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[PREM FARE GONE] RGN First class comes back again!!!!

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Old Jun 19, 2013, 9:45 pm
FlyerTalk Forums Expert How-Tos and Guides
Last edit by: fti
People, please edit/use the wiki so same questions are not always asked.

The current CTA decision on the Yangon deal is only for tickets canceled by SWISS Airlines for the seven merged complaints/companions and tickets canceled by Jet Airways for one complainant and companions
- It's not about other carriers because each carrier submits different tariffs.
- If you are not one of the complainants or their companions above who were mentioned in the respective cases, you need to submit a case yourself for hearing.
- There's currently one person who is on Iberia for CTA decision, one can either wait for results or submit a complaint to CTA.

Result of the current case for LX in brief is:
- CTA found 5(F) in the tariff used to be unclear for canceling tickets on erroneously quoted fares.
- 5(F) is unjust and unreasonable and must be revised or taken down by July 9, 2013 (or SWISS can appeal by then)
- SWISS did not use its tariff correctly to cancel the tickets.
- SWISS must compensate one complainant's First Class ticket and any related expenses by July 18, 2013 provided with evidence.
- SWISS must transport other complainants (and their companions) in the original price charged with same booking class and routing by June 18, 2014.

Result of the current case for 9W in brief is:
- Tariff on file had no clauses for "erroneous fares" and was updated subsequently, which means it is not relevant to this event
- Therefore, 9W is to reinstate the tickets with a 1-year validity for transport between the same points and the same booking class.


CTA official news can be read here for general overview of the case.

Actual CTA case review can be found here for reference should you wish to file a complaint.

If you have a similar case that's with SWISS, you need to file with CTA to get a result through informal process first before it gets to formal process. The entire procedure can take up to 3 months for each and the result may not be same cause it's case-by-base and the reviewer of the case can be different.

To file an informal complaint with CTA, see here. Click through all of the pages to get to the online form for the informal complaint. Or click here.

To file a formal complaint after informal complaint has been closed, see here. Continue on to the next page to see the address or email address for the formal complaint.

The July 17th and 18th responses from LX can be found here:
Other Letters:


Feel free to add dates, flights, etc., in order to plan DOs, etc.

Aug 4: SFO-ICN (UA893)
Jason8612

Aug 5: ICN-SFO (UA892)
Jason8612

Aug 7: SFO-ICN (UA893)
Jason8612

Aug 11: ICN-NRT-ORD (UA78, UA882)
Jason8612

Aug 14: BOS-IAD-NRT-ICN (UA285, UA803, UA79)
Deltspygt

Aug 19: ICN-NRT-IAD-BOS (UA78, UA804, UA352)
Deltspygt

Oct 1: UA433-UA893
JeredF +1

Oct 8: UA892-UA242
JeredF +1

Oct 9: BOS-SFO-ICN (UA433, UA893)
BigJC

Oct 13: ICN-NRT-ORD-BOS (UA78, UA882, UA744)
BigJC

Oct 21: BOS-SFO UA433 to SFO-ICN UA893
Sterndogg +1
flyerdude88 (SFO - ICN portion only)

