
11 - bonsaisai's friend (positioning flights: SIN-CMB, DFW-MCI)
25 - Tycosiao
30 - bonsaisai's friend (positioning flights: MCI-DFW, CMB-SIN)
Aug
17 - DC777Fan
26 - Yi Yang
31 - dcas
Sep
Oct
Nov
8 - harryhv
29 - stephem+4
Dec
6 - roastpuff and (soon) Mrs. roastpuff , JFKEZE (UL Code-share)
7 - DWFI
10 - jlisi984 + dad (CMB-AUH-DFW)
21 - bonsaisai (positioning flights SIN-CMB, DFW-ORD)
ex-AUH
Jan
Feb
Mar
Apr
27 - RICHKLHS
May
Jun
29 - yerffej201
Jul
9 - HansGolden +6
27 - Tycosiao
Aug
Sep
Oct
Nov
30 - stephem+4 (to JFK)
Dec
7 - JFKEZE, DWFI [EY161 nonstop]
9 - roastpuff and (soon) Mrs. Roastpuff
ex-DFW
Jan
Feb
Mar
14 - Thaidai
15 - zainman +1
Apr
25 - SQ421, penegal, jozdemir
May
Jun
Jul
Aug
22 - arcticbull + 1
Sep
22 - bonsaisai (positioning flights ORD-DFW, CMB-SIN)
Oct
Nov
19 - harryhv->Paris
Dec
19 - Yi Yang, jona970318
24 - DWFI (EY160 nonstop)
26 - HansGolden +6 (CDG), LwoodY2K (AUH)
The current CTA decision on the Yangon deal is only for tickets canceled by SWISS Airlines for the seven merged complaints/companions and tickets canceled by Jet Airways for one complainant and companions
- It's not about other carriers because each carrier submits different tariffs.
- If you are not one of the complainants or their companions above who were mentioned in the respective cases, you need to submit a case yourself for hearing.
- There's currently one person who is on Iberia for CTA decision, one can either wait for results or submit a complaint to CTA.
Result of the current case for LX in brief is:
- CTA found 5(F) in the tariff used to be unclear for canceling tickets on erroneously quoted fares.
- 5(F) is unjust and unreasonable and must be revised or taken down by July 9, 2013 (or SWISS can appeal by then)
- SWISS did not use its tariff correctly to cancel the tickets.
- SWISS must compensate one complainant's First Class ticket and any related expenses by July 18, 2013 provided with evidence.
- SWISS must transport other complainants (and their companions) in the original price charged with same booking class and routing by June 18, 2014.
Result of the current case for 9W in brief is:
- Tariff on file had no clauses for "erroneous fares" and was updated subsequently, which means it is not relevant to this event
- Therefore, 9W is to reinstate the tickets with a 1-year validity for transport between the same points and the same booking class.
CTA official news can be read here for general overview of the case.
Actual CTA case review can be found here for reference should you wish to file a complaint.
If you have a similar case that's with SWISS, you need to file with CTA to get a result through informal process first before it gets to formal process. The entire procedure can take up to 3 months for each and the result may not be same cause it's case-by-base and the reviewer of the case can be different.
To file an informal complaint with CTA, see here. Click through all of the pages to get to the online form for the informal complaint. Or click here.
To file a formal complaint after informal complaint has been closed, see here. Continue on to the next page to see the address or email address for the formal complaint.
The July 17th and 18th responses from LX can be found here:
Other Letters:
Feel free to add dates, flights, etc., in order to plan DOs, etc.
