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FlyerTalk Forums (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/index.php)
-   KLM Flying Dutchman (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/klm-flying-dutchman-493/)
-   -   SkyPriority companions not allowed in AMS priority security (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/klm-flying-dutchman/2086047-skypriority-companions-not-allowed-ams-priority-security.html)

CyBeR Jul 9, 2022 9:51 am
Originally Posted by Lomapaseo (Post 34409883)
I don't understand. What does the new scanner have to do with the finding of water . Does it ignore it and only go for mixtures?

Will my C-PaP still trigger a secondary inspection with the dregs left ?
I have no idea. It's very possible it doesn't even have anything to do with the machines but they just changed the policy at the same time. Or the machines are able to distinguish benign liquids (water, juice, soda) from potentially dangerous liquids.

johan rebel Jul 9, 2022 11:28 am
Originally Posted by Xandrios (Post 34410144)
How would KLM manage to do this, as quite a few flights would likely surpass that 15%
Maybe because a substantial proportion of KL's transfer pax do not have to go through security at AMS? And those who do go through security do so once, but are counted twice, once as an arriving pax, and then again as a departing one.

Johan

GUWonder Jul 9, 2022 12:15 pm
I’ve been on some flights where 30+% of the passengers are either FPP elites or are otherwise premium pax on the flights. Seems to me that there probably is no 15% maximum users limit per flight. That doesn’t rule out the possibility that the airport may provide a limited included allowance for an airline that is aggregated across an airline’s flights for a period.

Originally Posted by Xandrios (Post 34409660)
From KLM's perspective its something that will cost them extra though. I don't know how they count and charge, but pax going through the priority lane are charged an extra fee to the airline.
Are all airlines at AMS paying a priority line fee that is charged on a per priority line-using traveler basis? And is the fee and fee structure uniform across all airlines at AMS?

Or is it that at least some of that passenger access allowance is packaged in as part of the airport fees that the airlines are paying AMS anyway, and the airlines’ airport fees come with a priority line-user allowance included that isn’t necessarily charged on a per user basis?

hhdl Jul 9, 2022 1:40 pm
Originally Posted by Xandrios (Post 34410144)
I was not aware of this. Always was under the impression that this is something the airline would have to pay a fee for. How would KLM manage to do this, as quite a few flights would likely surpass that 15%.

A typical short haul flight has 4 rows of business (16 pax). Then it has 150 economy pax. Out of those, I'm guessing, 5% may be elite and 5% on Flex tickets. That means 31 priority pax out of the 25 allowed with that 15% rule.
Connecting pax would generally not go through security at Schiphol (and is there even a priority security line for connections?). Further, for any given short haul departure from AMS, the connecting pax are earning at least double the XP of the originating pax (at least a short haul incoming flight), so it's likely that most of the elite+ pax are connecting. Additionally, short haul business might also be more likely to be connecting, simply because the short haul business product isn't really worth buying by itself (as much as it's the case that DL bundles short haul J for free in exchange for elite status, it's at least the case that AFKL bundle short haul J for free in exchange for buying a long haul J ticket).

Of those 31, it might have been (pre Covid) 15 we're originating from AMS, so less than 10%, and maybe 2 or 3 of those were traveling with a companion (on a leisure route, more companions, but probably no flex tickets). Now there's more elites, more leisure, and more originating pax...

CyBeR Jul 9, 2022 2:11 pm
Originally Posted by GUWonder (Post 34410762)
Seems to me that there probably is no 15% maximum users limit per flight.
It is not per flight, no. So a very elite-heavy flight primarily used by business flyers is compensated for by a flight to a holiday destination with relatively few elites.

GUWonder Jul 9, 2022 2:58 pm
Originally Posted by CyBeR (Post 34411008)
It is not per flight, no.
So it seems the same way to you as it does to me on what I said.

Where is this claimed 15% maximum thing in documents from Schiphol or in contracts between Schiphol and the airlines using Schiphol?

erik123 Jul 9, 2022 3:04 pm
Originally Posted by GUWonder (Post 34411106)
So it seems the same way to you as it does to me on what I said.

Where is this claimed 15% maximum thing in documents from Schiphol or in contracts between Schiphol and the airlines using Schiphol?
I wonder how they would know as the scanner doesn't seem to have a clue about anything - except that you have a legit boarding pass. You could pass thru the scanner twice with the exact same boarding pass if you feel like it (as I have).

GUWonder Jul 9, 2022 3:12 pm
Originally Posted by erik123 (Post 34411117)
I wonder how they would know as the scanner doesn't seem to have a clue about anything - except that you have a legit boarding pass. You could pass thru the scanner twice with the exact same boarding pass if you feel like it (as I have).
For the passenger security charges AMS charges the airlines — and there are some charges per transit passengers (regardless of whether or not a transit passenger must clear a security screening checkpoint at AMS to transit) and higher charges per originating passengers — the airport counts on airline reporting of the O2 passenger counts for what is deemed due to Schiphol. [Unlike O2s, the under 2-years-old passengers aren’t required to be included in the counts for charging.]

