Miso soup with Fish
 

We had some delicious, what I'm assuming was, miso soup a few times during our trip. The reason, I'm unsure is because the miso soup I'm used to in Vancouver typically has some seaweed & some small squares of tofu and a very simple salty taste to it. (And if I get it as part of a set, I usually give to my friend or wife.) However, the miso soups we had in Japan had a deeper fish flavour with a chunk of fish bone/stock material in the bowl.

This was miso soup that we had right? Is it normal to include the chunk of fish? The chunk of fish was more bone than flesh but are you supposed to scape off and eat the limited flesh?

TIA.

Were you eating in a lot of sushi places?

Miso shiru varies from region to region, and, supposedly from family to family (the ideal is that a child can pick out his/her mother's from the multitude). I've made dashi for miso shiru using shaved bonito plenty of times, I still haven't tried making it with dried sardines.

Also the additions to this soup will commonly vary according to the season. Lots of tiny little slimy mushrooms make it into the soup in October, and little clams are common in the winter.

I suppose that restaurants that serve sushi and sashimi end up with large quantities of good quality fish pieces near the bone and these will make a great addition to a stock.

Just my own conclusions from observation.

I don't know the secret of making miso stock (dashi) but it does involve a fair amount of shaved dried bonito and it seems other dried seafood and seaweed (for a more intense flavour). I guess the soup you had was because there was some fish trimmings available. I typically use sockeye trimming (I buy the whole gutted fish) and make a dashi with it. Haven't got the right flavour (not enough dried bonito?)

Come to think of it, I think you guys nailed it. I believe the places that I recall that included the fish chunk/bone were the couple of sushi places we ate at when we ordered a set. I still enjoyed the other miso soups we had at other restaurants better than what's mainly served here locally but wow what a difference a good stock makes.

LapLap is right. Miso soup is not one thing--it's more a category of soups. While tofu chunks and wakame in a light brown broth is the most common recipe, there are other common variations. Actually, miso itself comes in several varieties. The grocery department of a typical Japanese department stores has a whole counter devoted to different varieties of miso, ranging from light tan to dark reddish brown.

I'll assume you're also using kombu (vital).

Take a look at this clip, 4:31
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5cLK0T9d6I

I'm not sure what you mean about getting it 'right' as it's completely down to personal preference.

You might like to try using niboshi, it's possible that that's the taste you're hankering after.

Many sushi restaurants will serve miso with all kinds of fish leftovers in there, yum! Fishheads, fishheads, roly poly fishheads, fishheads, fishheads, eat them up yum!

OMD, Barnes & Barnes...

Having a problem with Flashbacks?

Yes, it is 1985 and I'm wearing leather pants, a silk shirt, Ray Bans and a mullet.

Are you letting Smidgen use the computer again?

Hey I resembled that remark back then. :)

And just how widespread was Dr. Demento? Thought it as more local. Obviously he was syndicated way beyond the borders of where I grew up. Learn something new everyday.

Even the mullet? I am sooo disillusioned.

Past the shoulders even.

Miso soup has changed my life. :)

Miso soup is my tradition whenever I have a Japanese meal.. always have it before the entree arrives. :D Theres just no other way I'd have it. Except for maybe mjm's special mabodofu outings! :D

Oh I just remembered. When I had Miso soup at the Ueno station one year I put my long chopsticks in the bowl only to be nearly freightened when theres a prawn's eye and head bobbing out at the surface peering me in the eye as if to say "Don't eat me, I'm salty!" I just took it out as calmly as I could and continued to enjoy the miso soup minus the prawn heads... *laughs* Such a scary day that it was but I had the sushi bar as well!

Sanosuke!

Special case here, I also harbour a fondness for Negativland (Booh! U2:td:) and The Residents.

Has it been this fishhead-loaded miso that has changed your life such that the thought of you with a mullet (or with any kind of cranial hirsuteness whatsoever, come to think of it) defines the concept of cognitive dissonance?

And before anybody wonders what the above means, keep in mind that this was dictated to me by Smidgen, and therefore my interpretation of what that says supersedes any translation into Japanese or other languages, such as English.

That actually sounds rather good.

The stuff inside a prawn's head (and inside a lobster's, crab's and similar) is often called 'miso' also. But 'nou miso' apparantly has a wider meaning than just this. What I'm learning now is that, in the 80s at least, when raw it was often topped with mullet.

Nah, just a getting back on topic measure. What defines cognitive dissonance for me with specific reference to this discussion, disregarding for the moment the diminishing hirsuteness of my parsing engine and contextualizer container, is that a mullet as enhanced as only a Supercuts feathered brushback can enhance it would have seemed in any way less than completely and utterly absurd at any point in time. The photographs do not lie, but oh how they make me chortle.

