Sep 23, 2016, 8:27 am
Last edit by: Purjelentaja
Finnair offers only limited catering on some of their longhaul flights.
"BusinessLight" or "Midnight Menu" or limited catering means that the main meal consists of one tray only and no appetizer. Typically, the service includes a small green salad, a hot main course and cheeses. Additionally, ice cream will be offered along with coffee and tea.
This service concept applies to the following flights: (PLEASE ADD MORE FLIGHTS TO THE LIST!)
AY6 JFK-HEL (Note: hot midflight snack available on request; only cold breakfast available)
AY8 MIA-HEL
AY10 ORD-HEL
AY27 HEL-SGN
AY28 SGN-HEL
AY69 HEL-HKG (not actual BusinessLight, but Midnight menu-concept)
AY81 HEL-SIN (not actual BusinessLight, but Midnight menu-concept)
AY82 SIN-HEL (not actual BusinessLight, but Midnight menu-concept)
AY121 HEL-DEL
On other AY longhaul flights, the main meal service is more substantial and consists of an appetizer and/or soup, main meal, cheese and dessert.
"BusinessLight" or "Midnight Menu" or limited catering means that the main meal consists of one tray only and no appetizer. Typically, the service includes a small green salad, a hot main course and cheeses. Additionally, ice cream will be offered along with coffee and tea.
This service concept applies to the following flights: (PLEASE ADD MORE FLIGHTS TO THE LIST!)
AY6 JFK-HEL (Note: hot midflight snack available on request; only cold breakfast available)
AY8 MIA-HEL
AY10 ORD-HEL
AY27 HEL-SGN
AY28 SGN-HEL
AY69 HEL-HKG (not actual BusinessLight, but Midnight menu-concept)
AY81 HEL-SIN (not actual BusinessLight, but Midnight menu-concept)
AY82 SIN-HEL (not actual BusinessLight, but Midnight menu-concept)
AY121 HEL-DEL
On other AY longhaul flights, the main meal service is more substantial and consists of an appetizer and/or soup, main meal, cheese and dessert.
Reduced Business Class Service on certain longhauls
Feb 20, 2016, 1:14 pm
#1
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Reduced Business Class Service on certain longhauls
AY has three different long haul J concepts – the regular one, the midnight menu one for late night departures (after 11 pm) and the ”lomanoloisen reittilennon bisnesluokka”, which could be translated as leisure-oriented scheduled flight business class (yes, this concept does have a name, although AY only uses it internally).
I’ll call the latter concept BusinessLight to make things easier. The name is not official, it’s my own invention but it describes this reduced long haul J pretty well IMO.
We’ve discussed BusinessLight in several topics, but I think it might be a good idea to create a dedicated topic for it. AY attracts many first time fliers, and every so often we see these new topics where the contents is nothing more than ”I’ll be flying AY to XXX, what should I expect”. Perhaps this topic could reduce the number of those…
My experiences are from MIA flights, so all amendments are very welcome. However, the concept should be more or less the same for other BusinessLight destinations as well. Anyway, here’s what it’s all about.
For certain leisure-oriented scheduled destinations, AY operates a reduced J service. This mostly concerns meal service and is also reflected in the price of your ticket. Expect to pay around €1400–1700 for an I class ticket ex-HEL. Full fare tickets are available, but unless you book at the last minute, J is very affordable on these routes.
The destinations covered by the BusinessLight concept include (winter 15/16) MIA, HKT, KBV and SGN. A senior FA who I spoke to during the flight was fully aware of this concept, for which she also gave a name. She was under the impression that AY communicates the concept to its customers, too, but in reality, this is not the case. You will only find out once on board (or when reading FT of course). Flights to HAV and POP continue to be leisure flights (charter flights) but these flights seem to feature the same concept nevertheless.
For BusnessLight, you can expect usual points accrual, lounge access, priority boarding, predeparture drinks, newspapers and an amenity kit. Socks and slippers are available on request only. Obviously, the seat is a regular J seat and IFE is your usual J stuff, too.
