Devaluation of Courtyard
 

I recall a time when the Courtyard chain was second to Marriott (prior to JW and Renaissance) for the business traveler. Prices were higher than Springhill, Residence Inn, and Fairfield. The decline of the brand and the recent fiascos with the 'upgrades' of the lobby and bistro breakfast (in addition to no significant benefits for Gold/platinum members) options appear to not be helping. In my recent searches for rooms in an area, the Courtyards are usally priced lower than all other Marriott brands. Something isn't working!

It is really a shame that they have screwed up this brand because the original business traveller concept was well ahead of its time.

Marriott does have a lot of brands, and sometimes it's a blur in the US.
IMHO; I like the Courtyards in asia, the lounges are open 7 days a week for breakfast.

The beds and bedding at Courtyard are the absolute worst, in my opinion.

The Owners are not Happy
 

Was in an "old" courtyard and was talking to the front desk about the lobby.
She said that they are trying to hold out as long as they can.
She was keeping a tally of all the elite who had mentioned how much they liked the old lobby and hated the new one.

I agree completely. My initial loyalty to the Marriott brands started with the Courtyard Hotels nealry 20 years ago. I started to become dissapointed in several of my stays when the brand started to become inconsistent about 2005. Although I try to be loyal to Marriott due to Marriott Rewards, I have found my myslef being more satified with the improved Hilton Garden Inns; this is particularly the case when I bench-mark Hilton Garden Inn full breakfast options versus Courtyard Bistro breakfast; I also found the old lobbies to be more comofrtable, even though the decor as getting quote dated.

I am pleased to say that I the Marriott Hotel brand has not lost its luster, and is possibly better than it was 10 years ago; I am also deligehtd with the J.W. Marriotts, but my budget only allows for the JW's on an infrequent basis.

I don't find them too bad - as stated, the international properties are way better.

Honestly, CY varies huge from property to property. The key is to get a recently renovated property. The only way to know is to check here / tripadvisor and see...

I'm SPG plat too, and let me tell you that CYs are WAY BETTER than Sheraton Four Points.

Also, "devalue" is the wrong word here. You can devalue a currency (like the dollar... or... a MR point), but if you think they have gone downhill, well then they have just gone downhill...

+1.

You might marvel at the new JW, & Courtyard in Hangzhou. they are in the 'same' building, separate towers, only a lobby door separates the two hotels.
The Crt is 16 floors, & the JW is 26 floors. Interesting that both have lounges open 7 days a week.

the owners aren't happy with the costs of the renovation - but they love the increase in RevPAR....unfortunately you can't have one without the other

What's interesting here is that MI isn't forcing CY's to change to the new lobby - that is coming from the Courtyard Franchise Advisory Council which consists of franchise represetatives (sure Marriott has a say but the franchise community has final word on what happens on major items such as this, if a brand doesn't continue to improve theirself they will be stuck behind as the compset continues to improve theirself, think back 30 years ago when CY was first introduced - started an entire new segment but these days you have many different brands in this segment - you need to keep it fresh...what's really interesting is a friend was the chairman of the FAC when this was introduced, both MI and the FAC were concerned about the brand's brand image becoming tired, they didn't want to go as far as aloft and I think they did a decent job with it (more Hyatt Place I'd say) IMO the brand that needs to worry now about feeling "old" is Hilton Garden)

If CY is intended for business travelers, I don't understand why they withhold benefits from Golds/Plats - both with respect to other Marriott brands and with respect to HGI, the brand that I believe they'd consider their most direct competitor.

(Aloft isn't really targeted at business travelers and Element isn't rolled out in enough places to make Courtyard care too much.)

Anyway, I've never been a big CY fan because of that...but I certainly have been lured to them in the past year because of the room rates. When CY is $44/nt. and SHS/FI are $70, it's hard to pass up CY. (These are North Dallas rates - and there are sometimes five or 6 sub-$50 CY's within 10-15 minutes' drive of each other.)