Oct 23: ICN - SFO UA 892
flyerdude88

Oct 27: ICN-SFO UA892 to SFO-BOS UA286
Sterndogg +1

Nov 05: BOS-ORD UA521, ORD-NRT UA881
kokonutz, I012609, BingoSF +1

Nov 11: ICN-SFO UA892, SFO-IAD UA727
kokonutz, I012609, BingoSF +1

Nov 26: BOS-SFO UA433, SFO-NRT UA837, NRT-ICN UA79
thepla

Nov 27: BOS-ORD-NRT-ICN (UA501, UA881, UA196)
BigJC+1

Nov 29: Planning 2 days in TPE, been to ICN
thepla

Dec 1: ICN-SFO UA892, SFO-ORD UA698, ORD-BOS UA961
thepla

Dec 1: ICN-NRT-IAD-BOS (UA78, UA804, UA822)
BigJC+1

Dec 15: BOS-SFO UA433, SFO-ICN UA893
songzm

Dec 25: BOS-IAD UA285, IAD-NRT UA803, NRT-ICN UA79
Dinoscool3 +2

Dec 30: ICN-SFO UA892, SFO-BOS UA444
songzm

Dec 31: ICN-SFO UA892, SFO-BOS UA770
Dinoscool3 +2

Jan 11: BOS-SFO UA1523, Jan 12: SFO-ICN UA893
margarita girl

Jan 12: BOS-SFO UA433, SFO-ICN UA893
Zebranz

14 Jan: BOS-SFO UA433 to SFO-ICN UA893
ORDOGG

19 Jan: ICN-SFO UA892 to SFO-ORD UA698 to ORD-BOS UA961
ORDOGG

Jan 22: ICN-SFO UA892 SFO-BOS UA500
margarita girl

Feb 5: ICN-SFO UA892 SFO-BOS UA242
Zebranz



CMB-DFW EY F

FARE IS GONE

FARE RULES (thanks to SQ421)
FRTLK Fare Rules (RT)
FOWLK Fare Rules (OW)

WHEN ARE YOU FLYING?
Feel free to add any additional cities you're leaving from!
Please slot yourselves in!!!

ex-CMB
Feb

Mar
8 - Darmajaya
12 - Thaidai
22 - Deadinabsentia

Apr
21 - SQ421, penegal, jozdemir
26 - tahsir21

May
28 - Upperdeck744
29 - bonsaisai (positioning flights SIN-CMB, DFW-ORD)

Jun
12 - lelee

Jul
7 - HansGolden +6
8 - arcticbull + 1
11 - bonsaisai's friend (positioning flights: SIN-CMB, DFW-MCI)
25 - Tycosiao
30 - bonsaisai's friend (positioning flights: MCI-DFW, CMB-SIN)

Aug
17 - DC777Fan
26 - Yi Yang
31 - dcas

Sep

Oct

Nov
8 - harryhv
29 - stephem+4

Dec
6 - roastpuff and (soon) Mrs. roastpuff , JFKEZE (UL Code-share)
7 - DWFI
10 - jlisi984 + dad (CMB-AUH-DFW)
21 - bonsaisai (positioning flights SIN-CMB, DFW-ORD)

ex-AUH
Jan

Feb

Mar

Apr
27 - RICHKLHS

May


Jun
29 - yerffej201

Jul
9 - HansGolden +6
27 - Tycosiao

Aug

Sep

Oct

Nov
30 - stephem+4 (to JFK)

Dec
7 - JFKEZE, DWFI [EY161 nonstop]
9 - roastpuff and (soon) Mrs. Roastpuff

ex-DFW
Jan

Feb

Mar
14 - Thaidai
15 - zainman +1

Apr
25 - SQ421, penegal, jozdemir

May

Jun

Jul

Aug
22 - arcticbull + 1

Sep
22 - bonsaisai (positioning flights ORD-DFW, CMB-SIN)


Oct

Nov
19 - harryhv->Paris

Dec
19 - Yi Yang, jona970318
24 - DWFI (EY160 nonstop)
26 - HansGolden +6 (CDG), LwoodY2K (AUH)
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[PREM FARE GONE] RGN First class comes back again!!!!

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Old Dec 17, 2013, 9:37 am
  #9706  
 
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Originally Posted by onlybeef42
Good find. Do note that this was effective October 15, 2012 which is after the tickets were issued.


I believe that LX also added their clause after the tickets were issued.
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Old Dec 18, 2013, 1:00 am
  #9707  
 
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Originally Posted by cruisr
I believe that LX also added their clause after the tickets were issued.
No. While LX did not publish its current tariff online at the time of this fare (which is a violation of Canadian law), the version filed with the CTA (which is nonetheless the legally enforceable version) contained Rule 005F which was used as the justification for canceling these tickets.
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Old Dec 18, 2013, 7:13 am
  #9708  
 
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Thanks for the clarification. I read thru so many pages of stuff I start to get everything confused.

