mjm

Yeah, no. Respectfully I say that is nonsense as it causes anyone over the age of 22 to self-incriminate. And despite Japan's legal; system being messed as absurd as it is, I cannot fathom them trying to get people to self-incriminate. Nationality Law is pretty clear on holding dual nationality after age 22 and when discovered they can force you to give up the other one if they want.

So either the Nationality Law is wrong or this claim to require self-incrimination is wrong, but the two cannot exist as you would not be entitled to a passport one were naturalized elsewhere.

joejones

How would they "force you to give up the other one"? They ask you to declare to the Japanese government that you want to keep Japanese nationality. You have a douryoku gimu to complete the procedures in the other country to give up your other nationality, but there is no penalty if you fail to do so.

joejones

This is correct, but if you were born with both Japanese and foreign citizenship, you never naturalize in the foreign country so it isn't an issue.

mjm

Law says you may not hold two. So yeah, it kind of is an issue. If you decide to worry about it. Most don't.

As for how they would force you to give up your other nationality you should carefully read Articles 14 and 15 of the Nationality law. It says zilch about douryouku.

The two conditions, i.e. declaring a foreign nationality and the law saying you cannot have one are at odds. One or the other must be right. They cannot both be.

5khours

If anyone is interested in the facts.
1) There is no per se prohibition against holding dual nationality.
2) If you were born 1985 or later and hold dual citizenship you are required (but it is often not enforced at overseas embassies and consulates) to sign a statement at the time you apply for or renew a Japanese passport saying that you will endeavor to renounce your foreign citizenship, but there is no requirement to actually renounce your foreign citizenship. If you were born before 1985, there is no requirement to sign a statement.
3) Many countries (the US included) will not allow or recognize renouncement of citizenship if the reason is to comply with foreign countries' requirement for a single nationality so even if you wished to do so and signed papers renouncing foreign citizenship, the foreign country would just ignore it.

mjm

5khours

Beg to differ, but the statute does not make it all clear what the facts are because,

A declaration of choice has no legal bearing on foreign citizenship.
There is no legal mechanism in place to require a person to make the declaration of choice other than a written notice from the Minister of Justice, which has never been issued.
Even if a person makes the choice there is no requirement to actually renounce citizenship and only a requirement to endeavor to do so.
In most cases it's legally impossible to renounce foreign citizenship if the reason for doing so is to comply with the Japanese requirement for choosing a single nationality.

mjm

Beg all you want. The law is the law and interpretations of it are at one's own risk.

The law, as opposed tomop0inion says:
Declaration of choice requires one to try to get rid of foreign nationality.
Legal mechanism is spelled it in Art. 15.
In the US, which was cited earlier, renouncing citizenship is quite simply outlined here:
https://travel.state.gov/content/tra...ty-Abroad.html

Again thinking one knows better is fine, but we must also bear in mind the reality of the laws that define our societies.

5khours

Agree and since this is an important issue for some readers on this forum, I would suggest that posters base their comments on an understanding of the actual law (which does not consist of statute alone) and/or advice from Japanese attorneys rather than on a cursory read of the statute.

Yes. It requires you to try but not to actually get rid of foreign citizenship. And for dual nationals, there is no legal method or sanction under Japanese law for either forcing you to renounce foreign citizenship or for revoking Japanese citizenship unless you accept a position or employment with a foreign government agency or refuse to sign a (non-binding) declaration of choice.


Yes, and the mechanisms spelled out under Japanese law have no actual impact on foreign citizenship. Those are determined by the laws of the relevant country.

And as you will note a key component of renunciation is that it must be voluntary. The US courts and agencies have determined that compulsion under foreign law (unless you are applying for foreign nationality after the age of 18) by definition can NOT be voluntary and therefore you can not renounce citizenship to comply with Article 14 of the Japanese Nationality Act unless you perjure yourself. In practice consular officers at the US Embassy in Tokyo will automatically ask you if you are renouncing US citizenship in order to comply with Japanese law on dual nationals and send you straight home if you answer in the affirmative.

Which is why sound legal advice is crucial rather than relying on a web search and a simple cursory reading of the statute. Actual law is determined by statute; regulation, regulatory interpretation and practice relating to the statue; and judicial decisions and interpretation of the statute. For anyone in doubt or who is actually impacted by this issue, I would encourage you to consult (as I have done in the past) a Japanese attorney with expertise in this area.

mjm

Well, yes, I suppose a know it all attitude works in some quarters. But lets just for a minute act like there are others who know maybe a wee bit more abut some things than we do ourselves. Or not. Up to us all I suppose

About the only good advice in the preceding post is to consult a lawyer. A Japanese one. You know, the sort so known for advising risk. For those of you that don't live here, that was heavy sarcasm.
With a couple kids in this boat myself, I have spoken with lawyers extensively on this and other aspects of dual citizenship. Bottom line is the law is the law and any actions one takes are their own responsibility.

"In practice..." is hands down the single worst piece of advice ever given. It assumes all future actions will equal past ones. Lets hope readers are more cautious than that.

So folks, take the advice of, "It will be fine, don't worry, I know all sorts of stuff about Japan."

or....

Be your own counsel, and follow that voice to seek or not, as you see fit, further legal advice from a lawyer in Japan.

armagebedar

I think this thread has run its course.

Regards,
armagebedar
Japan forum moderator