I for one like the lobby and bistro. The CY in Plano lets Plats draw a "bonus" gift out of a basket: sometimes it's an appetizer, sometimes a breakfast sandwich, sometimes simply extra welcome amenity points. I've enjoyed the food items when I've received them - they aren't bad at all.

Although it is interesting to note: of this cadre of very low-priced Courtyards, only the Plano one has the new lobby. There are also many other CY's in suburban Dallas that don't have rates so low...I think a few more of them have the upgraded lobby.

What specific problems do people have with the new lobby? Breakfast isn't that important to me so the only real gripe I have is that they remove the self service coffee station in favor of the offerings from the bistro.

I do like the option of getting decent hot food at night. A lot of the CYs I stay at are fairly isolated and you can only do delivery so many times.....

You can devalue a brand (such as "Courtyard") as well, by damaging its image or reducing its perceived quality, thus reducing the value that customers are willing to pay for the name.

Well breakfast is real important to me, as a competitive bodybuilder in my "other life" getting a cooked to order egg white omelette and some clean carbs like oatmeal is super important to me. With the old lobby that was never a problem but with the new lobby, well its basically a McDonalds fast food breakfast!

Needess to say no more Courtyards for me!

Worldspan

I expense the meals but it is sometimes limit to $50 per day. If I have to pay for breakfast at the Bistro, I have to be more carefully with my expenses when staying at CY. Therefore, I will only stay at CY when there is no other choice.

There are some places where there's only a CY and a FI. I stay on gvt rate most of the time so price is not really important. The FI will have free breakfast but no gym and/or nice rooms. The CY will have a better look/feel and gym but no free food. Even so, most times we pick the FI because of the free breakfast. I think CY is losing a lot on this.

That's true, but I think overall Marriott believes that the new lobbies increase the value of the brand.

In fact, I sort of take the fact that they aren't targeting the Golds/Plats from the Marriott Rewards system at large in their primary segment to mean that they're very, very successful in segments that are, shall we say, not Flyertalkers. :)

What that segment is or why they're so successful there, I don't know.

I stayed in a new CY in CA and it was really nice. The rooms were great (we got upgrade to a suite as MR Gold) and the bed was comfortable. The location has a CY and a SHS and we picked the CY based on TA, and we were happy with our choice.

I do wonder about how CY can be competed with other business hotels in the US. Here in Europe there are Marriotts, the Ren and CY and 1 RI. So for budget traveller like us CY is our choice because it provides a good Marriott quality without paying for the FS. In the US there are so many others, and in a way SHS is kind of a direct competitor to CY.

All Valid Points about Courtyard's Decline
 

Courtyard was back in it's day, the preferred hotel for business travelers. Alas, that was then and today, HGI, Aloft's and others are flat whipping most Courtyards. The point about the Bistro vs a full breakfast option is only one (1) valid point that proves the point.

What Marriott needs to do (But won't) is 1) up the ante to stay at Courtyards with a Bonus package, 2) Expand the food at the Bistro, 3) make the business center (which in some no longer really exists) outstanding by putting in the very latest technology (color laser printers, etc) and 4) improve the beds.

Courtyard is simply in most places outclassed by other hotels which have come along with newer ideas and chipped piece by piece the business traveler away. Marriott needs to do something different.

Nail, meet hammer.

For years now, SpringHill Suites has out-Courtyarded Courtyard. The new concept rooms are (of course) larger and more stylish, and breakfast is included in the rate. There's no reason to select Courtyard over SpringHill when both are available - and whaddya know, in many cases the two brands share a parking lot.

I believe Marriott has virtually forgotten its own history with Courtyard.

One question I have is what do you get for breakfast at a bistro if you purchase the 'breakfast included' weekend rate. Since everything is ala carte, what would be included: egg sandwich and beverage? What about the fruit/oatmeal or yogurt that were included in the buffet?

To eat healthy in the new bistro, breakfast would cost over $20, so I am curious about what you would be allowed to order.