The above is not specific to SkyPriority at AMS, but it is specific to AMS.

CyBeR Jul 9, 2022 3:13 pm
Originally Posted by GUWonder (Post 34411106)
So it seems the same way to you as it does to me on what I said.

Where is this claimed 15% maximum thing in documents from Schiphol or in contracts between Schiphol and the airlines using Schiphol?
https://www.schiphol.nl/en/operation...urity-filters/

The relevant (first) document is in Dutch however. The second is in English but is only about how to encode 'premium' status in the barcode on the boarding pass.

CyBeR Jul 9, 2022 3:15 pm
Originally Posted by erik123 (Post 34411117)
I wonder how they would know as the scanner doesn't seem to have a clue about anything - except that you have a legit boarding pass. You could pass thru the scanner twice with the exact same boarding pass if you feel like it (as I have).
They don't (currently, to my knowledge) do any more access control than 'is this bp valid', but they are most certainly capable of and almost certainly do count how many pax go through them. And they know which gate is assigned to priority lanes and which isn't.

GUWonder Jul 9, 2022 3:17 pm
Originally Posted by CyBeR (Post 34411141)
https://www.schiphol.nl/en/operation...urity-filters/

The relevant (first) document is in Dutch however. The second is in English but is only about how to encode 'premium' status in the barcode on the boarding pass.
So mention of 15% max here per airline by season:

Originally Posted by Google
This percentage per season (summer or winter timetable) per individual airline is calculated as follows: ( # priority boarding passes scanned by SSBPC ports / total # boarding passes scanned by SSBPC ports) * 100.
9. The maximum percentage of passengers that may be regarded as "Premium" as a "premium" applies per individual airline and may in no way be transferred to another airline.

10. Schiphol reserves the right if the number of premium passengers exceeds the capacity of the resources consulted for the number of premium passages, in deviation from Article 8 and for a certain period, the maximum proportion of 15% premium passengers lower it to another number. This lower share is communicated account

Holding with a consultation period of 4 weeks and then applies to all airlines.
Monitoring and enforcement
11. Schiphol will monitor the amount of premium passengers per airline and test against the maximum share of premium passengers that is permitted. If the number of premium passengers exceeds this maximum, Schiphol will address the relevant airline and request the number of passengers to reduce premium status.
12. To this end, the airline will submit a proposal to Schiphol and indicate how the reduction of this share will be achieved and when the airline may have implemented this. This proposal must be offered to and discussed with the Schiphol Account Manager before the start of the new timetable.
13. If the airline also lets a too high proportion of premium passengers use the "priority passage" in the following periodic measurement, then Schiphol reserves the right, whether or not, all premium passengers of the….
Sounds to me like it would be possible for an airline at AMS to get by for even months on end with exceeding 15% premium passengers, but that if AMS discovers it they may want a remedial action plan from the airline to try to get back to 15% or below.

No mention of a per user premium charge to the airline for each SkyPriority passenger?

CyBeR Jul 9, 2022 3:20 pm
Originally Posted by GUWonder (Post 34411149)
So no mention of 15% max in there?
Even if you don't read Dutch it should be easy to spot the two mentions of '15%' in the first document.

Edit; I see you edited your post. The extra line breaks are messing up the translation of paragraph 10; that paragraph states that if Schiphol decides that 15% of pax is too much they will set a lower percentage, possibly temporarily, and notify all airlines of this change to be implemented four weeks afterwards.

---

Btw regarding the above discussion on the 15% and KLM; given that KL is Schiphol's largest customer by a huge margin I would not be surprised if they were instrumental in arriving at that percentage.

GUWonder Jul 9, 2022 3:33 pm
Originally Posted by CyBeR (Post 34411155)
Even if you don't read Dutch it should be easy to spot the two mentions of '15%' in the first document.

Edit; I see you edited your post. The extra line breaks are messing up the translation of paragraph 10; that paragraph states that if Schiphol decides that 15% of pax is too much they will set a lower percentage, possibly temporarily, and notify all airlines of this change to be implemented four weeks afterwards.

---

Btw regarding the above discussion on the 15% and KLM; given that KL is Schiphol's largest customer by a huge margin I would not be surprised if they were instrumental in arriving at that percentage.
I don’t have time for now to clean up the translation, but you’re welcome to do it.

johan rebel Jul 9, 2022 4:17 pm
Originally Posted by GUWonder (Post 34411149)
Sounds to me
as if Google is really lousy at translating Dutch. Not something I would dare base an opinion or interpretation on.

Johan

GUWonder Jul 9, 2022 4:24 pm
Originally Posted by johan rebel (Post 34411290)
as if Google is really lousy at translating Dutch. Not something I would dare base an opinion or interpretation on.

Johan
How much covfefe are SkyPriority companions spilling when not allowed to come along at AMS? ;)


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