The reductions apply to the meal service. They will not take your order separately – the only choice you will have is for the main course of the main meal and they will ask you about your choice when the trolley reaches you.
Instead of an amuse bouche, you will be offered a small cup of cold mixed nuts. You will receive a menu, but the main course selection is limited to two items only. On my flight, these were fish (sander) and beef (stew); if you require a vege meal, make sure to order one in advance. There is no soup. The same menu is in use for MIA, HAV and POP. According to the purser of my MIA flight, there is J service to HAV (and probably POP, too) even if those flights are not scheduled ones. I don’t know how to book them and what the points accrual for a HAV J flight would be. The wine menu, on the other hand, is the regular J one and all drinks are free of charge throughout the flight.
Your meal will be presented on a single tray, including an appetizer (no choice here), a main course (which cannot be preordered; MIA is an exception here, there’s a limited preorder selection available both ways), cheese for dessert and a coffee cup. The usual selection of breads will be offered. You will get one fork only, but two knives. After your tray is cleared away, you will be offered coffee and tea as well as Häagen Dazs ice cream.
After the main meal service, there is a very limited snack service on offer. It includes the same mixed nuts that you got as amuse bouche, Fazer Blue chocolate, brioches and small cheese rolls as well as drinks.
The ”light meal” before arrival comes on a single tray, with no separate tablecloth, and is limited to a small and very basic green salad, a hot main course (ravioli on my flight) with no choices available and dessert – a couple of pieces of fresh fruit (apple, cantaloupe, pineapple) were offered on my flight.
It would be interesting to hear about Asian BusinessLight flights. Any Asian crew members? Any Asian items on the menu? Fast track immigration available at the outstations?
I’ll call the latter concept BusinessLight to make things easier. The name is not official, it’s my own invention but it describes this reduced long haul J pretty well IMO.
We’ve discussed BusinessLight in several topics, but I think it might be a good idea to create a dedicated topic for it. AY attracts many first time fliers, and every so often we see these new topics where the contents is nothing more than ”I’ll be flying AY to XXX, what should I expect”. Perhaps this topic could reduce the number of those…
My experiences are from MIA flights, so all amendments are very welcome. However, the concept should be more or less the same for other BusinessLight destinations as well. Anyway, here’s what it’s all about.
For certain leisure-oriented scheduled destinations, AY operates a reduced J service. This mostly concerns meal service and is also reflected in the price of your ticket. Expect to pay around €1400–1700 for an I class ticket ex-HEL. Full fare tickets are available, but unless you book at the last minute, J is very affordable on these routes.
The destinations covered by the BusinessLight concept include (winter 15/16) MIA, HKT, KBV and SGN. A senior FA who I spoke to during the flight was fully aware of this concept, for which she also gave a name. She was under the impression that AY communicates the concept to its customers, too, but in reality, this is not the case. You will only find out once on board (or when reading FT of course). Flights to HAV and POP continue to be leisure flights (charter flights) but these flights seem to feature the same concept nevertheless.
For BusnessLight, you can expect usual points accrual, lounge access, priority boarding, predeparture drinks, newspapers and an amenity kit. Socks and slippers are available on request only. Obviously, the seat is a regular J seat and IFE is your usual J stuff, too.
The reductions apply to the meal service. They will not take your order separately – the only choice you will have is for the main course of the main meal and they will ask you about your choice when the trolley reaches you.
Instead of an amuse bouche, you will be offered a small cup of cold mixed nuts. You will receive a menu, but the main course selection is limited to two items only. On my flight, these were fish (sander) and beef (stew); if you require a vege meal, make sure to order one in advance. There is no soup. The same menu is in use for MIA, HAV and POP. According to the purser of my MIA flight, there is J service to HAV (and probably POP, too) even if those flights are not scheduled ones. I don’t know how to book them and what the points accrual for a HAV J flight would be. The wine menu, on the other hand, is the regular J one and all drinks are free of charge throughout the flight.