I agree that CY has been supplanted by HGI.

Besides the much better room decor and beds in HGIs, the excellent free breakfasts for elites and good menu options for lunch and dinner make HGI a winner.

And CY the (biggest) loser.

Marriott has been opening more new CY than other brands, especially internationally.

I picked the CY because of that SHS was kind of a old one and I think the new SHS are nicer.

it's not "kind of a director competitor" it is a direct competitor however MI has targeted both hotels towards a different customer, they do the same thing with the Renaissance and Marriott brands

Hidden gems: some CY's are outstanding
 

There is indeed a big difference in between different CY's. I don't expect too much of a CY in US.

On the other hand I had only 3 'WOW' experiences in the 10 years or something that I frequent Marriott hotels. (a 'WOW' experience indicating truly exceptional customer service) Out of those 3 experiences 2 of them where CY's and the other was JW Camelback.
The 2 CY's were Berlin City Center & Hong Kong.

I don't want to say the other stays were bad. If that would be true I wouldn't be a Marriott customer anymore. These 3 hotels just went the extra mile.

courtyard is a good place to burn points for me. I would rarely pay for a CY, especially if a HGI is nearby. The lack of a breakfast is a total deal breaker considering the great breakfast options at HGI. I've stayed at discount Ramada inns that have superior bedding.

And as a result, the CY brand is now very inconsistent. Add to this the almost total lack of elite recognition makes for very good reasons to avoid the brand. Some individual CYs may be viable (and even desirable), but they are tainted by the reputation of their unrenovated sister properties dragging down the brand image.

But Hilton Garden Inn got the formula exactly right for a mid-tier brand. Yes, some freshening up of older properties will need to occur due to wear and tear but no radical re-do of the concept will be required.

Exactly.

I view HGI as CY's main competitor. If you want to go intra-brand, then perhaps SHS.

socrates, your comment: "it is a direct competitor however MI has targeted both hotels towards a different customer"

I'd love to know who the CY brand is targeted towards?? Certainly not Marriott elites given minimal elite bennies & I'd question reg biz folk, since other brands & competitors such as HGI offer more usually for the same price point.

I think CY is a brand that started out way back when for the biz traveler & lost its way over the years/let others pass it by.

Cheers.

Hey! They give you a black keycard that says "one look and we know you're elite," don't they? See, they recognize elites! :p

That was 22 years ago. Is it still the same?

Cheers.

Well, that's the thing, isn't it?

I mean, this thread is discussing essentially how Courtyard has 'lost its way', so to speak. In order to understand whether it has, you have to understand what its 'way' was originally.

Whether it still answers the needs of the market it set forth to do way back when - well, that's for us to say, isn't it? ;)

The one thing that is interesting to consider - an enormous amount of time and thought was put into developping the brand. I can't imagine they haven't deployed the same amount of consideration to renewing the brand today.

Until they add brekkie to the bennies you get at CY for elites, my guess is they can renew the brand all they want but elites will either look to other Marriott brands or hoof it over to HGI. That's fine. Their choice, just as it's elites choice.

Just seems strange that other than Ritzs & resorts - which are not the same branding ;) - CY is the only Marriott brand not to offer brekkie.

What I'd like to see from the branding is WHY that is.

Cheers.

Question: is it perhaps a case where the Courtyard brand negotiates a lot of big-company rates that include breakfast?

I'm trying to reconcile this disconnect between the "business traveler" concept and the withholding of key Gold/Plat benefits at this one brand alone. Since a lot of these CY's are in suburban areas, I'm wondering if the clientele at any single given property is disproportionately skewed to few companies, and Marriott has worked out good deals with those companies.

In the 90's, I usually traveled for business on actual receipts, so I could have cared less whether breakfast was included or not. In the past ten years, nearly all of my clients have been fixed per diem - no more meal receipts - so I will almost never book a business trip in a hotel that doesn't include breakfast.

Since a lot of the big firms (at least in consulting, IT services, etc.) have gone to fixed per diems, it stands to reason that their legions of travelers are following similar booking patterns.

