Frontier's ever-changing route map
 

Has anyone else noticed that, if you look at Frontier's route map from your home airport and then, six months later, look again, it can be almost completely different? These guys seem to be entering and exiting markets like mad. Certainly an unconventional business plan for an airline. I guess they don't really expect anyone to be loyal or anything. I suppose they just think you're going to find their flight on a CRS and book it if it's cheaper, or be enticed to fly somewhere based on their latest 75% off fare.

I do notice.

It is pretty frustrating and hard to understand why they make the changes.

I was flying fairly regularly LAX-MCO but the route was discontinued. In its place I flew SAN-MCO a couple of times, even though it was a about a half hour longer drive to and from the airport, the price, elite perks and red eye schedule made it worth it.

They discontinued SAN-MCO to so there is currently no way to fly from Southern California to MCO that doesn't involve an 8 hour layover in Denver with Frontier.

Next month they are starting up ONT-MCO. I've never flown out of ONT, but it is about 15 minutes closer to me than LAX and the parking and traffic will sure make it a more convenient airport to fly out of than LAX.

Again, the price and the perks make it worth it to me so I'll be flying it until they decide they want to switch the route again.

Somehow in all this they still manage to operate two flights from my home airport, SNA to DEN every day. I've taken these a few times and each time they have been full, but there is no connecting flights that sync up with these for some reason in DEN. Every route that I see requires a super long layover there. Seems like odd flight times for some reason.

Any way, yes. Frontiers routes and scheduling are mostly perplexing to me.

I agree the worst aspect of Frontier is their constant route changes. I flew them a lot from ATL to MSY. The flights always seemed full, and their in flight product was good. Then after less than a year they abruptly discontinued the flights. I still fly them when I can but that is not frequently because they don't currently fly where I need to go.

They recently upgraded their frequent flyer program presumably in an effort to build loyalty, but it's hard for me to see how that can happen with a constantly shifting route map. True frequent fliers would be reluctant to switch. Of course they may be making enough selling points to the bank to make it profitable.

What's weirdest to me is that there's something in the industry called "spool." Basically, almost all new routes are expected to be money losers at the start and then, if your route selection is good, your bookings "spool" up as more travellers become familiar with your service.

Apparently Frontier's business model doesn't work on "spool." Or at least they have a very demanding definition of spool that requires the route to be massively successful from the start.

I would not think that constantly changing your routes would be a good business model for an airline. But they reportedly make money, so maybe I'm wrong. And as a private company, they don't have to release much financial information to the public, so we don't really know why they do what they do, and whether it's a successful strategy.

I wonder why this aspect of their business model has not attracted more attention.

What's interesting is that at Spirit, their new(ish) CEO Robert Fornaro -- who used to run AirTran -- is trying to make that airline more "normal." I'd call it a sober and traditional approach to running an airline. At the same time, Frontier is truly trying to be a "whole different animal," by doing things that other airlines don't do, and what seem at first glance to maybe be bad ideas. I've always thought that operating flights on what seem to be random days and constantly changing your city pairs would be a path to airline bankruptcy. But that hasn't happened, at least not yet.

Frontier is definitely the "throw spaghetti against a wall and see what sticks" airline. Seems like we get a new crop of trial-balloon destinations from ATL every year.

A key test of whether a route is NOT doing well is if they have to discount it quite a bit in July. A couple of years ago I took a long weekend in July to RDU at $58 RT and I knew the route wouldn't last. They dropped it at the first opportunity.

MEM was like that as well. I hate it that they can't seem to make MCI work and that's not there this year from ATL.

On the flip side, maybe AUS is under-served and has staying power, and SLC is a real broadside against DL. CVG, the former DL hub, looks wobbly.

Seems like the only place that's been semi-consistent from ATL is DEN, and they don't have enough flights there and the ones they do are at odd times. Markets like BHM and GSP are new, and in some cases you've only got 2/week frequencies.

It looks like they're simultaneously trying to be a hub carrier (DEN), a vacation-oriented carrier (MCO, LAS and the whole cold-to-hot bit) and a point-to-point LCC (WN, NK). Normally when you're caught between business models it's not a good thing, but OTOH I'm pretty sure the spool bit is not part of the plan in most places.

