onlysuites

Flew in a few days back from NCL to DEL on a single ticket in Y costing just over £300. I am going to use my complimentary Biz upgrade with Thai Royal Orchid Gold for the return jurney back to the UK

Checked in 2 suitcase's weighing 24kg and 23 kg. 1 Golf bag weighing just under 20 kgs.

At boarding in AMS asked the gentleman if the airplane was overbooked and if it was then i would happily stay back a day. He said it wasn't but it was really nice of me to ask and took my boarding pass. Since you are a PE i might be able to upgarde you. Within a minute from then i was holding a WBC boarding pass.

Not a bad deal for £300.... plus i get enough miles for one free trip with Web@awards to a city with the 50% off offer. I am sure it would have cost around that much to have my luggage sent there alone.

Now thats what i call a great deal, and i guess that is probably why most of us FF's still stick with KLM.

Am on 5 op-up's this year from 8 flights long distance flights.

BA Fan

You mean he was being polite and helpfull ..... you sure he was working for KLM ......

Threy

Operational upgrades are certainly a nice thing to get and actually made me stick with Lufthansa during the later months of 2002.

On the other hand 90 % of all posters are not unhappy with KLM from the moment they check in until the moment they get their bags back, but are simply sick and tired of dealing with the staff around the flying part of the journey, beginning from subpar websites to incompetent FD agents.

I am still amazed how people have the courage trying to book a ticket on klm.de , I gave it up a long time...

jetfan

Good to see that there are also some positive people on this forum!
Thanks for your contribution. Companies make mistakes, hopefully somebody is reading the threads in this forum and action is taken. Travelling for me is a necessity to achieve business objectives on the one hand and a great way of seeing new places when on holiday on the other hand. KL makes mistakes but so do other airlines. Yes I am inclined to be pro-KL but that does not make me anti-other airlines. And if KL botch up, I tell them, almost always it's been rectified and in a more than satisfactory way.
In my opinion, there are too many cynics on this site taking every opportunity to bash KL. Although quite humorous to read now and again, quite sad if that's your only objective. Get a life and mellow out, I feel.

MAN Flyer

Dear jetfan, while your constant battling on behalf of KLM is admirable (you don't work for them do you ? ), you really are not in a position to tell people that they are wrong to moan or should 'chill out'.

I have no idea how long you have been flying with them, but most people on here are long time flyers with KL (ie Johan and Steve) so I think it's fair to say they are in a position to offer an informed opinion. Even if Steve does give the impression of having a vendetta at times .

People have had enough of the deterioration of the standard of service they offer and the number of problems they have. Many of the problems you read about on here didn't happen years ago, and if they want to report their problems and moan about it, that's up to them.

Maybe you should 'chill out' and not take it so personally

pmcg

Don't we have to refer to Steve as Mr. Kim now?

jetfan

Sad you take it that way.
Am I taking it personally? Not at all. Just hate people bashing national products (Shell/Philips etc). And no: I don't work for them.
Ive' been flying with KL since my 11th (when living abroad).
Number of trips so far: I estimate 75 intercontinental roundtrips and 50 intra-Europe roundtrips in the last 5 years. In economy and business classes.
No idea how that compares to some of the others here but I do feel it is a fair sample of what's happening out there.

MAN Flyer

You sound like you've been fortunate then.

Don't know how on earth Shell and Phillips come into this. If you would care to look you may notice that a high percentage of the people on here are not Dutch, so they aren't 'bashing 'national' products' when having a go at KL.

Besides the fact Shell are half British .

jetfan

It was a comparison that's all.
Dutch are known for their bashing Dutch-brands.
Of course most members here are non-Dutch, if this were an all-Dutch site we'd not be writing in English, isn't it.
I'll give this thread a rest now.

johan rebel

Beats me too. Besides, Shell is taking such a pounding from all sides nowadays that I see no reason to join the fray. I'm sure the SEC will do a good job!

Although I am a Dutch national in the sense that I have a Dutch passport, I have never considered myself Dutch, have never understood "het blauwe gevoel", nor why De Telegraaf keeps going on about "onze nationale trots". At the risk of repeating myself (those of you who know the story need not read on ), here's my take on KL :

Those of us who have flown KL in its prime, will remember the high service level and meals they used to serve. We are therefore all too aware of the precipitous and accelerating decline in since then.