When construing the meaning above, reference shall be made to the orginal Japanese however, and the understood meaning shall neither take nor give precedence to either langauge.

Bah, Japanese soups...Something got lost on the way from China via Korea.

I'd LOVE to learn about other recipes that can make such a delicious and versatile broth using just 3 (or less) ingredients and in under 10 minutes cooking time.

Do you know of any?

Ah, it's a nice and simple soup but no match to the rich flavours of many Chinese broths. Maybe the comparison would be similar than Italian (Japanese) to French (Chinese) with Korean (Spanish?;)) in-between?

Spanish 'between' French & Italian? Sorry, that doesn't work at all (for a start, there's Spain's Muslim culinary heritage, but I could go on. And on, and on).

As far as I understood, the origins of dashi are humble, merely dried bonito shavings steeped in water. The addition of kombu, and, one presumes, miso came later.

I certainly don't belittle the enormous influence China has had on the foods of the countries that surround it (Italy certainly owes a string of debts to this great nation) but when it comes to dashi and miso soups you might as well say:

"Bah, something got lost on the way from India via China and, perhaps, Korea."

The popularity of grain and bean misos in Japan being more of a lifestyle decision based on the popularity/influential power of Buddhism than a preference for the actual food.

My own analogy would be different - it's like you've compared breakfasts, miso soup being this (developed to suit diets of abstinence), the Chinese soups you're comparing dashi based broths to being this.


Dashi reminds me of a Zen stone garden. The genius of this broth isn't what's in it, it's what isn't.

Miso soup you get at a sushi shop is called "aka dashi". It's definitely darker and more flavorful than "regular" miso shiru.

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I tend to use darker misos myself (traditionally made kinds wherever possible), so I thought that 'aka dashi' was just miso soup made with the red (aka) variety of miso, hence the 'stronger' taste.

Is it your experience that sushi shops usually serve this kind of miso soup? And if so, is it limited to sushi shops in a certain price range?

I know that konacha (a strong tasting green tea made from the powder/leavings of sencha production) is the typical brew of the sushi-ya. However, I hadn't experienced/noticed that red miso was usual for making the soup. But then I don't go to many kaiten sushi places.

Can you expound? I'm rather curious for your view on this.

Must be a price range I'm not used to. I usually find akadashi (either with asari or with nameko) at tempura restaurants.

My own experience has been that the sushi shops will often have both an akadashi for thems that likes the more fermented red style (I think that is why it is stronger) and something more mild for those with a yen for the more more sappari flavor. Sometimes both are not available the same day but are will be offered on different days.

I still think a good Shirasu pizza is the answer for the discerning palate though. ;) Of course that brings into question the Italian vs. the Japanese position in the pecking prder to which earlier reference was made.

Mike

If it helps, whilst clearing out a cupboard the other day I used nagaimo to make an okonomiyaki style dish with fistfuls of crumbled Calbee Pizza potato chips (the kind flavoured with snotty gobs of processed cheese). Another fine, and rather exciting, example to add to the expansive range of fusion cooking classics currently revitalising these tired, derivative 'underdog' cuisines. :)

Duplicate

You fed that to the dog? I'm calling the RSPCA.

Whether an underdog or a superdog... Dogs are people too, dontcha know?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iw0yfiRz9zY

You might want to rethink that stance.

Traditionally, dashi is made with only kombu and either bonito flakes (katsuobushi), sardines (niboshi) or shiitake. The bonito type is most common. Other fish parts, shrimp heads, crab, etc. wouldn't be part of the dashi (stock), but would be added later. In particular, a Japanese chef would never use sockeye trimmings due to the strong flavor. You can certainly make a delicious fish stock with all sorts of fish parts, it just isn't what most Japanese would consider dashi. Having said this, it is pretty rare in Japan, except at fairly upscale restaurants, for people to make their own dashi anymore. They typically use "hondashi" or some other powder that is just added to water. For those who make their own dashi, I would guess 99%+ use only kombu and bonito flakes.

Regarding the other comments about akamiso, I would concur with the poster who said it isn't a matter of quality just taste preference. I've been to extremely high sushi restaurants that serve miso soup made from white miso, and many that offer a choice.

Finally, it's possible the soup the OP had wasn't miso at all. Many people who aren't that familiar with Japanese cuisine assume all soup served at a sushi restaurant is "miso soup". I hope I'm not insulting anyone by pointing out unless it is cloudy, it doesn't have miso in it and some sushi restaurants serve clear soup (with various things in it) to finish the meal.

There is a restaurant in Santa Clara, CA that serves lobster sashimi. They would take the head and tail and make a miso soup with it.

Likewise if they serve ama-ebi sashimi, the head would be in a soup or deep fried.

