BIG CHANGES FOR MARRIOT REWARDS!
 

No more 713 714 etc. Check out Marriotts web sites new reward structure! The changes are not for the better. Almost all rewards now require more points. See link http://www.marriottrewards.com/

Not only more points for the most part, but no longer will you get the 60,000 x 2 as before unless you are willing to go the premium for it.
Called Marriott today to ask a question and agent said they have understood the best benefit (?) of it to be the ability to book travel on a reward by using the 50% premium points so that as long as a hotel has a room available you will be able to use a reward. (Albeit a greater point reward!!!)
We do have until July 31 to order any old certs, including weekend stays, etc. and those will subsequently be good for a year.
Certainly see the potential for lots of confusion here.

They can place all of the sugar coating on this that they want...this new program certainly removes tremendous value from the old program. If this is Marriott's idea of saving money at the expense of their best customers, it will definitely hurt them in the long run. Marriott must remember that their best customers ALL know the value of their points before and after. These are the wrong people to go out and pull the wool over the eyes...especially in an upcoming recession where gasoline prices and energy prices will cause people to travel less and budget more.

Marriott's plan goes against all forms of conventional wisdom...and they will most likely pay for it in more ways than one.

The 5 night stay that I booked at the Sydney Renaissance for August would now cost 110k points instead of 75k. That's almost 50% more!

I have several award stays booked for later this year and early next year. I'm glad I got them booked before these changes take effect. Also, I'm sure there will be a rush to order certs by 7/31 under the old award levels.

I do notice some new rewards that may have value to some--Southwest credits are now available as a reward, as are 25k and 50k blocks of miles, and guest room stays at Vacation Club (used to, you had to go for a villa).

And a points decrease on at least one award--most Courtyards appear to be Category 2, which means the one-night reward there is down from 11,000 to 10,000, and it's now valid 7 nights a week (weekends only before, as I recall). Not to mention all categories have any number of nights from one to seven available now, and all valid regardless of the night of the week.

So it is not accurate to state that all the changes are bad.

There's going to be consensus on this one. This is about the worst news possible. Could one of you (possibly pjs as shown above) help me find where it's stated that we have until 7/31/01 to redeem for certificates under the old program?

It would make me feel a little less dumb (for not having redeemed already) if I knew I could still use that better award schedule, even if only for a little while longer.

Thanks,

TravelDave

All I have to say is that I really miss the 200k and 425k awards!!! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

I wonder if they are going to reduce the hotel award capacity so they will force us to use the 50% extra awards!

That was my first thought too (suspicious mind, I guess). Doing my own calculation on a trip I'm taking next week (Rome), I would have used 250,000 points vs 200,00 points. That calculates to a 20% increase.

While all changes may not be bad, in my opinion the net effect of the changes seem to be a big negative.

Out of curiousity, other than the loss of the car in the "ol' 713", when did Marriott significantly change their Rewards program last? Thanks.

Time to sound off.

Marriott has not only massively devalued its point program (like Hyatt, Hilton and the others have recently), but still maintains the most inflexible award program for award redemption, because of their ridiculous "certificate" system, which requires planning weeks out - no last-minute trips allowed!

I don't see how anyone can find "increased value and flexibility" in the changes that were just made. What marketing schmuck writes this material?

1. Whereas Marriott points were always valued in the 0.8 - 1.0 cent range previously, the inclusion of airline awards values them at about 0.4 cents. More options = less value.

2. Marriott gift certificate awards range from 0.3 to 0.5 cents. More options = less value.

3. The Terms and Conditions mentions that the old Award Chart can be used for a few more months, but it is not made available on the web site. Lousy.

4. Car rewards: 3 weekend days in a rental car (value = under $100 anywhere) for 30,000 points? More options = less value.

5-15. The other classes of merchandise awards are just as devalued.

16. For those of you who want to find out what hotels are in each category, the web site requires 50 manual searches, one for each state. Not as bad as Hilton, which requires 250 searches to do the same thing.

