Developing a System
 

Well, we sure are a merry bunch of piranhas! I have read many threads in depth and have benefitted greatly from so many contributors. Thank you FT and thank you for the input of so many contributors!

There are still some things that escape me though. We come in many shapes and sizes - age, financial profile, experience, household size, etc. I am trying to develop an efficient, adaptable system that can cut across these parameters.

So here are a few of my questions:

What percentage of MS seems sustainable relative to annual income and relative to credit limit?
Within the spending on one card, what percentage of real versus manufactured spending seems sustainable?
How many cards do you MS on simultaneously?
Do you max out your spending to annual income ratio with several issuing banks simultaneously?

I know we all have different comfort levels. I am curious to see what has worked.

Each one's comfort level is different, approx for 2013 -

1 - 90-100% on 2 cards
2 - 90% ms
3 - 2-3
4 - yes

I think a more important question that "how much can you get away with" is "how do you go about it to get away with it"? Not all MS methods are created equal when it comes to raising flags.

I agree that certain ways of spending may raise less flags. I also think that being able to defend your spending is important, should you be called upon to do so. Those are topics I think could be further explored.

Much of what read here, though involves spending with no context. Someone saying they did 50k last week sounds exciting, but it could have come from business spending, reimbursable employee expenses, or they could have a substantial personal income.

I'm just trying to find ways to level the field.

Why're you trying to find our levels? That's your first mistake.
Start small and build your way up. Just because you see someone doing 25-50K in MS doesn't mean you'll be doing that.

Also, if you don't have the means or the tolerance for the types of risk you're going to make, then this game isn't for you.

You did not make a mistake, Rossir. Lot's of talk on this board (have you ever heard the song Everybody Talks Big)?

Anyone claiming 50k in a week is almost certainly NOT doing manufactured spend. That would be one hundred $500 prepaid cards in a week.

MS makes sense only if U have a CC giving U >2pts/$spent

Use only the CC giving U the max benefits.

50% of CL is generally safe irrespective of your annual income, however MS>20k may be questionable.

Developing a System
 

That's a bit harsh. Rather than comment on my means, tolerance and understanding of this process, I thought it might be beneficial to couch MS in terms of percentages. What is small and what is large is relative.

Certainly, though, I understand if you do not feel comfortable to discuss it this way.

Developing a System
 

Thank you, Prasha. Questions: 50% of CL on one card, or overall on cards by one issuing bank, or overall against all issuing banks that you have cards with?

On the 20k, do you mean with any one bank?

.....

Yes, the CL on the card U are using (assumption is U have more than 2 CCs)

If your CL is <5k on the card U are using, aggressive/safe move could be to roll, means U pay off the balance and charge again and rinse. but maintain below 50% CL balance before the close of the monthly statement. (This is not based on any analysis but my comfort level and logical sense)

I am somewhere around 35k a month. I know folks who are over 100k, and have known of folks doing WAY more.

You do not need solely a credit card earning more than 2%. Plenty of MS opportunities that are zero cost. Most common is Amazon Payments, but there are at least 2 or 3 very easy ones that are NET COST $0.

Read up here, but then explore for yourself. Use this site for ideas, but... don't limit yourself just to what is here, or what someone says.

Keep in mind, yeah, if you do MS of 20x your annual income, it looks suspicious, until you break it down to 10 or 15 cards, in which case it is not, and now it is 1x your annual income. Voila.

Start a business, you can easily do A LOT more.

Involve other people, now you just doubled what you can do.

Makes sense?

Btw, want proof you do not need a 2x or more card? Right now I am milking my hotel points and miles, saving the 5x cards for others... earning points plus cash back, best of both worlds.

I urge anyone to read Michael Michalko's book, Thinkertoys. It will open up your creativity and absolutely help.

MS is rewarding when you do it, even if it is not your own idea.... but it is MUCH MORE fun when you have that AHA moment for yourself.

In general, the CLs on my cards afford a healthy amount of MS. I pay them down repeatedly intra-month and never close with a 10% balance to CL. I also can float a fair amount of spend if need be.

I have several convenient sources of MS vehicles, and several avenues to offload, rinse, repeat.

I am still gearing up, though I can triple what I already do with no great increase in time or effort. But I want to be thorough about his. Besides risking the FR on an Amex card, does the level of GC, VR, or similar vehicle spend relative to income matter?

Damn. I was thinking this was going to be more of a logistical thread.

I'm developing a system in terms of tracking everything, so far so good, but I would love to know how other people keep records.

I throw all my stuff in a bag.

Your CL is in relation to your stated income, the ratio is their proprietary formula. So your income factor is indirectly included in CL. U can make as complex as U want but there is always point of diminishing return.