Looking forward to February and the next chapter in this saga.
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Old Dec 18, 2013, 2:04 pm
  #9709  
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Originally Posted by BrewerSEA
No. While LX did not publish its current tariff online at the time of this fare (which is a violation of Canadian law), the version filed with the CTA (which is nonetheless the legally enforceable version) contained Rule 005F which was used as the justification for canceling these tickets.
The CTA found the term to be void for vagueness.
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Old Dec 18, 2013, 5:12 pm
  #9710  
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Originally Posted by cruisr
Thanks for the clarification. I read thru so many pages of stuff I start to get everything confused.

Looking forward to February and the next chapter in this saga.
They were even more boring than some of the books I had to read during postgraduate studies...
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Old Dec 19, 2013, 1:52 pm
  #9711  
 
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Originally Posted by colpuck
The CTA found the term to be void for vagueness.
It was a little more complicated than that, so I'll quote the relevant section from the June 18 Decision:

Analysis and findings

[34] Subsection 111(1) of the ATR provides that:

All tolls and terms and conditions of carriage, including free and reduced rate

transportation, that are established by an air carrier shall be just and reasonable

and shall, under substantially similar circumstances and conditions and with

respect to all traffic of the same description, be applied equally to all that traffic.

[35] To assess whether a term or condition of carriage is “unreasonable,” the Agency has traditionally

applied a balancing test, which requires that a balance be struck between the rights of passengers

to be subject to reasonable terms and conditions of carriage and the particular air carrier’s

statutory, commercial and operational obligations. This test was first established in

Decision No. 666-C-A-2001 (Anderson v. Air Canada) and was recently applied in

Decision No. 150-C-A-2013 (Forsythe v. Air Canada).

[36] An air carrier sets its terms and conditions of carriage on the basis of its own interests, without

any input from passengers. These terms and conditions may have their basis in purely

commercial requirements, and as such, there is no presumption that a tariff is reasonable.

[37] When balancing the passengers’ rights against the carrier’s obligations, the Agency must

consider the whole of the evidence and the submissions presented by both parties and make a

determination on the reasonableness or unreasonableness of the term or condition of carriage

based on which party has presented the more compelling and persuasive case.

[38] Swiss argues that an air carrier cannot be expected to transport passengers for a loss, as Swiss

has obligations to its employees and stakeholders. On the other hand, some of the complainants

argue that there is no consumer protection in Tariff Rule 5(F).

- 8 - DECISION NO. 239-C-A-2013

[39] The Agency has considered the submissions of the parties on this matter, and finds that the

complainants have presented a more compelling argument. Specifically, there is no protection

afforded to consumers under Tariff Rule 5(F), as Swiss can revoke tickets that it claims to

involve fares that have been erroneously quoted by reason of “technical failure.” Also, the

Agency finds that the obligation that Swiss alleges it has to honour to its employees and

stakeholders does not outweigh the interests of the complainants and other consumers to be

subject to reasonable terms and conditions of carriage.

[40] While Swiss argues that it should not be obligated to provide services for compensation that is

obviously erroneously published and commercially unfeasible, the Agency notes that Swiss

provides no submissions concerning the effect that honouring the erroneously posted fares would

have on Swiss’ commercial obligations. The Agency also notes that Tariff Rule 5(F) provides no

time period within which Swiss may cancel a ticket that has been erroneously quoted due to

technical error, nor does that Rule specify examples of situations that may lead to such an error.

Furthermore, Rule 5(F) imposes no obligations on Swiss to ensure that it takes reasonable steps

to prevent the issuance of erroneous fares.

[41] The Agency notes that it took Swiss six days to discover the erroneous fares, leaving at least one

complainant with less than three weeks to make alternative travel arrangements.