I think MI wants to expand the CY brand outside US and Canada, and in a lot of places like Europe, it makes sense. If you want to stay at a Marriott in Europe and you don't want the FS option, then CY is a natural choice.

I also think that there is a big market in Europe for SHS.

My company doesn't seem to normally do that, but every now and then we will have a breakfast rate.

I wonder if CYs are now focusing primarily on competing by nightly rate alone. It seems that quite often I will see CYs with the lowest rates of all Marriott brands in an area including FFIs, SHSs, RIs, etc.

I have to say that the absence of a free breakfast for at least elites is a puzzler for me too. I haven't had time to read the entire document, but I want to see if at least it mentions breakfasts and its relative importance to the market they're targeting.

And for me, for where I travel, CYs are often among the pricier options. Something like pricing is probably much more location-specific.

To address both points with an example: if I want to stay near YUL, I have 4 Marriott options: a FS at the airport which is usually over $200; a gorgeous FI (as in the best Fairfield I've ever stayed in) opposite the entrance to the airport which can usually be had for $100-120; and a combined CY/RI, where rates for both are between $139-169. Why would I pay $20-30 more to stay at the CY when I get a (very good) free breakfast at the FI?

An enormous amount of time and thought (by whom I don't know) also went into the new Marriott Vacationclub Destinations Point program, and that program is a complete disaster. I have never seen anything like it where its core customers are completely alienated. I am beginning to think that Marriott is hiring consultants rather than relying on internal experts who respect the importance of its 'heavy users'. They appear to be losing touch.

But Courtyard has never ofered free breakfast to Elites have they? Everyone goes on and on about breakfast and then in the same breath about how much worse CY is than it used to be, yet the number one complaint hasn't changed at all.

1) MI is pushing hard to have CY's all convert quickly - I believe at this point (going off memory here) over 85% of the hotels have been brought up to the current standards

2) Yes HGI continues to be ranked #1 (but they did dip to #2 last year) for quality rankings in the tier but it's the brand with the oldest standards when it comes to decor - I'm certainly the folks in Mclean are working on this very item but it's never quick and easy to refresh a brand....or look at it this way - MI did a brand refresh in the early 90's when HGI was hitting critical mass in terms of distribution, HGI and CY were pretty close in terms of product but the segment quickly built upon this and made CY the old brand....Hyatt while building their distribution took the threat of aloft seriously and has forced CY to refresh the brand again....HGI at this point has some serious decisions to make (unfortunately it's never quick or easy to refresh a brand with a sizeable amount of distribution, especially when there are outside owners/different managers involved)

You'd be surprised at the # of elites all MI branded hotels (regardless of flag) have each night

Each hotel company has a profile on not only their own brand but the compsets too but I can't legally discuss them in an open forum but I can give you a comparison:

Dayton-Hudson Corp use to have 3 divisions

Dayton Department Stores/Hudson Department Stores - depending on the state you were in....Later this division was known as Marshall Field's when they purchased that brand
Mervin's
Target

Why 3 brands of department stores? Because they were all targeted towards a different customer - Dayton-Hudson Corp (now known as Target Corp) didn't only have valuable customers at their flagship brand, they had them at all brands - why were they in 3 different segments of the department store business? Because they could earn a reasonable return for their stakeholders even with the overlap that existed

PERSONALY OPINION - note I did not have any prior knowledge and this post is only my personal opinion

Personally when I saw Destination Points being rolled out I knew the divisions time was growing short - IMO there was an exit planned when this was announced but honestly given the economic outlook for vacation properties this certainly made a much larger market for them to sell to (I mean my family owns enough weeks and are unlikely to purchase more - we certainly aren't their target market today)....but with that said I just dont get why folks are angry about Destination Points - it doesn't impact current owners but gosh this entire things really irks my parents...I mean it didn't devalue anything, infact there might end up being a slight premium because you can't purchase weeks anymore