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Originally Posted by hockeyinsider
(Post 30544781)
I would guess that most or all of the dumpy properties and airport properties flagged as Renaissance have management or licensee contracts with Marriott that long predate the current incarnation of Renaissance. There's no reason why, say, the Newark Renaissance is flagged Renaissance. It's more Delta or Sheraton than Renaissance. The same for the Renaissance Aruba Resort & Casino.
But there are plenty of nice Renn's around -- Atlanta Midtown, Chicago Renn's in the city and at ORD, Boston Waterfront, Baltimore Harborplace, St. Louis Airport, LAX, NYC Midtown, Westchester County, Arlington Capital View. I think the NYC Midtown is probably what they are looking to be. |
Originally Posted by bhrubin
(Post 30545351)
Renaissance IMO was Marriott’s attempt to compete with SPG’s Le Meridien/Westin—full service hotels with personality before the whole lifestyle approach emerged with W and its imitators. Let’s face it: Marriott was never great with personality. Renaissance now is a lot more like Le Méridien in its branding but not nearly as consistent. I’d say Renaissance today suffers an identity issue not completely incomparable to that suffered by Sheraton: some very nice properties mixed up with a lot more mediocre properties that drag down the esteem of the brand. I generally think of Renaissance as a more personable Marriott but not necessarily one that’s nicer or better. I generally still think of Le Meridien and Westin as being a bit nicer and better overall (and with more personality) than Sheraton, Marriott, and Renaissance. The fact is that Marriott has so many brands now and is doing fine with so many brands. It suits owners to not pay more to convert into fewer brands. It suite customers to have so many options available via Marriott.com, even if the brand association doesn’t always work the way we might hope. It particularly suits Marriott to have customers searching Marriott.com rather than OTAs for hotel bookings. It also allows Marriott the opportunity in the future to tighten the brand standards a bit for each of the many brands, something that Marriott used to be very good at doing. The question will be whether or not Marriott can tighten and/or encourage positive standards for brands that actually have a lot of personality! |
Originally Posted by helvetic
(Post 30545897)
Westin has personality? For me Westin is like Grand Hyatt to Sheraton's Hyatt Regency. I.e. a whole lot of dull conference hotel.
Le Meridien has more personality to be sure. But Westins at which I stay have some, too. Maybe not one that suits you? Westins otherwise have a modern clean sensibility, almost always a decent local inspired restaurant, almost always a nice bar/lounge scene attached. The health and fitness aspect is executed for most, even if that matters less to me. I suppose personality depends on the eyes of the beholder. I rarely find Westin to be disappointing for the rate except in the most expensive cities or the rare inexpensive town. |
Originally Posted by bhrubin
(Post 30545944)
Haha. If you’re only considering the examples that are conference hotels, all bets are off, I’m afraid—for almost every brand. Le Meridien has more personality to be sure. But Westins at which I stay have some, too. Maybe not one that suits you? Westins otherwise have a modern clean sensibility, almost always a decent local inspired restaurant, almost always a nice bar/lounge scene attached. The health and fitness aspect is executed for most, even if that matters less to me. I suppose personality depends on the eyes of the beholder. I rarely find Westin to be disappointing for the rate except in the most expensive cities or the rare inexpensive town. And ... all of the hotels in the "Premium" category are required to have a restaurant/bar. Some are decent, some are blah but that's really more of a matter of what the hotel operator does. If they're in an area where there is a lot of foot traffic independent of hotel guests, they can make an investment. For example, at the Phoenix Renn, they've opened up the bar with giant open space to the street, to pull in locals or other people downtown. The Westin Alexandria has a similar approach. In contrast, no one is going in to the Westin Bonaventure in LA to go to the bar unless they are staying there. |
Even in a thread about the best westins worldwide, people struggled to come up with anything truly great. https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/marr...favorites.html
Even Sheraton being the lower-end brand seems to have more standouts (Zürich anyone!) |
I don't really care if renaissance is a conversion brand or something else... I do think they have (From a consumer's perspective) a LOT of brands. as a consumer, Its like having 10 different types cheerios that are the same but have different boxes.