Aug 4: SFO-ICN (UA893)
Jason8612
Aug 5: ICN-SFO (UA892)
Jason8612
Aug 7: SFO-ICN (UA893)
Jason8612
Aug 11: ICN-NRT-ORD (UA78, UA882)
Jason8612
Aug 14: BOS-IAD-NRT-ICN (UA285, UA803, UA79)
Deltspygt
Aug 19: ICN-NRT-IAD-BOS (UA78, UA804, UA352)
Deltspygt
Oct 1: UA433-UA893
JeredF +1
Oct 8: UA892-UA242
JeredF +1
Oct 9: BOS-SFO-ICN (UA433, UA893)
BigJC
Oct 13: ICN-NRT-ORD-BOS (UA78, UA882, UA744)
BigJC
Oct 21: BOS-SFO UA433 to SFO-ICN UA893
Sterndogg +1
flyerdude88 (SFO - ICN portion only)
Oct 23: ICN - SFO UA 892
flyerdude88
Oct 27: ICN-SFO UA892 to SFO-BOS UA286
Sterndogg +1
Nov 05: BOS-ORD UA521, ORD-NRT UA881
kokonutz, I012609, BingoSF +1
Nov 11: ICN-SFO UA892, SFO-IAD UA727
kokonutz, I012609, BingoSF +1
Nov 26: BOS-SFO UA433, SFO-NRT UA837, NRT-ICN UA79
thepla
Nov 27: BOS-ORD-NRT-ICN (UA501, UA881, UA196)
BigJC+1
Nov 29: Planning 2 days in TPE, been to ICN
thepla
Dec 1: ICN-SFO UA892, SFO-ORD UA698, ORD-BOS UA961
thepla
Dec 1: ICN-NRT-IAD-BOS (UA78, UA804, UA822)
BigJC+1
Dec 15: BOS-SFO UA433, SFO-ICN UA893
songzm
Dec 25: BOS-IAD UA285, IAD-NRT UA803, NRT-ICN UA79
Dinoscool3 +2
Dec 30: ICN-SFO UA892, SFO-BOS UA444
songzm
Dec 31: ICN-SFO UA892, SFO-BOS UA770
Dinoscool3 +2
Jan 11: BOS-SFO UA1523, Jan 12: SFO-ICN UA893
margarita girl
Jan 12: BOS-SFO UA433, SFO-ICN UA893
Zebranz
14 Jan: BOS-SFO UA433 to SFO-ICN UA893
ORDOGG
19 Jan: ICN-SFO UA892 to SFO-ORD UA698 to ORD-BOS UA961
ORDOGG
Jan 22: ICN-SFO UA892 SFO-BOS UA500
margarita girl
Feb 5: ICN-SFO UA892 SFO-BOS UA242
Zebranz
CMB-DFW EY F
FARE IS GONE
FARE RULES (thanks to SQ421)
FRTLK Fare Rules (RT)
FOWLK Fare Rules (OW)
WHEN ARE YOU FLYING?
Feel free to add any additional cities you're leaving from!
Please slot yourselves in!!!
ex-CMB
Feb
Mar
8 - Darmajaya
12 - Thaidai
22 - Deadinabsentia
Apr
21 - SQ421, penegal, jozdemir
26 - tahsir21
May
28 - Upperdeck744
29 - bonsaisai (positioning flights SIN-CMB, DFW-ORD)
Jun
12 - lelee
Jul
7 - HansGolden +6
8 - arcticbull + 1
11 - bonsaisai's friend (positioning flights: SIN-CMB, DFW-MCI)
25 - Tycosiao
30 - bonsaisai's friend (positioning flights: MCI-DFW, CMB-SIN)
Aug
17 - DC777Fan
26 - Yi Yang
31 - dcas
Sep
Oct
Nov
8 - harryhv
29 - stephem+4
Dec
6 - roastpuff and (soon) Mrs. roastpuff , JFKEZE (UL Code-share)
7 - DWFI
10 - jlisi984 + dad (CMB-AUH-DFW)
21 - bonsaisai (positioning flights SIN-CMB, DFW-ORD)
ex-AUH
Jan
Feb
Mar
Apr
27 - RICHKLHS
May
Jun
29 - yerffej201
Jul
9 - HansGolden +6
27 - Tycosiao
Aug
Sep
Oct
Nov
30 - stephem+4 (to JFK)
Dec
7 - JFKEZE, DWFI [EY161 nonstop]
9 - roastpuff and (soon) Mrs. Roastpuff
ex-DFW
Jan
Feb
Mar
14 - Thaidai
15 - zainman +1
Apr
25 - SQ421, penegal, jozdemir
May
Jun
Jul
Aug
22 - arcticbull + 1
Sep
22 - bonsaisai (positioning flights ORD-DFW, CMB-SIN)
Oct
Nov
19 - harryhv->Paris
Dec
19 - Yi Yang, jona970318
24 - DWFI (EY160 nonstop)
26 - HansGolden +6 (CDG), LwoodY2K (AUH)
[PREM FARE GONE] RGN First class comes back again!!!!