In times past a legacy carrier like DL or NW would do a scorched-earth dollar-for-dollar price match if a carrier like Frontier did a hub-to-hub nonstop like ATL-SLC, but with the consolidation and capacity discipline there's less inclination to price-match. Which is a good thing in that it gives Frontier space to operate, as weird as that sometimes looks.

I'd say TTN also. Having flights from the north to Florida in the winter- many carriers can do that, but, fortunately, F9 has been consistent with keeping ATL-TTN as well, albeit not daily, but year round. It also has been somewhat consistent keeping TTN-CLT/RDU (less than daily) with some coverage during the winter.

I find flights to and for Denver to be the most stable but that's probably becasue they are based in Denver. Anything in the east is up from grabs.

It's certainly nice for us in RDU. Frontier is now flying to a number of cities nonstop that no one else is (PWM, MDT, SYR, BUF, MKE, PBI etc.) and they're driving prices down on other segments. I just wish they hadn't dropped RDU-PHL as now one way prices on that route are high again.

I think it's really hard for Frontier to compete against a legacy carrier flying from their hub -- at least in most markets. There are just so many advantages of operating from your hub. So logic suggest that non-hub flying would be more profitable for them. But the problem is that the hub cities are where the people are. Frontier crams a lot of people onto their planes, so they need big markets to operate in. How many non-hub city pairs can fill up a Frontier flight? I don't think there are an unlimited number of such markets. And in non-hub pairs, Frontier may stll have to compete against Southwest -- and Spirit. But very low costs certainly help. The key is obviously for them to stimulate demand at fare levels that are still profitable. Since we don't know that much about their finances, we don't really know how successful they are at this. They do seem to be more profitable than one would initially think, given their odd route and scheduling practices.

I agree about PHL-RDU as that was a nice route, but when AA started matching the fare, it was obvious Frontier couldn't compete. And I see now they are dropping RDU-MDT. Interesting just 2 days ago I checked the price for RDU-MDT on September 15th and it was $19. Yesterday I went to book and see that September 15th is no longer available and they are discontinuing that route as of September 5th.

The idea that there was a market for nonstop service in a large jet between Raleigh and Harrisburg strikes me as, well, ridiculous. The fact that Frontier even tried this suggests to me that they've got more airplane deliveries than markets. This is, of course, their conundrum. The hubs are where the people are, but also where the legacy carriers are. And the legacy carriers are run by management teams who are pretty sophisticated in dealing with competitors, even those with lower costs.

I still think the most likely future for Frontier is to be bought by Spirit, but that's only if Frontier is worth anything at that point.

RDU-MDT is weak, but might have worked with F9's market stimulation and a bit more time. But AA was dropping roundtrip fares to $99 on this route (connections in CLT) which probably didn't help.

I'm not a huge fan of Frontier's service (from both an in-flight comfort standpoint and operational reliablilty), but I would always pick a Frontier nonstop over a legacy connecting flight. I think most other folks would as well. But you need to have enough pax for the nonstop service. Southwest has been at that point-to-point game for a very long time. Obviously, at Frontier's prices, there will be extra demand, but I'm not sure how many more markets there are in America that can sustain point-to-point service. I guess we'll be finding out!

For your sake I hope that all doesn't end up like GSO for CO back in the mid-1990s. :p

I sure hope not as far as being bought by Spirit. The last thing we need is more consolidation, especially with that culture.

Using alternative airports (Orlando Sanford, ISP, Long Beach, PIE, etc.) isn't an F9 invention, but one of the problems pax often run into in these places is that car rents can ruin the deal if those are needed. Whenever you have just the 3 biggest companies there you get much worse pricing, and you can even go to 6 or 7 options and have it still pricey if they're the wrong ones.

I' seeing plenty of $19 to $37 fares from PHL to CHS and SAV this week on Frontier. I'm guessing these routes will also be axed in the next round of schedule changes. :) A shame because these are the types of somewhat popular destinations that are usually too far to drive but too expensive to fly (like 2x PHL-Florida fares).

It'd be a shame for those routes to be cut, but at the same time, it has to compete against AA that might fare match. And routes come and go too soon from F9. Pax know to look at F9 and NK for cheap flights to MCO, but might not be well aware of these other destinations and there are low fares down there.