[42] Considering the above, the Agency is of the preliminary opinion that the broad, undefined

authority that Tariff Rule 5(F) affords Swiss is disadvantageous to consumers. Swiss has not

demonstrated to the Agency’s satisfaction that Rule 5(F) considers or balances the passengers’

rights to reasonable terms and conditions of carriage with Swiss’ statutory, commercial and

operational obligations. In light of the foregoing, the Agency finds, on a preliminary basis, that

Rule 5(F) is unreasonable within the meaning of subsection 111(1) of the ATR.
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Old Dec 19, 2013, 2:02 pm
  #9712  
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Originally Posted by BrewerSEA
It was a little more complicated than that, so I'll quote the relevant section from the June 18 Decision:
The thing I found interesting was the 6 day period to cancel left some pax with 'less than three weeks' to find alternative transport. Didn't the pax only have 4 weeks to find organise their travel plans in the first place? (6 days plus three weeks). What difference did one week make?

Given the sole reason for most pax taking this fare was to take advantage of the unintended fare I find that line of reasoning a little hard to comprehend.

I agree any organised travel to connect with the unintended fare should have been fully reimbursed. But I'm not sure how that translated, under contract law, to an outcome of specific performance.
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Old Dec 19, 2013, 2:41 pm
  #9713  
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Originally Posted by LHR/MEL/Europe FF
The thing I found interesting was the 6 day period to cancel left some pax with 'less than three weeks' to find alternative transport. Didn't the pax only have 4 weeks to find organise their travel plans in the first place? (6 days plus three weeks). What difference did one week make?

Given the sole reason for most pax taking this fare was to take advantage of the unintended fare I find that line of reasoning a little hard to comprehend.

I agree any organised travel to connect with the unintended fare should have been fully reimbursed. But I'm not sure how that translated, under contract law, to an outcome of specific performance.
It doesn't have anything to do with specific performance, which is a remedy.

The point is you can't leave someone indefinitely in the lurch Say you and I had a contract and for whatever reason I had an excuse that allows me to unmake the contract. If I sit on that for some length of time and you rely on me sitting on it, at some point it becomes unreasonable for me to unmake the contract even if I have grounds to do so.

The airline can't just comeback whenever it wants and say "oops my bad, here's your money back." (Though I posit there was no mistake on LX's part to begin with) I think what the CTA is saying in that line is that if LX wants a seller's remorse clause it has to be in writing and it has to be fair to the buyer. I would be ok personally with a 48hr cancellation window for airlines and passengers a like.

On of the maxim's of US contract law is that the courts are not going to force two parties who have litigated to do business with each other. That is why there is a trend for cash awards over specific performance. So, if LX wants to cut me check for $8600.00, the cost of the next cheapest RGN-YUL ticket, they are more than welcome to. However, I think the marginal cost to LX is far cheaper for them to fly us then to pay someone else to fly us.
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Old Dec 19, 2013, 3:08 pm
  #9714  
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Originally Posted by colpuck
It doesn't have anything to do with specific performance, which is a remedy.

The point is you can't leave someone indefinitely in the lurch Say you and I had a contract and for whatever reason I had an excuse that allows me to unmake the contract. If I sit on that for some length of time and you rely on me sitting on it, at some point it becomes unreasonable for me to unmake the contract even if I have grounds to do so.

The airline can't just comeback whenever it wants and say "oops my bad, here's your money back." (Though I posit there was no mistake on LX's part to begin with) I think what the CTA is saying in that line is that if LX wants a seller's remorse clause it has to be in writing and it has to be fair to the buyer. I would be ok personally with a 48hr cancellation window for airlines and passengers a like.

On of the maxim's of US contract law is that the courts are not going to force two parties who have litigated to do business with each other. That is why there is a trend for cash awards over specific performance. So, if LX wants to cut me check for $8600.00, the cost of the next cheapest RGN-YUL ticket, they are more than welcome to. However, I think the marginal cost to LX is far cheaper for them to fly us then to pay someone else to fly us.
indefinitely I agree - you get into the area of estoppel in that case.

It seems, from Swiss's arguments they are also trying to make out an alternative case in equity:

- there was no doubt from the discussion on various bulletin boards that this was an unintended fare. And that Swiss, once aware of it, could withdraw it.

- did parties come 'with clean hands' to the transaction?
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Old Dec 19, 2013, 3:57 pm
  #9715  
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Originally Posted by LHR/MEL/Europe FF
indefinitely I agree - you get into the area of estoppel in that case.

