2019 Shutdown Thread
 

Continuing my annual tradition, here's a new thread to celebrate the new year.

I wish everyone just one shutdown each this year. No shutdowns, and you aren't pushing hard enough. More than one, and you're pushing so hard that you'll miss out on good opportunities.

So just one per person, please!

Last year's thread is here, for reference:

https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/manu...wn-thread.html

And I'm seeding the Wiki with the info from that thread.

Got a letter from Wells Fargo yesterday notifying me that my checking account (opened 3 years ago exclusively for MO deposits) is being shutdown. Average monthly MO deposit of about 77k the past 18 months (can't say what it's been over the life of the account as they only let you search 18 months back, but probably somewhere around there). Used the account pretty much exclusively for MO deposits and then paying off various credit cards. Don't have any CCs with them, although they do service my mortgage (feel free to shut that one down too, WF!) :D

I'm thinking I might open a checking account at TD Bank for my MOs going forward -- I've heard they are cool and will leave you alone if you demonstrate your MO deposits are just MS.

personal checking or business checking?

Thanks for sharing - what method(s) of MO deposit did you utilize? ATM, In-Branch, Mobile Deposit...?

It's a personal account, and I exclusively deposited via ATM.

77k/month for three years is not a bad run at all. Congrats for keeping it that long.

Thanks - I just checked and I've been averaging ~$20k / month for about 2 years now, 100% via ATM deposits. No letters yet!

1. P1: Shut Down By Chase Card Services personal and business cards , Chase private client checking and saving remained open

2. Chase Private Client Chk/sav 3yrs, Hyatt 3yrs, but upgraded without bonus in Nov 2018 to save a pull, CSR 4mo, Ink Cash 8mo, Ink Pref 2mo . Also have chase freedom for 28yrs. It was called something else before. I had other cards in between which i closed.

3. Chase CPC saving $15K, chking $100, TD Ameritrade brokerage $400K , TD Bank $150K , Own Home + 3 cars , No debt 830 FICO Experian.

4. on old Hyatt $120K MS 2yrs ago, After No MS on P1 till finished min spend on Ink Cash around aug 2018, about $5-10K/mo. Then bought $30K VGC Thanks giving and xmas across all cards. But in Dec 2018 I also MS $83K on Hyatt $24K , $28K , $31K with CL $40K so 3 cycles. Dec / Jan statement close was Jan 2nd.and points posted shortly after. Plan was to finish $57K for jan feb statement and earn globalist. I started MS $9500 x 3 days , then ACH Payment which bounced, I was unaware of the bounce as My TD bank displayed " payment made " and cleared , and on Chase also " payment made" , I tried to use card next day. Card declined. Got email fraud alert, I responded back " i recognize the charge" , then tried to use card again next day , again declined. I checked TD bank , now it showed payment was returned, and now in Chase account all cards now display Account Closed.

5. I consistently cycle 3-4x meaning Im super diligent on paying my bills every Friday P1, P2 , P3 even if its just a few $100 each week.
6. never did bill pay. Always paid Chase by ACH from Chase site

7. Did you spell out the bank's full name in an internet forum? I don't understand this, but i think answer is NO,

Note:
P2 and P3 intact .
P2 MS $100K per month past 3yrs .

Initially first letter from chase stated
Rapid Increase revolving credit
Recent returned payment
Account not used as Intended.

When I called in first time I explained , my family member has a terminal illness with sudden decline to hospice care, as result we did heavy spending on Chase Hyatt for holiday shopping gifting close family with gift cards and other gifts. Took RMD distribution from 401K to pay Hyatt, the last distribution took long to clear and caused bounce. Please reconsider.

They responded back today :

We reviewed but decided not to open because :
Rapid increase revolving balance
Too many requests for credit
This account and related accounts were closed at banks request

id like to know what else I can do.?
Am i permanently barred from Chase credit cards?
Im currently 5/24 but will drop to 3/24 in april 2019, can I reapply ?
I have 2 Million UR in P1. will they let me move to P2 ?

I hope you are joking asking "what else I can do". With such activity I'm surprised they didn't shut you down long time ago. You violated all possible and impossible rules.