#9706
Join Date: Dec 2004
Programs: UA-1K, MM, Hilton-Diamond, Marriott-Titanium
Posts: 4,432
#9707
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Seattle
Programs: AS MVPG 75K
Posts: 2,574
No. While LX did not publish its current tariff online at the time of this fare (which is a violation of Canadian law), the version filed with the CTA (which is nonetheless the legally enforceable version) contained Rule 005F which was used as the justification for canceling these tickets.
#9709
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: DFW
Programs: UA Pleb, HH Gold, PWP General Secretary
Posts: 23,199
No. While LX did not publish its current tariff online at the time of this fare (which is a violation of Canadian law), the version filed with the CTA (which is nonetheless the legally enforceable version) contained Rule 005F which was used as the justification for canceling these tickets.
#9710
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Anywhere I need to be.
Programs: OW Emerald, *A Gold, NEXUS, GE, ABTC/APEC, South Korea SES, eIACS, PP, Hyatt Diamond
Posts: 16,046
#9711
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Seattle
Programs: AS MVPG 75K
Posts: 2,574
It was a little more complicated than that, so I'll quote the relevant section from the June 18 Decision:
Analysis and findings
[34] Subsection 111(1) of the ATR provides that:
All tolls and terms and conditions of carriage, including free and reduced rate
transportation, that are established by an air carrier shall be just and reasonable
and shall, under substantially similar circumstances and conditions and with
respect to all traffic of the same description, be applied equally to all that traffic.
[35] To assess whether a term or condition of carriage is “unreasonable,” the Agency has traditionally
applied a balancing test, which requires that a balance be struck between the rights of passengers
to be subject to reasonable terms and conditions of carriage and the particular air carrier’s
statutory, commercial and operational obligations. This test was first established in
Decision No. 666-C-A-2001 (Anderson v. Air Canada) and was recently applied in
Decision No. 150-C-A-2013 (Forsythe v. Air Canada).
[36] An air carrier sets its terms and conditions of carriage on the basis of its own interests, without
any input from passengers. These terms and conditions may have their basis in purely
commercial requirements, and as such, there is no presumption that a tariff is reasonable.
[37] When balancing the passengers’ rights against the carrier’s obligations, the Agency must
consider the whole of the evidence and the submissions presented by both parties and make a
determination on the reasonableness or unreasonableness of the term or condition of carriage
based on which party has presented the more compelling and persuasive case.
[38] Swiss argues that an air carrier cannot be expected to transport passengers for a loss, as Swiss
has obligations to its employees and stakeholders. On the other hand, some of the complainants
argue that there is no consumer protection in Tariff Rule 5(F).
- 8 - DECISION NO. 239-C-A-2013
[39] The Agency has considered the submissions of the parties on this matter, and finds that the
complainants have presented a more compelling argument. Specifically, there is no protection
afforded to consumers under Tariff Rule 5(F), as Swiss can revoke tickets that it claims to
involve fares that have been erroneously quoted by reason of “technical failure.” Also, the
Agency finds that the obligation that Swiss alleges it has to honour to its employees and
stakeholders does not outweigh the interests of the complainants and other consumers to be
subject to reasonable terms and conditions of carriage.
[40] While Swiss argues that it should not be obligated to provide services for compensation that is
obviously erroneously published and commercially unfeasible, the Agency notes that Swiss
provides no submissions concerning the effect that honouring the erroneously posted fares would
have on Swiss’ commercial obligations. The Agency also notes that Tariff Rule 5(F) provides no
time period within which Swiss may cancel a ticket that has been erroneously quoted due to
technical error, nor does that Rule specify examples of situations that may lead to such an error.
Furthermore, Rule 5(F) imposes no obligations on Swiss to ensure that it takes reasonable steps
to prevent the issuance of erroneous fares.
[41] The Agency notes that it took Swiss six days to discover the erroneous fares, leaving at least one
complainant with less than three weeks to make alternative travel arrangements.