17. The "50% additional" points for "Anytime" awards is unfortunately the way the entire industry is going, and gives them an excuse to effectively devalue the awards another 50%. I'm willing to bet that there will be properties (just like airline flights) that have ZERO availability at the lower point levels and that REQUIRE the more expensive award.

More ranting later - I need a break.

"Rewards offered in the Rewards Update 2000 are available for order until July 31, 2001. They can be redeemed for 12 months following issue." That quote appears in the Validity section of the revised Terms and Conditions.

The 713, 714 and other familiar awards are detailed in the "Rewards Update 2000 booklet."

"I don't see how anyone can find "increased value and flexibility" in the changes that were just made. What marketing schmuck writes this material?"

One on loan from Delta, probably. Didn't we all request these changes? http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/rolleyes.gif

There are a few "fig leaves" that Marriott can point to and say, See, we've lowered the points needed for THAT, so don't complain" but by and large, it's not too nice.

And yet another "improvement" to the website that makes it much more hassle to find the information you want.

No question that the changes are bad. But finding which hotels are in which category is not quite as tough as you suggest.

With the new "Rewards Category" grid in front of you, merely click on one of the numbered (1 through 7) links on the left side of the grid. Clicking on "7", for example, brings up all 10 category 7 hotels in London, Paris, New York, Boston, San Francisco and Scottsdale. Clicking on the "6", brings up approximately 50 hotels around the world, including most of the major resorts.

You can get to the grid (also, variously called the "Marriott Hotel Rewards" page) from several locations, including the Terms and Conditions page and the Hotel Rewards page.

Do I need to have a reservation or know my destination hotel BEFORE I order my cert., or can I decide later?

You can reserve first.

Sorry for previous post.You can reserve and ask for certificate or get certificate and wait to reserve.The danger in getting certificate is having it expire. The old certificate is only good for one year and non renewable after 7/31/02.

No, but the moronic structure of the Marriott reward system goes like this:

1. Order a 5-night award for a Level 3 property.
2. Certificate arrives in mail weeks later.
3. During this time, you find out the Level 3 property is not available, or your plans have changed.
4. Return Level 3 5-night award.
5. Get award redeposited.
6. Order a different award.
7. Repeat until several weeks before trip, then forget it and stay at another hotel chain that has last-minute award redemption.

I just looked at the only two Marriott awards that I've ever been able to book to see if they changed. One award went from 14,000 to 20,000 points (43% increase). The other would have increased from 19,000 to 28,000 points (47% increase).

From the website: "A new Hotel Reward structure offers more options, greater flexibility and better value."

If I order a certificate under the old program (712, 713 or 714) I assume the new "levels" shouldn't matter since these are "choice" awards. I'd think that they would be good at the Paris Marriott or the Newark Marriott, right?

Also, in the "new" www.marriott.com site, if I want to check availability with awards, they tell you "For Marriott Rewards Redemptions, click here to select a hotel reward before checking availability"
But when I do this, ONLY the new awards are displayed. But if I just do as I always did and checked off the award box and then click on "check rates and availability",
it shows available rooms (Paris Marriott).

Can I still book the OLD awards this way, or
do I need to call the Marriott Customer No-Service number for them to say "sorry, no availability"?

Now I am glad I left the "Best Business Hotel" option blank when I voted for the Freddies. I would feel completely insulted if I gave my vote to Marriott so they could do this to their best customers.

If this is a "bottom line" decision for Marriott, they have not seen anything yet! I realize Marriott can terminate the Marriott Rewards program at any time...and their customers can terminate Marriott from their business plans even sooner. You just do not take away from your best customers...and the 25,000 point promo is just not good enough to justify this poor behavior from Marriott's Marketing Department. In fact, if I read that correctly, you need to have 15 separate "stays" in Marriott properties to qualify for the 25,000 points...not 15 nights as they normally had for their bonuses.

Taking your best customers for granted will only take you so far...we will see what happens after this. I can only feel like a schmo so long before I take my business and my company's money elsewhere...and I have been a Marriott "Honored" Rewards member since early 1985.