Word of advice: don't do such things with other banks, especially with amex/citi. you just asking for trouble.

Maybe I'm slow on the uptake, but what does P stand for? I assume just other accounts, but curious if it's some MS terminology Im not privy to.

I understand P in the OP's post as referring to Person.

Return payment got eyes on your account and activity.

The call brought more eyes on your account and activity.

It's probably being reviewed in their risk department. I would move the 2 million UR in P1 somewhere quick. "P2 has been MSing 100k per month for 3 years", move P2's UR somewhere quick. Anticipate account closures on P2 and P3.
I would save your asset and not worry about getting more accounts with Ch@se.

I concur; I've read DPs that Chase is very sensitive to return payments, even if made just once. First and foremost, save your hard earned assets with the grace period given to you.

OP, weigh carefully if you'd rather cash out $20K or move pts to P2 or P3 and put eyes on their accounts, putting them at risk for shutdown. If ya'll are in the same household, it is possible P2 and P3 accounts are already being reviewed and may be next in the chopping block. Despite the shutdown, be glad it's not like Citi where I've read DPs that it forfeits rewards earned when they close account(s).

BUT, WHY the payment is returned? Poster said TD showed the fund was cleared and Chase showed fund was received. Would it be the timing issue that his accounts were already in the process of being shut down when the payment was sent from TD?
I am at a loss why the payment is returned after 3 days. It is not like OP has not had enough funds in his TD account. My guess is, his accounts have already been under review when he cycled his CL rapidly and made 4 or more payments to his accounts on the Hyatt card. Unless he actually did not have spare funds in his TD account but relied on deposits to clear to meet the payment - if that is the case, then it is playing with fire because the deposit could be withheld pending review before it is made available... If you dont have the means dont play the scale. That is what it boils down to.

Thanks everyone for constructive criticism. I appreciate all the comments
I called Chase today and asked if I am banned. They said Im def not banned and can continue to bank at Chase. I can reapply for cards in future, but not now.

In early December I called Chase to increase my credit line. I explained terminal illness, that I was planning to put big charges on my card, They gave the OK and increase. After 2nd payment, funds took several days to clear due to xmas so I called in to check, and at same time asked if it was ok to spend another $20K in next few days. The rep noted my account and sent confirmation email. After spend I made payment.

So the missed payment started as an error from TD Ameritrade. The funds never sent at all but the process initialized from the mobile app and was out of sync. TD Bank was expecting a transfer but didnt get it, the balance on the account increased because the account had enough funds already to cover the transfer, but because funds never came, the account went on hold behind the scenes
. Chase tried to collect funds from accnt that was not available. TD Ameritrade and TD bank reimbursed for fees incurred and both confirmed that me the client wouldnt have seen this as it all happened behind the scene.

When I spoke to chase today, now they said the closed accounts were because of the missed payment.
They said they pulled my credit report and noticed I had applied for 3 chase cards, 2 business and CSR, in past yr and 2 amex card there after, too many inquiries
They also stated that my credit card debts werent reflected on my report.

I asked for third review and explained the missed payment.
I told them I never carry debt as i balance my accounting weekly. The Hyatt charges were paid from brokerage distributions already so no debt was sent to credit report. My utilization is always <1%
I also stated that after this issue I opened a Schwarb Brokerage account and was offered a Platinum card which i took.
I said Im not a churner, if I was, I could have cancelled my old Hyatt card and reapplied for a new bonus, but i upgraded with no bonus, and why would i hold onto a 28yr old freedom card.

They said they will get back to me in 10 days.

If Chase is willing to listen to you, then it is still hopeful.

Last year I read a shut down case on a non English site, that the poster has opened multiple Chase cards, primarily the cobrand cards and has put on large spends on those cards. The explanation she gave was her families come to visit her in US and the big gang was traveling the country and shopped like crazy. She also had banking accounts with Chase, that had sizable balances more than enough to cover all the outstanding on the cards. The first and second appeal failed but the third one, thru a letter to the Executive Office did the job. Accounts were fully restored.

