DCA Curfew
 

Does DCA still have a curfew. UA 1211 ORD-DCA delayed 12 hours till tomorrow morning.

Yes, but airlines sometimes still land after hours and deal with the penalty. DL had an MD90 arrive from DTW at 1:27a this morning.

A 12 hour delay sounds like something more than just the curfew issue.

No. Technically, it never has. National Airport opened in 1941, and has operated ever since as a 24/7 facility. It did, however, adopt the Nighttime Noise Rule in the late 1970's (IIRC), which forbade operation of certain aircraft between 10pm and 659am. I moved into an apartment in Crystal City - less than a mile from the north end of the runway - and recall the parade of takeoffs beginning at 7am every morning.

Everyone referred to it as a curfew, because the jets at that time exceeded the allowable decibel levels, and, thus, flights stopped landing at 10pm and takeoffs didn't happen until 7am. But......

The airlines - and passengers - hated the curfew which often meant flights diverted to Dulles. And Boeing and Douglas developed hush kits that allowed jets to land and take off more quietly.So the FAA made it clear that jets that met noise standards could operate 24.7 at DCA.

Now, with the changes in aviation technology, certain full-size jets regularly land at DCA late into the night. And they take off as early as 515am, rattling windows and making life miserable for Georgetown residents who are directly under one of the flight pads but are prevented by Historic Preservation standards from making affordable soundproofing improvements to their homes.

So, no. There's never been a curfew. But there have been restrictions. And the airlines have found ways around the restrictions.

No: http://www.flyreagan.com/dca/dca-nighttime-noise-rule

Note: It is important to note that an operational curfew has never existed at Reagan National

Maybe you mean UA 2012 (a 738)...originally scheduled to arrive at 11:59 pm? If they are saying the 12+ hour delay - now scheduled to depart at 9:30am tomorrow - is due to "curfew" rules at DCA that is BS.

I've landed at almost all hours at DCA (sometimes after 2am).

http://www.flyreagan.com/dca/dca-nighttime-noise-rule

-FlyerBeek

A clever ruse to avoid compensation?

It's amazing how many people believe this old wives tale. ;)

DOT complaint perhaps?

I have landed as late as 3:30am. AA actual has a scheduled flight at times that departs DFW around midnight and lands at DCA at around 3:45am.

Here is AA schedule for July 16, 2017

AA 2293 DFW-DCA 8:15pm - 12:13 am (daily except Sat)
AA 2690 DFW-DCA 11:50pm - 3:49am (Sun only)

No more arrival curfew at DCA. It used to be 6am to 10pm. That's no longer the case.
Departure curfew is still in place for night departures. Any plane taking off after 10pm has to deal with the penalties. The only exceptions are delayed flights because of the weather.

I used to wake up by the sound of DL MD-88 departing right at 6am. Now I'm hearing planes depart as early as 5am.

I think part of the reason why the curfew was removed is that there are no more prop planes flying in/out of DCA (except FAA J32 on a twice daily shuttle to ACY), and all the MD-88s and MD-82s are not being used at DCA anymore.
All other planes are compliant with the noise level rules.

If you look at the DCA schedule, arrivals are scheduled up to 12 midnight. The two noisiest planes are DL MD-90s arriving at 9:40pm and 11:40pm from MSP. However, MD-90s meet the noise standards.

As for departures, the last plane out of DCA on schedule is AA A319 going to RSW at 10pm. No later departures from DCA.

Wrong. There never was a curfew. From the DCA website:

This urban legend is strong. ;)

Actually there was. From the website you can see that it wasn't officially called curfew. However, that's what it was.

"In the early 1980s, louder aircraft operating at Reagan National prompted the FAA - the original airport operator - to impose nighttime noise restrictions between 10 p.m. and 6:59 a.m. which became known as the DCA Nighttime Noise Rule. The DCA Nighttime Noise Rule is not an operational curfew at Reagan National."

When the curfew was in place, there was one gimmick that airlines came up with to avoid missing the 10pm cut off time. If the airline contacted the tower before 10pm they could still arrive, even when the flight landed after 10pm.

Airlines running late, still flying over Blue Ridge, would contact the tower at DCA to request landing clearance. As long as they've called before 10pm they were allowed to land.

Where did the OP ever infer that their delay was being attributed to a "curfew" by UA?

BTW, I searched UA 1211 & it is DEN-PIT. Looks like the OP means UA 2012 which was delayed 12 hours. Isn't that a charter??

Could pilots call DCA tower from the ramp at ORD?

From your post:

"The DCA Nighttime Noise Rule is not an operational curfew at Reagan National."

My first arrival at DCA was at 1am in 1991.

There is no operational curfew at DCA.

No, vhf radio communication range is roughly 50-200 miles depending on weather conditions.

Maybe the confusion is that (as you quoted above) there was a nighttime restriction on loud aircraft. This was back in the day when 727's dominated at DCA. I remember when the "quiet" stage-3 MD-80s came out and were allowed to land at night. Hard to believe we ever considered the mad dogs to be "quiet"! Anyway, today all aircraft meet the noise restrictions so the rule is moot (if it even still exists).

Not sure where you heard this but it is most certainly "urban legend". Aircraft don't receive landing clearance until after they are on final approach (typically <15 miles out) and are handed off from the final approach controller to the tower. The tower does not issue landing clearance until the controller assures it is safe to do so (due to other traffic, airport/runway conditions, etc.) which would be impossible from such a distance.

UAL calls it a curfew for DCA....its in our Jepp charts under the heading "Curfew hours and operating restrictions" It is aircraft specific and is further restricted based on aircraft weight for both arrivals and takeoffs betwen 2200-0700

"Be advised that ATC clearance does not waive curfew restrictions"

Is a plane louder if it lands heavy? More engine thrust on approach?