One day this particular lobster decided to crawl off the plate. One guest practically jump out of his skin.

I think you may be exhibiting a regional bias with that figure about bonito shavings.

I'm not so sure that only 'upscale' restaurants make dashi from scratch. Saying that, miso soup doesn't exactly showcase a good dashi broth as the taste of the miso will swamp the delicate flavours. So, where miso is added to the broth, and where dashi is used as a cooking condiment, I agree, it is often the case that commercially prepared dashi (as a concentrate or powder) is used.

But it's not always to do with the perceived 'class' of the restaurant. There are many modest establishments that specialise in 'simple' dishes where the success of the food is almost dependent on the dashi making skills of the chef. This seems to be particularly the case with soba and udon. In many of these places, making dashi from scratch is more economically viable than one might expect as the dried fish can be re-used. Dashi made with first infusion tasting different to the subsequent infusion (niban dashi) which will have a different use (miso soup being a prime example).

I'm wary of generalising too much about what people eat in restaurants on this forum. Whilst I wouldn't expect Yoshinoya, Royal Host and Nakau to be making dashi from scratch, the experience of visitors to Japan won't necessarily reflect the reality of what's available. What I mean is that a visitor (certainly a Flyertalk reader) is more likely to be eating dishes made with real dashi than any statistics might suggest by following advice from guidebooks and concierges, acting on recommendations and by conducting their own research on where to eat. Even if it is true about the rarity of 'lower end' establishments making their own dashi, this wouldn't necessarily be the experience of a visitor with a real interest in Japanese food, even those with smaller budgets. It certainly hasn't been mine.

(Sorry about any perceived nit-picking, it's just that your statement could be viewed with unnecessary pessimism by those who can't afford to eat at higher end places)

Oh, no intention to diminish Spanish culinary achivements. Would be very hard to do so with all the acclaim. :) But the Japanese/Italian and Chinese/French comparison I still find rather fitting.

Very interesting to read, cheers. Korean simple soups are not entirely dissimilar.

This is also very interesting. I try to dig up something on this as well.

Well, Chinese home cooking has a variety of "balance" and "digestif" function soups. Like the omnipresent tomato and egg soup, noodles with seaweed but also Sichuanese very mild broths to offset all the fiery other dishes.

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The Sichuanese fish soup I had yesterday was not minimalist for sure. Mmm, moght actually go for seaweed and miso afterwards...

The acclaim is quite recent, I assure you. I don't imagine for a moment you would have felt the same way back in the 1970s or early 80s.

I've no doubt it fits beautifully with your prejudices, oops, perceptions of these diverse and vibrant cuisines.

My opinion is that China is ill served by the France comparison, even taking into account variations in French regional cuisine, it's just too small and narrow to encompass the staggering breadth of what is and has been (pre Cultural Revolution) on offer across China.

With so many techniques and ideas to pillage and plunder, surely the most interesting part when considering similarities in cuisines with the countries surrounding this enormous empire is "why did certain foods get adopted and not others?".

I'm still considering the same questions today with regards to Japan, how did prawn gratin, Napolitan Spaghetti, corn pottage, menchikatsu, beef curry all become popular Japanese foods?

More importantly, when the rest of the world can choose the 'original' version (of the following dishes) why is it that Ramen, Tempura and Tonkatsu are becoming so immensely popular elsewhere? Most bewildering to me is why is anybody eating the British inspired Japanese Curry when there are a surfeit of delicious alternatives?

When looking at the the past one can easily attribute the successful export of certain foods to the influence of religion on the culture, now the reasons aren't nearly so clear cut. And this influence of fashions and trends is muddied further when people make choices in deciding and declaring their preferences as a way of defying the prodding of popular culture. Now that Japanese food has attained a high status in many societies this causes an inevitable backlash against it resulting in a convoluted inverse snobbery in some.

"Upscale" was a misleading and unfortunate choice of words on my part. I'd still adhere to the 99% figure. However, many of the restaurants that make their own dashi might be modest looking establishments that nevertheless take a traditional approach to making their food. This would (likely) include traditional handcrafted soba restaurants. Furthermore, many places with upscale appearances use hondashi.

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Thanks for clarifying your points. On the whole your assertions seem quite sound to me, but I have a Tokyo focus, so I can't dispute or support the claim that 99% of dashi (made from scratch) is made from bonito flakes.

The reason I'm uncomfortable with it is that everything I've read about other areas having a preference for dashi made with niboshi is supported by its availability at Japanese food shops in London. These tend to act as microcosms reflecting the prevailing cooking styles and requirements of people from throughout Japan. Anything too obscure or used too rarely just isn't stocked.

Enough arguin'. Let's eat. Smidgen is hungry.