[42] Considering the above, the Agency is of the preliminary opinion that the broad, undefined
authority that Tariff Rule 5(F) affords Swiss is disadvantageous to consumers. Swiss has not
demonstrated to the Agency’s satisfaction that Rule 5(F) considers or balances the passengers’
rights to reasonable terms and conditions of carriage with Swiss’ statutory, commercial and
operational obligations. In light of the foregoing, the Agency finds, on a preliminary basis, that
Rule 5(F) is unreasonable within the meaning of subsection 111(1) of the ATR.
[34] Subsection 111(1) of the ATR provides that:
All tolls and terms and conditions of carriage, including free and reduced rate
transportation, that are established by an air carrier shall be just and reasonable
and shall, under substantially similar circumstances and conditions and with
respect to all traffic of the same description, be applied equally to all that traffic.
[35] To assess whether a term or condition of carriage is “unreasonable,” the Agency has traditionally
applied a balancing test, which requires that a balance be struck between the rights of passengers
to be subject to reasonable terms and conditions of carriage and the particular air carrier’s
statutory, commercial and operational obligations. This test was first established in
Decision No. 666-C-A-2001 (Anderson v. Air Canada) and was recently applied in
Decision No. 150-C-A-2013 (Forsythe v. Air Canada).
[36] An air carrier sets its terms and conditions of carriage on the basis of its own interests, without
any input from passengers. These terms and conditions may have their basis in purely
commercial requirements, and as such, there is no presumption that a tariff is reasonable.
[37] When balancing the passengers’ rights against the carrier’s obligations, the Agency must
consider the whole of the evidence and the submissions presented by both parties and make a
determination on the reasonableness or unreasonableness of the term or condition of carriage
based on which party has presented the more compelling and persuasive case.
[38] Swiss argues that an air carrier cannot be expected to transport passengers for a loss, as Swiss
has obligations to its employees and stakeholders. On the other hand, some of the complainants
argue that there is no consumer protection in Tariff Rule 5(F).
- 8 - DECISION NO. 239-C-A-2013
[39] The Agency has considered the submissions of the parties on this matter, and finds that the
complainants have presented a more compelling argument. Specifically, there is no protection
afforded to consumers under Tariff Rule 5(F), as Swiss can revoke tickets that it claims to
involve fares that have been erroneously quoted by reason of “technical failure.” Also, the
Agency finds that the obligation that Swiss alleges it has to honour to its employees and
stakeholders does not outweigh the interests of the complainants and other consumers to be
subject to reasonable terms and conditions of carriage.
[40] While Swiss argues that it should not be obligated to provide services for compensation that is
obviously erroneously published and commercially unfeasible, the Agency notes that Swiss
provides no submissions concerning the effect that honouring the erroneously posted fares would
have on Swiss’ commercial obligations. The Agency also notes that Tariff Rule 5(F) provides no
time period within which Swiss may cancel a ticket that has been erroneously quoted due to
technical error, nor does that Rule specify examples of situations that may lead to such an error.
Furthermore, Rule 5(F) imposes no obligations on Swiss to ensure that it takes reasonable steps
to prevent the issuance of erroneous fares.
[41] The Agency notes that it took Swiss six days to discover the erroneous fares, leaving at least one
complainant with less than three weeks to make alternative travel arrangements.
[42] Considering the above, the Agency is of the preliminary opinion that the broad, undefined
authority that Tariff Rule 5(F) affords Swiss is disadvantageous to consumers. Swiss has not
demonstrated to the Agency’s satisfaction that Rule 5(F) considers or balances the passengers’
rights to reasonable terms and conditions of carriage with Swiss’ statutory, commercial and
operational obligations. In light of the foregoing, the Agency finds, on a preliminary basis, that
Rule 5(F) is unreasonable within the meaning of subsection 111(1) of the ATR.
#9712
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: AU
Programs: former Olympic Airways Gold (yeah - still proud of that!)
Posts: 14,406
Given the sole reason for most pax taking this fare was to take advantage of the unintended fare I find that line of reasoning a little hard to comprehend.
I agree any organised travel to connect with the unintended fare should have been fully reimbursed. But I'm not sure how that translated, under contract law, to an outcome of specific performance.