Good luck to you and keep us posted.

BTW, did TD Ameritrade give you plausible reason on why the transfer or the distribution from the brokerage side never got it to the banking side? I thought TD Ameritrade has the cash account as well (at least that is how our idle account looks to me but I never link it to the TD Bank accounts.)

Everything would be copacetic if indeed you were paying multiple medical bills. But you are doing MSing and not an insignificant amount of it either.

How hard will it be for Chase to follow the payments and see that they aren't going to MD Anderson Cancer Center or it's ilks? That's what they need the 10 days for. They are going to track those payments and expenses. So I wish you the best of luck but I would immediately follow Mammibear's advice and move your points out of Chase ASAP.

Just remember that the phone people haven't got a clue. I deal with Chase and they are a hard case. They closed one of my CC's because of inactivity and no matter what my personal banker's did with the CC side of their business, they would have none of it. (And I am far from a bad customer). They "let" me open a new card, but it was not as "favorable" as the one they closed.
They just march to a different drummer.

Please let us know the outcome.

Discover shutdown
 

Did you inquire about the payment not crediting toward CL and that's what drew attention to your account? The issuer in question has long had a policy of not crediting payments toward one's available credit for 8 days if a payment is made less than 3 days after a prior payment, even if it's initiated via the issuer. There is a message displayed on their website, but of course you wouldn't see the message having pushed a WMBP.

Of course you hit this much too hard too fast with only a 2-week old account, but anyone looking to rake in a large double cashback payment in the 13th statement should take heed. If you get a shutdown there is no recourse so you only get 1.5% instead of 3%, or even less if you lose cashback on the current statement cycle too.

I guess what was "before" and if it was "safe" does not mean that now is "OK" to do it. Banks adapt to current conditions, some fast, some slow. But eventually, in my view, such aggressive cycling is an invitation for trouble. Especially, when double CB is paid only on 13th month - you have to be very careful not to screw up. I would be satisfied with whatever CB amount I get, when doubled instead of not getting anything at all (in my case, they gave me first 4K CL, so I was under this limit for 3 months, then I asked for increase - they upped up to 7K, then in 3 months - to 11K). Even it was not great, I accepted that.

That's too bad, that some people don't get an idea that you cannot get everything. This is a marathon, not a sprint.

I did inquire on day 9 after a payment didn't release CL. I discussed with people who reported no hold on pushed payments. I think my account was under review prior to calling, but who knows.

Would I do this with an issuer I was concerned about keeping long term? Of course not. If you value your relationship with an issuer, this hobby is a marathon. If you don't, it's a sprint. Might as well stress test early on, before loss of cash back match becomes too big of a risk. Staying within the CL for that card ($5k) on a monthly basis wasn't worth logging into another site to check that payments arrived, etc.

I just had another incident of DIT credit limit not releasing. My bank is WF which had an outage yesterday, so it's probably due to that. My 2k of CFP billpays did post yesterday as well and that amount got released for CL.

Last time I had CL not release, it was 7 months ago, I called and they had me on a 3-way call with WF to confirm the payment cleared, and manually released the limit. This time I'll just sit it out, not worth the risk.

I agree that if you don't care about this issuer, than it is one thing. However, the way they pay rewards is different - it is on 13th month. So, to fly under the radar with such recycling for 12 months is very unrealistic. May be it is their new line to give card with low limit to protect themselves from paying too much.

Why isnt on ones credit report that an issuer shut you down and not that you closed the acct. Id hate to have something like that on my CR that any issuer will be able to see front and center

Sorry to hear you got shut down. With this card, though, better to happen early than late. The one thing that stands out: WMBP. With soooo many DPs of shutdowns triggered by WMBP, the source of payment blind to the CC issuer, it's a very bad and, in most cases, unnecessary risk.

I looked at my DIT statement and checkfreepay from WM shows up as a payment coming for a BofA account. Hardly a sketchy item to have on your transactions. It's probably a combination of credit score and sudden high spending that makes someone a credit risk, while others with more solid credit record are not caught. It's only when banks start to seriously cramp down on MS that everyone gets axed. Then it doesn't really matter how you pay the card.