I've just E-Mailed my two cents in to Marriott telling whoever cares that I fully intend to cash in my points, sell my two Marriott vacation club properties, cancel my VISA card, and take my business elsehere, and get out of this silliness. And that was after I "cooled off." Call these changes what you want, but to me, it's just the latest example of Marriott's arrogance towards those of us who have been loyal customers, often paying higher prices than their competitors, just out of the sense of loyalty. I think the beginning of the end came when Marriott expanded their rewards program with their economy units (i.e., Fairfield Inns, etc.) What a bummer!

I think that you can just check the award box and continue with your reservation because you do have a valid certificate. I think the "click here to select a hotel reward" is so that you can figure out how many points the new system is going to require for that particular hotel. I just played with it and that was my take on why the "click here to select a hotel reward" is on that screen since it takes you to their little grid.

No, that is a 25% increase, not a 20% increase!

I was looking at that too, and was surprised that it and the JW HKG are listed as Category 6, whereas the 2 London properties other than the Grosvenor are listed as a 7 (I think the new Ren will be a 7, as well, but it is not listed).

Then, what used to cost 200,000 now is 250,000!

My only question:

Does a 7 night hotel only stay at the Rome Marriott now cost more or less, than before.

I can guess the answer, but can someone tell me by how much?

Tino,

Great analysis -- and quick, too! You saved me a lot of work. Thanks.

Bruce

I think a 7-night only stay at the Rome Marriott would now cost 5000 points more (130k vs. 125k before).

Thanx! That ain't too bad.

While we're all fired up...

I just called and asked for an Anytime Award on a property (New Orleans Marriott) that has a few rooms for sale (at $300+/night), but long sold out of award rooms (for JazzFest).

No dice.

I got several excuses, which started off as "no awards left - try another date", then went to "these awards aren't available in the Marriott program yet", which switched to "it won't let me book it" and finally I got a "I guess our system isn't compatible with the property's system to override it - call again some other time in the future".

Who fires up a new award system without testing and training?

A side question: does anyone have a listing of the old award schedule? I threw out my paper copy, but "for my convenience" it has been eliminated from the website.

"No, that is a 25% increase, not a 20% increase!"

See, they have me so flustered that I can't even make a simple, yea real simple, calculation! I do have the 1998 and 1999 addendum books for the Reward program. What are you looking for?

Tino and others -

FWIW, I have a complete copy of the soon-to-be-deceased award schedule. It consists of the 1998 Guide to Marriott Rewards, the 1999 Addendum to 1998 Guide to Marriott Rewards and the Rewards Update 2000.

Have at me and I'll answer as many questions as I can get to.

I have since run out of the starwood gold card. There're others in the Starwood forum who might still have these cards.

[This message has been edited by mntblue (edited 05-12-2001).]

I've been trying to access the hotel category function for the past half hour without success. I keep getting this message:
Due to extremely high traffic, the web page you have requested is not available

Extremely high traffic at 3am EST??!!

Is there any other way to check which hotels are listed under each category?

How to list the hotels in each category:

Category 7 Hotel List: http://www.marriottrewards.com/award...els.asp?Tier=7

Part of the URL contains "Tier=7". To view other categories, just change the "7" to the category you want to view in the address bar of your browser and press enter. In Internet Explorer, if the address bar isn't visible, just click on "view/toolbars/address bar" from the menu buttons.

Here's an overly simplified summary of the categories.

Cat 1 - consists of Fairfield and Townplace Suites properties.
Cat 2 - mostly Courtyards plus some others
Cat 3 - mixed bag of Marriotts, Courtyards, Renn., Fairfield Inns etc.
Cat 4 - Mostly Marriott (including SFO), a couple of JWs, a bunch of international properties.
Cat 5 - higher end Marriotts including Renn Parc 55, a bunch of international properties and JWs some Courtyards here too.
Cat 6 - Hawaii and high end Marriotts and several international Marriotts and Ren. hotels.
Cat 7 - Marriott Camelback Inn, SF Fishermans Wharf (!), Boston Long Wharf, JW New York, NY Marquis, Ren. NY, Paris CE, London CH, London GS and London MA.