At ACY, Spirit doesn't have to worry about AA, but then it also loses out on a lot of potential passengers. For example, Spirit is trying ACY-MSY and it seems to be pretty low fare for the over 2 1/2 hr. long distance. I almost forgot about it, but came across it again when it showed up as a connection to somewhere else. The fares are pretty low for right now sometimes less than a week out, that I'd guess it's not performing well and likely another failed ACY route in the works. NK would have likely done better restoring ACY-ORD this summer, or maybe offering MSY from PHL, but I'd give Spirit credit for adding it and giving it a run.

CHS/SAV and MSY are leisure but are niche relative to MCO/FLL/TPA. I actually booked a ticket on ACY-MSY and then 10k UA miles on MSY-IAH. The UA mile redemption is high, and fares to Houston are so expensive out of Philly. The major Texas markets DFW and IAH are markets that need more ULCC and there is enough people going back and forth between PHL and Texas. F9 has less than daily service, but taking a red-eye on IAH-PHL isn't my cup of tea. The westbound flight seems to be doing well. It's sold out this weekend.

Spirit doesn't seem particularly successful at ACY, but their operation "lingers." I guess the problem is population density, and there's little reason (most of the time) for Philadelphians to make the trip out there. Still, this has been the situation for years, and Spirit hasn't pulled the plug, so ACY must be at least marginally profitable.

I truly doubt there is enough traffic for a ULCC from PHL to CHS and SAV but if these routes don't work, how many will? Obviously, the Central and South Florida routes have virtually unlimited demand at the right price. But Frontier seems to be taking a seasonal approach to these routes from Philly, only flying them at peak times. If Florida only works at peak, there's no way CHS and SAV will work at all.

Frontier has introduced a bunch of Texas routes form PHL, but I have no idea how well they do. Obviously, there are a lot of people in the big Texas cities and without Frontier or Spirit, those flights are going to be expensive. So they can certainly stimulate demand at lower fares, but they can also get into trouble when the big boys match. I've bought a $100 roundtrip fare on UA from IAH to PHL in the past year, and I don't think the cheapest Basic Economy fares are much more expensive now.

Last minute fares on United's PHL-IAH are quite expensive. Of course, it's the summer - peak season, but if I want to fly any day next week on a nonstop, and book a one-way, it's $718, on any of UA or AA's nonstops. WN doesn't price competitive out of PHL to HOU. One has to look at BWI. For those that don't want to trek to BWI or EWR, but originate from PHL - F9 should be able to profitably fill seats on the westbound when UA and AA have a highway robbery fare. F9's return is an uncomfortable red-eye, with a 4am arrival in PHL. The fare for this Wednesday night (8/1) is $39. But, F9 operates a daytime AUS-PHL and it's fares are higher and likely performing well. The SAT-PHL flight was an early flight, but it appears to be changing to a late afternoon flight in August.

One has to book much in advance to get United's Basic Economy. On my ACY-MSY flight, I think there were a number of passengers who were connecting to DFW and the flight was 90-95% full. I don't know if it makes it profitable, but many of Spirit's flights are connection friendly to a few markets. e.g. if I go on Spirit's site, and check ACY to DFW, there are typically 2 decent 1 connection flights and fares under $150 on most days to stimulate some travel between the markets. With F9's website and network out of PHL and TTN, it's almost impossible to find one stop itineries aside from DEN connections.

I'm not surprised that's UA's strategy. The idea is undoubtedly to hurt Frontier with the leisure crowd, but assume that there are very few business travellers who will fly them. Still, given the population density at both ends, this may be a route that could work for both airlines. At $718, you're likely flying F9 if it's your own money.

Unfortunately, F9 doesn't really try to make the route work. Less than daily is fine and it flies under the UA/AA's radar a bit, but the red-eye 4am arrival is unpopular enough that the route can only work when the travel season is at it's highest peak.

I figured the eastbound flight wouldn't work after Labor Day, but F9 is actually discontinuing the route on 8/11. The say F9 is seasonal, but F9 finds a way to shrink the already short summer season.

I ask this question every few months, and have yet to find an answer. How can you find out Frontier's actual city-to-city routes? Is there a schedule that they have to submit to the DOT?

The website is completely wrong. Some "city pairs" that they say exist do not, and others are East Coast city/DEN/East Coast city, which is worthless. You literally have to type in every potential city pair and check the calendar to see if the flight even exists.

Why do they hate their customers?