I want a nice (enough) bed, some space, a clean and well maintained physical plant. I get that owners might be under different franchise agreements so you might have a cluster where there are a couple distinct but not different brands that might otherwise run afoul territory agreements. Now, what's often bizarre is a 2-3 different marriott-subtype hotel beast (like they have in Indianapolis) that's part RI, part CY.. |
If I were starting Marriott today and didn't want to eliminate most of the full-service brands I would position them as follows:
Delta: Airports, convention halls and trade show centers. Sheraton: Airports, convention halls, trade show centers and resorts. Westin: Downtowns and resorts. Marriott: Downtowns, suburbs and resorts. Renaissance: Downtowns and urban areas, but no resorts (tough to be a "boutique"-esque and also be resort). J.W. Marriott: Downtowns and urban areas, but no resorts. Ritz-Carlton: Downtowns and vacation destinations, but no big resorts. St. Regis: Downtowns and vacation destinations, but no big resorts. Autograph Collection, Luxury Collection and Tribute: Independent hotels, but no airports or resorts. (I would limit Tribute to any properties that aren't full-service, including no restaurants or gyms.) |
Originally Posted by C17PSGR
(Post 30546117)
i don't remotely get how Westin fits on the "distinctive" side vs the "classic:" side.
And ... all of the hotels in the "Premium" category are required to have a restaurant/bar. Some are decent, some are blah but that's really more of a matter of what the hotel operator does. If they're in an area where there is a lot of foot traffic independent of hotel guests, they can make an investment. For example, at the Phoenix Renn, they've opened up the bar with giant open space to the street, to pull in locals or other people downtown. The Westin Alexandria has a similar approach. In contrast, no one is going in to the Westin Bonaventure in LA to go to the bar unless they are staying there. None of this has much to do with why Marriott has so many brands, of course. Marriott has so many brands because it bought Starwood. That created overlap. Now Marriott and owners eventually will sort out what that overlap means for the future. Or not. |
Originally Posted by entropy
(Post 30546297)
I get that owners might be under different franchise agreements so you might have a cluster where there are a couple distinct but not different brands that might otherwise run afoul territory agreements.
Originally Posted by entropy
(Post 30546297)
Now, what's often bizarre is a 2-3 different marriott-subtype hotel beast (like they have in Indianapolis) that's part RI, part CY..
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thanks Horace, pretty much every brand has history these days, many very different today
there are articles about cost savings only happening when its certain brands or select vs full service, in terms of combination properties |
Originally Posted by hockeyinsider
(Post 30546363)
I would think Marriott would be within its right to re-flag the hotel to a different brand within Marriott.
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as noted, absolutely cannot reflag, only deflag
brands are for owners, not guests most deflags are by owners, precedent = just have to pay to cancel contract downscale brands may be toss up, just drop owner if theyre not meeting contract |
Properties get deflagged all the time.
In some scenarios, they get progressive discipline and get deflagged if they don't improved. In other cases, the franchise term runs out. During the term of the contract, Marriott's brand standards have increased so if they want to renew the contract they will have to make a fair amount of investment in renewing/refurbing/etc. I was in a rural area last week where the choices where Motel 6, Hampton Inn, Country Inn, or Fairfield. I'd guess the Fairfield I stayed in won't be around Marriott much longer as it was very dated. Once the term of the contract is up, the owner will have the choice of sell, reflag, or renovate. HNN - Options abound for owners with old hotels In some cases, it might make more sense to reflag a property as a Red Roof or Lexington Inn, and go build a new Fairfield. |
Originally Posted by C17PSGR
(Post 30546675)
Properties get deflagged all the time.
In some scenarios, they get progressive discipline and get deflagged if they don't improved. In other cases, the franchise term runs out. During the term of the contract, Marriott's brand standards have increased so if they want to renew the contract they will have to make a fair amount of investment in renewing/refurbing/etc. I was in a rural area last week where the choices where Motel 6, Hampton Inn, Country Inn, or Fairfield. I'd guess the Fairfield I stayed in won't be around Marriott much longer as it was very dated. Once the term of the contract is up, the owner will have the choice of sell, reflag, or renovate. HNN - Options abound for owners with old hotels In some cases, it might make more sense to reflag a property as a Red Roof or Lexington Inn, and go build a new Fairfield. |
good point most contracts are not as long as some claim to be
contract length has never been enforced, can pay termination fee |
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