It seems, from Swiss's arguments they are also trying to make out an alternative case in equity:

- there was no doubt from the discussion on various bulletin boards that this was an unintended fare. And that Swiss, once aware of it, could withdraw it.

- did parties come 'with clean hands' to the transaction?
As a buyer I had no say in the price or the terms of the contract. I have clean hands I bought their ticket, at their rules, and their price.

Amazon.com doesn't charge until they ship to give themselves time to correct pricing errors. However, amazon.com still ships some goods a negative price and they don't go after the buyer.

LX's argument is this, "we put in automatic ticketing system and we were negligent about monitoring it, so we shouldn't be liable." That's a non-starter argument.
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Old Dec 19, 2013, 4:35 pm
  #9716  
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Originally Posted by colpuck
As a buyer I had no say in the price or the terms of the contract. I have clean hands I bought their ticket, at their rules, and their price.

Amazon.com doesn't charge until they ship to give themselves time to correct pricing errors. However, amazon.com still ships some goods a negative price and they don't go after the buyer.

LX's argument is this, "we put in automatic ticketing system and we were negligent about monitoring it, so we shouldn't be liable." That's a non-starter argument.
but Swiss is trying to make out that the parties were not completely innocent.

whether or not that is relevant , or successful, is another matter, but you can see where they are coming from.

If your weekly commute from SFO-LAX was regularly (week in week out) priced at $450 and all of a sudden it was priced at $4500, what would you do? call the airline and ask them if it is an error. that's what most people would do (expecting those who were not members of a frequent flyer program who would just go for another airline).

it may be that equity is not even going to come into play. if the court finds there was no mistake (either within the terms of the tariff or under contract law itself), the contract might well stand as is. if the court finds the contract is not valid (for whatever reason) then an alternative argument for the existence of the contract might be made in equity. I think that is what Swiss is trying to head off in part II of their argument. 1000 tickets bought, in 24 hours, with warnings not to call the airline, and no further attempt at any stage for anyone to call the airline and check their tickets is potentially an argument to show that the parties are not entirely innocent.

well at least that's what I think Swiss is trying to make out.

I'm not agreeing with Swiss... just pointing out that it looks like they're trying to go down that path.

this is not a case of grandma arriving at the airport to make her once a year trip home for thanksgiving. these are tickets that by an large no one would even have bought it if was not for the unintended fare.
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Old Dec 19, 2013, 9:02 pm
  #9717  
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Iberia sent us a long email with a sob story on why or how they are not liable for their own mistake. Quite comical and very onesided. Most of it based on their opinion and nonsense as if consumer protection laws do not apply to them and can do what and how they please. They are basically ignoring the CTA and alluding it does not matter what some agency in Canada says or does, the CTA was CC'd.
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Old Dec 19, 2013, 9:16 pm
  #9718  
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Originally Posted by ChuckMango
Iberia sent us a long email with a sob story on why or how they are not liable for their own mistake. Quite comical and very onesided. Most of it based on their opinion and nonsense as if consumer protection laws do not apply to them and can do what and how they please. They are basically ignoring the CTA and alluding it does not matter what some agency in Canada says or does, the CTA was CC'd.
Are you able to post the text of the email?

Was your ticket issued by IB or another carrier?
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Old Dec 19, 2013, 9:23 pm
  #9719  
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Originally Posted by danger
Are you able to post the text of the email?

Was your ticket issued by IB or another carrier?
Ticket issued by IB, you got PM
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Old Dec 19, 2013, 9:36 pm
  #9720  
 
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Originally Posted by ChuckMango
Iberia sent us a long email with a sob story on why or how they are not liable for their own mistake. Quite comical and very onesided. Most of it based on their opinion and nonsense as if consumer protection laws do not apply to them and can do what and how they please. They are basically ignoring the CTA and alluding it does not matter what some agency in Canada says or does, the CTA was CC'd.
Were they asking you to forget about the whole thing or telling you that they are ignoring the whole thing?
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