Edit: I just found a city-pair that they fly TO, but not BACK (TPA-MCI). I'm not joking. Do they have drunken monkeys throwing darts at a map?

I can't vouch for its accuracy but I found this:

https://flights.flyfrontier.com/en/sitemap/city-to-city-flights/page-1

When do you see TPA to MCI but not returning? It was seasonal last winter but I can't find it back in their future schedule at all.

Many smaller airlines have service only one way from some cities at some times. It's usually because there are no "legal" connections. The cities change as the schedules get updated. You can find them on Southwest for foreign destinations all the time.

Try to book the Tampa to Kansas City flight, either on their website or their app and you will see what I mean. You can fly there, but the flights vanish when you try to return.

The list that the previous poster provided from their website is completely inaccurate and does not show the actual flights.

Example 1 is Tampa to Nashville. It does not exist. The remaining flights are not actually City to City flights. A vast majority of them require you to fly to a hub city, stay overnight and then fly to another city the next day.

My question, yet again, is how to determine where Frontier planes actually fly. I cannot find an actual source of that information.

Just check wikipedia and verify from the airline website. For example, google wikipedia PHX and it will show all the destinations that Frontier and Spirit fly out of the PHX airport. And then verify from the airline website.

Yeah, I use wikipedia as my first tool when I'm trying to figure out where airlines fly. It's not just Frontier that makes this difficult. Like a simple question of which European cities DL flies to from JFK is not easily answered on Delta's website. I have no idea why. Southwest at least lets you toggle over your city to find nonstop and connecting routes. This seems like a no-brainer thing. I guess some of the folks who design airline websites are bad with geography.

At least with Delta at JFK, you kind of know it's going to be covering European markets of high popularity to lesser popularity. With Frontier at certain markets, it's guesswork. From Philly, Frontier doesn't offer Vegas, Chicago, Atlanta - but it tried Birmingham, Madison and Grand Rapids! I got to say BHM as a destination choice from PHL was the most poorest of destination choices. But it was amusing but it's kind of like negating some the good will it has built up on the 2-3x daily PHL-MCO by offering crapshoot markets as new destinations to complement it.

Anyone have any insight on the LAX-COS route for 2019? It only ran for a few months this year, but it was super convenient. The frontier website only shows the seasonal route as of last year.

ATL continues to get the really awful camp-out-in-DEN-airport "connections" to places via the Denver hub. You'd think a top priority would be to get those working more smoothly to/from the biggest cities that have the biggest potential markets for the connecting routes. But from ATL they don't have the fares or the schedule to have same-day connections via DEN to many places. It's not like a city like BHM or GSP or even BNA will have that many people looking to go to ELP, RNO, GEG or someplace like that. But with ATL they're really missing a bet because the only non-stop option for some of those places might be DL (charging a lot) and WN might not be that great, either.

I've flown connections on award tickets (though no camp-outs to date), but lately it seems like every time I check there's a nasty overnight involved...that situation seems to be getting worse rather than better. Seems like only the non-stops work.

Agreed. F9 seems to price based on segments, with sometimes odd and ill-timed connections pricing far higher than the nonstop, unlike almost every other carrier out there, which computes the route cost, then prices start point to end point, adding on PFCs and TSA money grabs.

Raising this thread from the dead for my annual request:

Now that I have the Frontier status match, it's time to again attempt to discover when/where they actually fly. Wikipedia used to do an okay job, but post-covid the F9 routes are completely wrong for departing airports, and Wikipedia will fight you if you attempt to correct them. So is there a DOT site or a source for Frontier nonstops? Nowhere on their website do they provide information as to where they fly point-to-point.

I use FlightsFrom.com to look where they fly. I used DEN as an example.

Thank you. That is an attractive site. Also extremely buggy and inaccurate. My initial searches for F9 routes from TPA lists an incomplete set of nonstop cities, missing several that I know exist. For the remaining cities, the site states "We don't have any scheduled departures between TPA and [CITY] for this date" on dates when there actually is a flight). If you click on the date that says "0 flights" it sends you to Kayak, where it tells, yes, a flight actually does exist.

I'm not sure how the data on this site can be so inaccurate, since it looks like it is using data directly from the airlines.

I use google flights explore set to F9 only.

That is not an option on Google Flights for any combination of cities and dates. You can choose all airlines or just an alliance.
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...fbdd5cee6e.jpg