I had a situation like this where we were delayed departing for DCA and so were "overweight due to the curfew" and they needed to get 12 people off the plane.

Not a pilot, but I'd imagine the extra thrust needed for the extra weight would make a big difference in noise.

all else being equal, an aircraft would require more thrust the heavier it is since it would require a higher speed to generate the lift needed to fly.

Think of your car going up a steep hill on the highway. To maintain 55 MPH going uphill the engine needs to work harder (higher rpm). Now do that while towing a trailer behind it. The RPM's would be even higher to maintain 55 mph. More weight= harder working engine. And while an approach would need less thrust then level flight or a climb, to maintain the minimum speed a certain amount of thrust is required. Those speeds are based on the weight of the aircraft.

Even a heavy plane could land with the engines at idle speed, but the slope would be higher in order to provide enough airspeed to keep it from stalling. They normally don't do that because if the approach says to land at, say 3 degrees, then if the plane is heavier, you will need some thrust to keep the plane from sinking faster than that.

This is a debate about less than nothing, e.g. semantics.

Sure, there's no operational curfew, but a carrier still can't operate an aircraft which doesn't meet noise restriction standards after hours.

If you are in one of those aircraft which doesn't and your flight is cancelled/delayed, whether it's a "curfew" or a "noise restriction" is a less than interesting distinction without a meaning.

In my ~ 40 years of using National/Reagan and staying in Crystal City, I've seen light planes fly in and out all night long. Always figured the curfew's/restriction's other, unpublicized purpose was to clear the runways for congress, government and military executives who prefer it over Andrews.

So, are the mainline airline (mostly AA) flights that are scheduled to land in the middle of the night (3am) somehow meeting the noise resttrictions or is the airline just paying the penalty.

I could be mistaken, but I seem to recall UA previosuly running very early morning scheduled arrivals (IAH-DCA) during peak travel times (at the end of Thanksgiving weekend).

-FlyerBeek

Simply wrong.

As discussed in this thread:

• neither the FAA nor MWAA (the operator at DCA) currently restrict nighttime operations by any of the modern aircraft that operate scheduled service
• at one time, there was a noise restriction for very loud aircraft that used to operate at DCA (e.g. 727, 737-200, etc.) but that has long ago become irrelevant due to modern aircraft engine technology

There is no limitation on nighttime operations at DCA in 2017 by scheduled operators! If anyone believes differently, please point me to the FAR or MWAA policy.

Not sure about the Jepp charts that UALPilotDC mentioned. Perhaps this is a UA-imposed restriction? If this is in the standard FAA DCA charts could you please show where?

We can all agree SNA has a curfew, right? Where is that shown in its charts?? https://flightaware.com/resources/ai...SNA/procedures

SNA might have a curfew, but DCA doesn't.

http://www.flyreagan.com/dca/dca-nighttime-noise-ruleIt is not called a curfew but the effect is similar. Certain airplanes, sometimes only when above certain weights, will be fined for operating outside the stated hours.

Operationally it is treated the same as a curfew. Many will use the term "curfew" to describe the situation. I'm not sure I see the importance of correcting them.

We can go round and round as many times as you want, but DCA's operating authority (MWAA) makes it clear that the unique DCA noise rules --- which are grandfathered --- sweep in some Class III aircraft.

The carriers operate under these rules. Call it a curfew or a noise restriction as you will. It is a government rule which limits access for certain aircraft at certain hours.

It's a fool's errand to keep arguing about reality.

http://www.flyreagan.com/dca/dca-nighttime-noise-rule

My point was that flyer703 tried to use lack of designation on approach charts as evidence. That fails when faced with an airport that does have a curfew and also doesn't have it listed in the charts.

As for the semantics of what to call it, I don't really care. We've also veered incredibly far from this having anything to do with UA.

seems clear to me

No - there effectively is no "government rule". The 1980's restrictions are no longer relevant due to quieter aircraft.

There are no operational nighttime restrictions at DCA in 2017. Period!

I live just south of the airport and hear aircraft departing and arriving ALL THE TIME outside of the old "curfew" times. (5:15am to well after midnight)

I have no idea about SNA operations and didn't mean to imply anything about them in any of these posts.

Then what do you call this statement from the airport's web site?

"However, the Airports Authority still audits, investigates and enforces the Nighttime Noise Rule to ensure aircraft are in compliance. Non-compliant aircraft may be fined up to $5,000 per violation by the Airports Authority."

Perhaps that's simply in relation to the precise following of noise reduction procedures afterhours (one of the primary reasons the River Visual 19 exists and is so heavily used when weather conditions permit).

-FlyerBeek

It's so a 727 charter can't take off at 1am. Sorry, I was missing one word from what you quoted...let me fix that:

There are no scheduled operational nighttime restrictions at DCA in 2017. Period!

That is a good point also. DCA does have noise abatement procedures and under VMC and there are surely penalties for violations.

I was told that they can't land a full 738 after 10pm due to the noise restrictions/curfew. They DB'ed twelve people to lighten the plane - UA could just be wrong but I'm skeptical that the noise rule has *no* impact on operations.

It also applies to the following UAL aircraft; 737-900, 737-800, A319, A320, 757-200, and 757-300.

The 737-900 can not operate during the restricted hours. The other listed types are restricted only when over specified weights.

I used to live in an apartment complex at the first traffic light on the GW parkway south of DCA. Woke at 7:00:00 every morning. I told people I had a Pratt & Whitney alarm clock. :p