Marriott Rewards: If you're listening, PLEASE post the hotel category tables on one page, sorted by location, like Hyatt does. That method is much easier to select a hotel by category and location.

bagold: They claim on the website that they aren't changing the number of award rooms available. (It's in the hotel t&c I believe. Sorry for not posting the link to it.) Of course that's difficult to verify one way or the other.

No mention anywhere if the hotel certs can be turned back in for miles .. at least not that I could determine.

I think the no capacity awards are a good thing. I'm not too happy about the rest of it.

At some point we need to compare the cost and point value of the SPG awards with the new no capacity awards.

The new 3 property HI and London awards are nice, but expensive.

I haven't done the math, but the all-inclusive awards still seem to be a better value than the separate awards. Of course, this depends on the point value of the hotel portion of the cert if there is any.

Meanwhile, I'm calling to redeem my 713 tommorrow morning.

-David



[This message has been edited by LIH Prem (edited 04-25-2001).]

David --

Unless you are going to use your 713 cert quite soon, shouldn't you wait until some time closer to 7/31 so that you have that much more time to acquire more points and/or have that much more time re the 1 year expiration of the hotel cert?

One might be able to obtain a better award and/or at least give them more time for the hotel award, if they need to cancel their present plans.

With Marriott's "kind" extension through 7/31, do you think that would include the ability to buy 10% of the required points for the 713 award? I'm sitting at 167K, expect about 5K for my trip to Sydney in 2 weeks, probably can get another 5K if I spend one night in SYD on my way back (the 2 weekend stay bonus) and should be able to transfer 5K AMEX miles. Of course, Marriott may disallow this sort of activity (point purchase or AMEX xfers).

OK, let's have at it!

Our first guest is a super-frequent traveler looking for a high-end hotel in the Buckhead area of Atlanta for three nights. Maryann Marriott picks the JW. Category 4. If there are no award rooms available, the cost is 82,500 points, and since she gets 13 per dollar as a Platinum Elite, the spend is $6,346.

Stephen Starwood, meanwhile, stays at the Sheraton, Category 3 (there is a W in Atlanta, but it's way out in Dunwoody). 21,000 points there for three nights, and since he's a Starwood Platinum, he gets three points per dollar, and had to spend $7,000 to get them. Advantage Marriott.

These two also redeemed hotel points for the flight. 25,000 miles or 16 Southwest credits will cost 70,000 Marriott points ($5,384) or 20,000 Starpoints ($6,667).

For our second adventure, our travelers will be vacationers, heading to Fan Fair in Nashville for five nights and looking for moderate quality. Maryann, who is now only a Silver, goes with the Renaissance or the Downtown Courtyard, both category 3. This stay will run 94,500 points, which cost $8,590 at the rate of 11 points per dollar (we presume that she stays in Marriotts and Renaissances half the time). Another option within a little more than a mile is the Courtyard West End, a category 2, for 64,500 points and a cost of $5,864.

Stephen will be staying at the Sheraton Downtown, which is Starwood Category 2. This will cost 18,000 Starpoints, and here, the huge gap between Starwood's basic and gold levels comes into play. If he is gold, the points will cost $6,000, and Starwood has the upper hand in downtown--those extra $136 over West End will save him $14.50 in city bus fares http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif. If he isn't (and their qualification is ten stays, for this traveler harder than the 15 nights of Marriott Silver), the points will cost $9,000, and Marriott is better.

Finally, the low end. Now our travelers will be no-status ones just looking for a place to crash before a Saturday morning flight from Hartsfield. Maryann finds the Category 1 Fairfield ATL, and spends 11,250 points which cost $1,125. Stephen notes that the only Category 1 is all the way on the other end of town, and is forced to the category 2 Four Points, which will cost 3,000 points or $1,500. If there were a Category 1 there, it would cost only 2,000 points or $1,000, but Atlanta is far from alone in having Marriott-1 and Starwood-2 as the lowest hotels in an airport area, and the comparison swings even farther to Marriott if it's a weeknight or the capacity controls haven't kicked in (and an airport hotel on the weekend is a very unlikely place to have any difficulties).