The answer is, it does not matter an iotta with the "closed by grantor". It only matters in your perception but in reality and all practicality, it does not affect anything - from your fico to your ability to get approval of new cards (when other conditions are met, of course).

CR does state who closed the acct.

I do not believe it matters whether you closed the card or the issuer closed the card, both are negative in the FICO formula but neither is worse. It is very bad if the closed by issuer (or closed by customer) is also tagged with late payments or write offs.

I hears a rumor Paypal is purging old data so they have less at risk in case of a hack. Anyone been able to reopen a Paypal account after a hard shutdown? I have a lifetime ban and have been using an alternate e-mail to make payments. I am scared to give them my SSN on the alternate email so I can receive payments.

With all respect, I think the above statement is absolutely incorrect. Cards being closed isn't a negative factor. Cards are closed by one's initiation all the time. Likewise, cards get closed by the issuer for non-use all the time. I have over an 800 FICO score and have plenty of accounts I closed or the issuer closed through inactivity.

Matter of point, I just closed 5 CC accounts (out of 23) because I wasn't using them anymore and my FICO score went up after that.

What really counts is your credit utilization, not who closed the cards as long as all payments are historically on time.

I respect your personal experience. I agree that what counts is the credit utilization. When you close 5 accounts, definitely you reduce your total credit and everything being equal, your utilization goes up. So I do not know how you get a FICO score bump with the account closing.

The other important factors are payment history and number of accounts that have balance. I sometimes have 15 CCs that have balance (reward spending etc). I do see the complaints from CBs.

From my own experience, closing a CC with a low credit line has no or little impact to FICO score. But if I close a CC with $35,000 CL, it should result in a rise in credit utilization and drop your FICO.

What we normally recommend is that, if the CC carries AF and it does not fit your needs, then try to downgrade to no AF CC. If not possible, then just close it. Do not worry about credit score. Your AF cost is more than the few point impact (if any) on your credit. For the CCs without any AF, there is no need to close them. If you do want to close some, then do it slow. It is better to keep total credit line stable and the utilization stable.

I think few here would let 15 accounts carry a balance. Closing an account (either at the consumer's request or by issuer) should have zero net impact if you're not carrying a balance. A closed account will typically remain on one's credit reports for 10 years, so by the time the account falls off of the reports there will usually be minimal impact due to average age of accounts or longest account age.

always trnsfr ur cl from one to another unless it's only card of type

Not sure if you fully understand it. Carrying a balance does not mean I pay any interest. I would pay off the entire balance each month. After the CBs are educated, 15 or even 20 CCs having balance does not factor into the credit report any more.

For the people who are in the CC venture, we carry CCs of various banks, various flavors and various purposes. You want to optimize the rewards; You want to hit reward spending; You want to keep most CC issuing banks happy. So you want to keep the spending high to get most of the CCs you carry. That is the essence of this forum. If you keep a very low utilization (not simple statement balance %, but real utilization), then you do not get much out of the CCs you carry.

Right now, I utilize several CCs each from Chase (freedom), Bof A Cash Rewards, Discover, Citi and several travel reward CCs. Then I have US Bank + paying utility, AmEx Plat for travel, AmEx Gold for dining and grocery, BBP and SimpleCash+ for business spending. Then retail CCs such as Amazon and Uber etc. I'm quite happy to keep like $2,000 balance on each card to manage the total utilization. I could micro manage it and pay off most balance prior to statement dates. But I just set up auto pay and keep things low maintenance. There is already so much movement....

It is not negative on the FICO formula unless the person has a very thin profile that closure of accounts would bump up his utilization ratio.

late payments or write offs are coded by their own codes.

I understand it, and my assumption is nobody on here is paying interest. What I was saying is that many will let the all statements all cut with a zero balance except one or two cards with a token balance which is paid in full after the statement cuts.

Do not think so. If you get only $5,000 total balance on your $350,000 credit line, then it looks you get excess CL that you do not need. Lenders like to see you use their cards. When you apply for new cards, it is harder since you get little or no statement utilization.