#9713
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: DFW
Programs: UA Pleb, HH Gold, PWP General Secretary
Posts: 23,199
The thing I found interesting was the 6 day period to cancel left some pax with 'less than three weeks' to find alternative transport. Didn't the pax only have 4 weeks to find organise their travel plans in the first place? (6 days plus three weeks). What difference did one week make?
Given the sole reason for most pax taking this fare was to take advantage of the unintended fare I find that line of reasoning a little hard to comprehend.
I agree any organised travel to connect with the unintended fare should have been fully reimbursed. But I'm not sure how that translated, under contract law, to an outcome of specific performance.
Given the sole reason for most pax taking this fare was to take advantage of the unintended fare I find that line of reasoning a little hard to comprehend.
I agree any organised travel to connect with the unintended fare should have been fully reimbursed. But I'm not sure how that translated, under contract law, to an outcome of specific performance.
The point is you can't leave someone indefinitely in the lurch Say you and I had a contract and for whatever reason I had an excuse that allows me to unmake the contract. If I sit on that for some length of time and you rely on me sitting on it, at some point it becomes unreasonable for me to unmake the contract even if I have grounds to do so.
The airline can't just comeback whenever it wants and say "oops my bad, here's your money back." (Though I posit there was no mistake on LX's part to begin with) I think what the CTA is saying in that line is that if LX wants a seller's remorse clause it has to be in writing and it has to be fair to the buyer. I would be ok personally with a 48hr cancellation window for airlines and passengers a like.
On of the maxim's of US contract law is that the courts are not going to force two parties who have litigated to do business with each other. That is why there is a trend for cash awards over specific performance. So, if LX wants to cut me check for $8600.00, the cost of the next cheapest RGN-YUL ticket, they are more than welcome to. However, I think the marginal cost to LX is far cheaper for them to fly us then to pay someone else to fly us.
#9714
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: AU
Programs: former Olympic Airways Gold (yeah - still proud of that!)
Posts: 14,406
It doesn't have anything to do with specific performance, which is a remedy.
The point is you can't leave someone indefinitely in the lurch Say you and I had a contract and for whatever reason I had an excuse that allows me to unmake the contract. If I sit on that for some length of time and you rely on me sitting on it, at some point it becomes unreasonable for me to unmake the contract even if I have grounds to do so.
The airline can't just comeback whenever it wants and say "oops my bad, here's your money back." (Though I posit there was no mistake on LX's part to begin with) I think what the CTA is saying in that line is that if LX wants a seller's remorse clause it has to be in writing and it has to be fair to the buyer. I would be ok personally with a 48hr cancellation window for airlines and passengers a like.
On of the maxim's of US contract law is that the courts are not going to force two parties who have litigated to do business with each other. That is why there is a trend for cash awards over specific performance. So, if LX wants to cut me check for $8600.00, the cost of the next cheapest RGN-YUL ticket, they are more than welcome to. However, I think the marginal cost to LX is far cheaper for them to fly us then to pay someone else to fly us.
The point is you can't leave someone indefinitely in the lurch Say you and I had a contract and for whatever reason I had an excuse that allows me to unmake the contract. If I sit on that for some length of time and you rely on me sitting on it, at some point it becomes unreasonable for me to unmake the contract even if I have grounds to do so.
The airline can't just comeback whenever it wants and say "oops my bad, here's your money back." (Though I posit there was no mistake on LX's part to begin with) I think what the CTA is saying in that line is that if LX wants a seller's remorse clause it has to be in writing and it has to be fair to the buyer. I would be ok personally with a 48hr cancellation window for airlines and passengers a like.
On of the maxim's of US contract law is that the courts are not going to force two parties who have litigated to do business with each other. That is why there is a trend for cash awards over specific performance. So, if LX wants to cut me check for $8600.00, the cost of the next cheapest RGN-YUL ticket, they are more than welcome to. However, I think the marginal cost to LX is far cheaper for them to fly us then to pay someone else to fly us.
It seems, from Swiss's arguments they are also trying to make out an alternative case in equity:
- there was no doubt from the discussion on various bulletin boards that this was an unintended fare. And that Swiss, once aware of it, could withdraw it.