I've been an airline (and KL) passenger since 1959. In those days air travel was a luxury product, even in what was then known as tourist class. Passengers were fewer, airlines were smaller and they employed fewer staff. They could be, and were, very picky about whom they hired. The minimum qualification levels for cabin crew were so high that very few of those FAs now flying would have been hired back then.

The service in the air was superlative (WBC does not compare in any way to the old Royal Class, which was also offered on shorthaul flights), as was the service on the ground.

Sure, there were delays and cancelations, but KL would do their utmost to assist passengers in every way possible. As many destinations were served as infrequently as once a week, this was of course very important.

Sure, IFE consisted of magazines, newspapers and books, but since nobody had ever heard of video, let alone video-on-demand, that didn't matter. I've always enjoyed reading anyway.

Sure, the seats did not have built-in massage, but they were amply padded and comfortable. Never had a problem sleeping.

Sure, airline lounges were unheard of, but who cared when airports were small and uncrowded?

Sure, there were no FF programs, but that didn't stop airlines from treating their passengers as elites anyway.

In my first 33 years as a KL passenger, I did not have reason to complain one single time. In the next five years, I complained twice. Both issues were eventually resolved to my complete satisfaction. Since then, I have had more occasions to complain than I care to enumerate here. I usually don't bother to write to them any more, but when I do I rarely receive a to-the-point and satisfactory answer.

Yeah, I know, air travel is now a mass market product and prices (at least in economy class) have come down considerably. So have service levels. Fair enough, but only to a point. A premium cabin shoud come with premium service, both in the air and on the ground. The joke called Europe Sucks is not acceptable, and several aspects of WBC service have been cut back even though fares have not decreased. Reducing service in Y to no-frills levels while generally charging far higher fares than low cost airlines is not acceptable. KLM's concept of service recovery, characterized by a complete lack of flexibility and generosity, is not acceptable. Passing off service reductions as "enhancements" and "improvements" is an insult to the customer's intelligence, and not acceptable. This quote from KL's 2004 annual report that I posted in another thread is a great example:¨

"In the course of the year, a series of product and service improvements were introduced to raise sales . They have as yet had only a limited effect on the result but passengers have generally welcomed the changes . KLM introduced a new product on European flights, with a division into a Europe Select and an Economy class in which a limited number of highly reduced ‘base’ fares are also offered."

Either KLM management live in Alice's Wonderland, or else they assume that all readers of the annual report are certified idiots. Probably both.

True, KL is not the only airline on the slippery slope, but they are certainly way ahead of the pack in most instances. While still paying more or less the same fares, I'm getting less and less for my money.

For the past 15 years, KL has been my preferred carrier on all of two routes, mainly because they until recently offered the most convenient schedules. To my satisfaction, SK have now added a flight between CPH and AMS that suits me admirably, so I finally have an alternative. In the other case, KL's switch to daytime flights on the AMS-JNB and AMS-CPT routes seems to have been designed to drive me into the arms of the competition.

I should perhaps hasten to add that KL does have its positive sides :

- The Flying Dutchman program has a lot going for it.
- Flight attendants are generally professional, service-minded and friendly.
- WBC is a decent product. I wouldn't hesitate to describe it as good if only they would maintain the seats properly and keep the cabin clean.
- Service delivery is fairly consistent. You know what to expect (and especially what not to expect!) and usually get it.
- They usually get me to my destination more or less on time.
- They have never lost my luggage, nor have any bags of mine ever been delayed.

All told, things could be a lot worse. I'm sure the new bosses in Paris will do what they can, though.

johan

Steve Fenton

Jetfan

I can safely say that up until January this year I was one of KLM biggest and best advocates despite being dished up a consitantly crap product for the last 14 years. I did more flights in a year with KLM than most people would do in 10, plus I also fly many other airlines, so I think I just might have enough experience to recognise a product in decline and for sure KLM is one of them.

I could only guess by your comments you have never experienced a good quality airline product because if you had for sure you would realise that KLM on a good day is about as bad as it gets with some other airlines.