Here's a logistical thought:

After realizing that i was spending too much time thinking about this stuff, I decided this month to make a simple checklist of vehicles that I know how to work (or need to work, in order to avoid a fee or whathaveyou) and put it into a spreadsheet so that I can check off when (and, if applicable, how far) I've driven each vehicle each month. I've also incorporated all of my CC closing dates into a unique calendar in googlecalendar, so I can see at a glance when statements will be closing (helps for putting that .99 charge on my otherwise unused chase cards, or paying down that 10k amex bill to $25 before the statement cuts, etc.). I still check in here often, but I'm having fewer of those moments at the end of the month where I wake up int he middle of the night panicking about whether I maxed out my BB for the month or remembered to use my AP, or got all 10 debit uses for my rewards checking, etc.

If you've ever had those moments, I think you need to get your priorities straight.

I started with 1k on amazon payments once a month in a lump sum.
Then graduated to 6k using serve and paying no fees.
I then got my wife a serve card and run 6k through her serve card. But using credit cards she is an authorized user for. I'm the main account holder.

This totals 13k a month in (no fee) MS split up on two cards before my regular spending. With my regular spending I will end up running about twice my yearly income through credit cards. I haven't been doing it long (3 months) but so far no problems.

Getting my wife on the same page with me has been the toughest part of starting the MS. We're currently just trying to hit some signup bonuses on the SW CC's to get the CP, but outside of that we aren't trying to run up big spending.

I've only been doing this for about a month. I keep my receipts and used cards in one gallon sized plastic bag, while I put my statements and CC's (only 2 right now) that we're not trying to hit a spend on in the other. I like the idea of using a Google Calendar to manage statement close dates though.

just be long term greedy like Goldman Sachs

My approach is to change the CC closing date of all my cards to within a day or two of each other. Then i just have to do all pre close adjustments at the same time. Same for post close.

I do keep a spreadsheet of the spend required for bonuses and if the bonus is based on the calendar or card membership year. If card year, which month is start.

Developing a System
 

I think a missing question might be 'how much can you afford to see locked up for 30-60 days'. Many MS vehicles end up getting .... down and sometimes you have to wait for your money. Netspend was very popular before Bluebirds but many if us saw $10,000 locked up on Netspend accounts while they ran their risk and fraud ........ before sending a check. The impact of $10k locked up on a debit card is no big deal to a multi-millionaire; or the end of the world to a poor college freshman.

28 worksheets.:cool:

Indeed we are a diverse crowd, but the better players have a high degree of intelligence and creativity and deeper pockets.

1. 4x income

2. 100% MS

3. Hightide mark was 100 cards, including originals, AUs, and virtual accounts while assisting the mint with inventory reduction.

4. Currently play with 8 issuers, but have played with more. That figure doubles if you include pseudo bank issuers and debit card issuers.

Pretty high water marks, ADK!

Agreed that creativity and ability to handle the carrying costs are key, but it is good to know that such percentage levels can be sustained.

Care to share a breakdown of that 100% MS? Financial instruments, reselling, FARs, etc...?

Lets just say the MS goes broad spectrum over multiple enterprises including miles earning debit cards running as turbochargers to credit card MVD purchases turned into MOs for bank recapitalization, beans bought on 2-3x credit cards feeding a flock of birdies and their friends, multiple vines in Jungleland, stripmining new account sign on bonuses, direct bank recapitalization through new account funding, Nationwide is On Your Side, gift card regifting, microlending and etc.

Been racking up new countries in the past few weeks, so business at The Green Recycling Company has suffered. Could be it was not the weather that reduced US January sales figures.;)

ADK: understood. So most of your stated MS is actually in financial instruments.

Does this mean annual spending = 4x annual income, or monthly spending = 4x annual income?

agreed

me too! :)

And manage the interest rate on your accounts like Barclays.:D

Big MS is no game for the undercapitalized. Always diversify your MS using multiple opportunities and always mind your cash flow.:cool:

Love this post!

The free/cheap trip to Puerto Rico got my wife on the same page. She just texted me about her CVS run. :)

Must be nice to have some help. My wife thinks I'm crazy and of course she's right. ;) Maybe some day she'll come around. Maybe a free anniversary vacay will convince her?

Haha agree with you on this one. Just started MS game myself few months ago, working the AP and VR so far, but have started slowly with Amex BC that both my wife and I have, but getting her to go to CVS is like pulling teeth. But as you said hopefully the reward will bring her around.

Cash in some of your points for gift cards to Nieman's and tell your wife that you're buying a new pair of shoes because of your MS spend. She'll get onboard quick.

Scratch MVD and replace with 1VGCs. For some reason MVD just ain't feelin' the love anymore.:rolleyes: Increases the per $500 transaction cost by $1.04, but you just shift to a card with more than 1x on the transaction (Flexperks, HH, SPG, etc.).

BTW, MVD invited me to open another MVD so they really ain't feelin' the love any less, they just want to collect another card activation fee. While it would be profitable to MVD again (and again and again), there are just too many other trout ponds to dynamite.:p