- did parties come 'with clean hands' to the transaction?
#9715
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: DFW
Programs: UA Pleb, HH Gold, PWP General Secretary
Posts: 23,199
indefinitely I agree - you get into the area of estoppel in that case.
It seems, from Swiss's arguments they are also trying to make out an alternative case in equity:
- there was no doubt from the discussion on various bulletin boards that this was an unintended fare. And that Swiss, once aware of it, could withdraw it.
- did parties come 'with clean hands' to the transaction?
It seems, from Swiss's arguments they are also trying to make out an alternative case in equity:
- there was no doubt from the discussion on various bulletin boards that this was an unintended fare. And that Swiss, once aware of it, could withdraw it.
- did parties come 'with clean hands' to the transaction?
Amazon.com doesn't charge until they ship to give themselves time to correct pricing errors. However, amazon.com still ships some goods a negative price and they don't go after the buyer.
LX's argument is this, "we put in automatic ticketing system and we were negligent about monitoring it, so we shouldn't be liable." That's a non-starter argument.
#9716
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: AU
Programs: former Olympic Airways Gold (yeah - still proud of that!)
Posts: 14,406
As a buyer I had no say in the price or the terms of the contract. I have clean hands I bought their ticket, at their rules, and their price.
Amazon.com doesn't charge until they ship to give themselves time to correct pricing errors. However, amazon.com still ships some goods a negative price and they don't go after the buyer.
LX's argument is this, "we put in automatic ticketing system and we were negligent about monitoring it, so we shouldn't be liable." That's a non-starter argument.
Amazon.com doesn't charge until they ship to give themselves time to correct pricing errors. However, amazon.com still ships some goods a negative price and they don't go after the buyer.
LX's argument is this, "we put in automatic ticketing system and we were negligent about monitoring it, so we shouldn't be liable." That's a non-starter argument.
whether or not that is relevant , or successful, is another matter, but you can see where they are coming from.
If your weekly commute from SFO-LAX was regularly (week in week out) priced at $450 and all of a sudden it was priced at $4500, what would you do? call the airline and ask them if it is an error. that's what most people would do (expecting those who were not members of a frequent flyer program who would just go for another airline).
it may be that equity is not even going to come into play. if the court finds there was no mistake (either within the terms of the tariff or under contract law itself), the contract might well stand as is. if the court finds the contract is not valid (for whatever reason) then an alternative argument for the existence of the contract might be made in equity. I think that is what Swiss is trying to head off in part II of their argument. 1000 tickets bought, in 24 hours, with warnings not to call the airline, and no further attempt at any stage for anyone to call the airline and check their tickets is potentially an argument to show that the parties are not entirely innocent.
well at least that's what I think Swiss is trying to make out.
I'm not agreeing with Swiss... just pointing out that it looks like they're trying to go down that path.
this is not a case of grandma arriving at the airport to make her once a year trip home for thanksgiving. these are tickets that by an large no one would even have bought it if was not for the unintended fare.
#9717
Suspended
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 465
Iberia sent us a long email with a sob story on why or how they are not liable for their own mistake. Quite comical and very onesided. Most of it based on their opinion and nonsense as if consumer protection laws do not apply to them and can do what and how they please. They are basically ignoring the CTA and alluding it does not matter what some agency in Canada says or does, the CTA was CC'd.
#9718
Iberia sent us a long email with a sob story on why or how they are not liable for their own mistake. Quite comical and very onesided. Most of it based on their opinion and nonsense as if consumer protection laws do not apply to them and can do what and how they please. They are basically ignoring the CTA and alluding it does not matter what some agency in Canada says or does, the CTA was CC'd.
Was your ticket issued by IB or another carrier?
#9720
Join Date: Dec 2004
Programs: UA-1K, MM, Hilton-Diamond, Marriott-Titanium
Posts: 4,432
Iberia sent us a long email with a sob story on why or how they are not liable for their own mistake. Quite comical and very onesided. Most of it based on their opinion and nonsense as if consumer protection laws do not apply to them and can do what and how they please. They are basically ignoring the CTA and alluding it does not matter what some agency in Canada says or does, the CTA was CC'd.