I think this demonstrates that Starwood is, shall we say, overrated when it comes to its awards.

Turning to the second issue, the all inclusives--let's say I'm headed off for a week-long honeymoon in Montréal. The best Marriott is the Renaissance du Parc, a Category 4, and two front-cabin tickets on Air Canada cost 50,000 Aéroplan miles (gotta love those short-haul rewards). The appropriate package is an 80, which costs 165,000 points.

Separately, the seven nights are 105,000 points, and to get 50,000 miles will run another 125,000 for a cumulative 230,000, so yes, the package is a far better deal even before considering the car (worthless to me, since I can't drive, but of value to some, I imagine) and the phone card ($18 plus tax at Kmart).

(At Starwood, the cost would be 26,000 points for the Centre Sheraton and 40,000 for the miles, total 66,000, and even under the most Starwood-favorable assumptions--gold v. Marriott basic--that's more expensive than 165k Marriott.)

Edited to address issues raised in a later post and to correct for my stupidity in forgetting that ATL-yyz-YUL is a vol court-courrier for Air Canada.

[This message has been edited by silverpie (edited 04-25-2001).]

msb -

Your plan should work, assuming you give yourself enough time to get all of the points recorded in your account before the July 31 deadline. That would be the most likely hang-up.

Both the old and new Terms and Conditions have provisions for purchasing points. And nowhere is there any stated limitation along the lines of, "Awards under the old points structure can be requested through July 31, 2001, but only by utilizing points earned or purchased as of April 24, 2001."

Go for it!

As Tino notes:

"1. Whereas Marriott points were always valued in the 0.8 - 1.0 cent range previously, the inclusion of airline awards values them at about 0.4 cents. More options = less value.

2. Marriott gift certificate awards range from 0.3 to 0.5 cents. More options = less value.

3. The Terms and Conditions mentions that the old Award Chart can be used for a few more months, but it is not made available on the web site. Lousy.

4. Car rewards: 3 weekend days in a rental car (value = under $100 anywhere) for 30,000 points? More options = less value.

5-15. The other classes of merchandise awards are just as devalued.

16. For those of you who want to find out what hotels are in each category, the web site requires 50 manual searches, one for each state. Not as bad as Hilton, which requires 250 searches to do the same thing.

17. The "50% additional" points for "Anytime" awards is unfortunately the way the entire industry is going, and gives them an excuse to effectively devalue the awards another 50%. I'm willing to bet that there will be properties (just like airline flights) that have ZERO availability at the lower point levels and that REQUIRE the more expensive award."

I agree, and I'm not very happy with the "improvements" to the MR program - nor am I surprised! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

At least there was some advance notice! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

However if the stay was for five nights, it would be advantage Starwood with the 5th night free for Starwood. Also in another example Starwood has lower points for weekends for Cat 1,2. So if the stay overlaps with a weekend again it is advantage Starwood.

msb...

To answer your question about "buying" points...The answer is "YES."

Marriott still maintains the ability to purchase points for $10 per 1,000 points up to 10% of your account balance. Therefore, just multiply your current balance by .20 to see the maximum amount of points you may purchase to increase your balance to the amount you need for the award.

I am sure there will be a lot of MR members taking a look at this option in the next couple of months as the end of July comes near.

Well at least we have time to cash out.

My only question is if I wanted to extend a 713 hotel certificate, can I wait till mid July, and get back a NEW 713 certificate that expires July 31, 2002?

Or will I get back some 'Category' certificate? Is a Category certificate good for that category and all categories below it?

I've sent an email asking this already -- waiting for response. I figure they must be swamped right now, and Marriott isn't that quick to begin with (even though their answers are normally curt -- No way, Jose!)