One thing I hate more than bad mouthing is brown nosing

Sjoerd

Don't really understand why people complain so much about KLM. I fly them a lot, and I fly a lot on LH, AF, and some Asian airlines (TG, CX, SQ) as well, and in economy class there is little or no difference. When I look back and think "why was this flight nice" it is mostly because the seat next to mine was empty. Food, entertainment, etc., is more or less the same on all carriers. Friendliness of FA's can make a difference, but no airlines in my experience only have friendly or unfriendly staff. And I prefer the genuinely friendly KLM FA to the robotic SQ hostess.
All the major airlines offer much less in product quality than 10 years ago. These days, I just book the flight that has the best price / routing / schedule combination value, because in terms of service I just don't expect anything on European flights, and all airlines will still give you something to eat and drink (again: no consistent difference between the various airlines) and some entertainment on intrecontinental flights.

(and: I found Johan's remark about SK strange: the few times I flew SK I didn't have a good experience with them (particularly nasty FA's))

Steve Fenton

Dont you believe it. Try flying KLM from AMS > TPE via BKK in Y.I got bumped out of C and what an eye opener it was. (also due to the fact it is impossible to sleep in Y due to the TV's beign constantly switched on and no amenity kits to block out sound or light)

In Y they served the meal after take off and dissapeared. Trying to get a drink of water was a joke, they did not come round once after meal service on a 12 hour flight and were telling people to use the water dispenser mounted on the cabin wall if they wanted a drink. I heard them tell one passenger, me, that water was only available in bottles to C class passengers.

Sjoerd

I just did that same flight (to BKK, but I have done KL877 to TPE two years ago) in May 2004. I slept for 6 hours (and I am 1.89cm so not small), and didn't have a problem getting a drink when I woke up. In fact, I NEVER had a a problem getting _any_ drink (alcoholic or non-alcoholic) between the normal drink services on KLM.
It seems that you and Johan board a KLM flight full with adrenaline and thinking "let's see how bad it is today". Perhaps, for a change, you should try to be relaxed when you board the plane, and you will see and feel the difference.
I am not a big KLM fan, and I also regret that air travel has lost so much of it luxuries, but 1) I am quite often positively surprised by service that I have now learned not to expect (such as the excellent food service on our Y class KLM trip to Helsinki in April 2004); 2) I have relatively good _and_ relatively bad experiences on all airlines that I fly. (last week positively impressed on Eva Air Y class and a bit disappointed on Thai Air C class)

MAN Flyer

It's not a case of boarding and thinking 'how bad is it going to be today' more a case of 'this used to be a pleasure and now it's bearable at best'. I am a fan of KL's WBC on long haul, especially in a 747 or front section of an MD11. However, travelling long haul in Y in KL is not in anyway a nice experience any more. They are not alone in this I agree but when you spend a small fortune with them annually you're entitled to complain when the service drops

To say they are on a par with SQ either in Y or, more unbelievably, compare WBC to Raffles Class is frankly astonishing . SQ in Y has PTV's with 30+ channels of films and programmes that you can stop and start as you wish, as opposed to twisting your neck every which way but loose to watch a film (that they are kind enough to choose for you) if your in the wrong row. Also give me a robotic smile over a robotic scowl any day .

KL have IMHO 3 reasons people I know in the UK who fly with them regularly stick with them:

1) They will give you full miles whatever class you fly in and however cheap your ticket. This is unsusual nowadays and they deserve praise for sticking with it. Also the bonus miles for GE's and PE's are great.

2) They fly from a large number of regional UK airports meaning that they are the main (or only in some areas) choice for people who don't live in the South East.

3) And, probably THE most important; They are usually the cheapest.

You can also add Schiphol as a definite 'pull' as it's a dream compared to say LHR or CDG .

I disagree somewhat with the earlier comments about Dutch people knocking KL. I usually find them trying to stick up for them.

It's worth bearing in mind that people's gripe with KL is as much with FD as than the in-flight KL product. The 'fun' with them is well documented on this board on a weekly basis.

I agree with the comment about Thai's C class not being very good, particularly for long haul compared to the regional competition.