Your meal will be presented on a single tray, including an appetizer (no choice here), a main course (which cannot be preordered; MIA is an exception here, there’s a limited preorder selection available both ways), cheese for dessert and a coffee cup. The usual selection of breads will be offered. You will get one fork only, but two knives. After your tray is cleared away, you will be offered coffee and tea as well as Häagen Dazs ice cream.
After the main meal service, there is a very limited snack service on offer. It includes the same mixed nuts that you got as amuse bouche, Fazer Blue chocolate, brioches and small cheese rolls as well as drinks.
The ”light meal” before arrival comes on a single tray, with no separate tablecloth, and is limited to a small and very basic green salad, a hot main course (ravioli on my flight) with no choices available and dessert – a couple of pieces of fresh fruit (apple, cantaloupe, pineapple) were offered on my flight.
It would be interesting to hear about Asian BusinessLight flights. Any Asian crew members? Any Asian items on the menu? Fast track immigration available at the outstations?
Feb 20, 2016, 2:15 pm
#2
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Join Date: May 2011
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Great thread and we should adding to this and maybe keep a wiki.
Interesting that they internally has conceptualized this but pretends like nothing to customers. It would be interesting to really know exactly what is in this concept. Because some of the things you mention are things I've seen on many flights and I don't frequent any of the leisure destinations.
For example, the all on one tray, the nuts instead of amuse, the one-fork-only, second meal without linen - all theses are very common on other routes too. Especially the midnight menus are very poor, in offerings and in service. (I am OK with offering a smaller meal for those who wants to sleep, but not OK with forcing substandard service on everyone)
And providing more than one fork hasn't been around for years. One-fork-only-concept came with marimekko, or perhaps even with the barfbag-amenitykit.
Some crews offers double utensil-sets (ie 2 forks, 4 knives), but I think that is a crew initiative and not part of the concepts.
Anyway, I'd say there seem to be at least 3 "concepts" in J; Business class, midnight-menu-class and business-leisure-class. All of them getting poorer all the time.
Interesting that they internally has conceptualized this but pretends like nothing to customers. It would be interesting to really know exactly what is in this concept. Because some of the things you mention are things I've seen on many flights and I don't frequent any of the leisure destinations.
For example, the all on one tray, the nuts instead of amuse, the one-fork-only, second meal without linen - all theses are very common on other routes too. Especially the midnight menus are very poor, in offerings and in service. (I am OK with offering a smaller meal for those who wants to sleep, but not OK with forcing substandard service on everyone)
And providing more than one fork hasn't been around for years. One-fork-only-concept came with marimekko, or perhaps even with the barfbag-amenitykit.
Some crews offers double utensil-sets (ie 2 forks, 4 knives), but I think that is a crew initiative and not part of the concepts.
Anyway, I'd say there seem to be at least 3 "concepts" in J; Business class, midnight-menu-class and business-leisure-class. All of them getting poorer all the time.
Feb 20, 2016, 4:40 pm
#5
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Thanks everyone! Wiki sounds good. I'm starting to think we might need a MidnightBusiness thread too... I flew HEL-SIN in December but don't remember the details all too well. Intuition, would you mind... 
Hartsa, I'll be flying MIA-HEL in about 1.5 weeks, so I'll let you know then! However, since AY is starting to offer MIA year-round and also changing the schedule to suit the Asian wave, ie allowing connections to and from all over Europe, I'm sort of hoping that they would upgrade the MIA flights to full service Business. I would find it hard to believe that they could fill the planes up with Finnish tourists all year round. They have to have some other customers in mind, too.
Hartsa, I'll be flying MIA-HEL in about 1.5 weeks, so I'll let you know then! However, since AY is starting to offer MIA year-round and also changing the schedule to suit the Asian wave, ie allowing connections to and from all over Europe, I'm sort of hoping that they would upgrade the MIA flights to full service Business. I would find it hard to believe that they could fill the planes up with Finnish tourists all year round. They have to have some other customers in mind, too.
Feb 20, 2016, 4:58 pm
#6
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A small note to my preordered reindeer ex-HEL: it was absolutely delicious. Perfectly cooked and ample in size. One of the best main courses I’ve had on a flight. I’ve had the reindeer before, but it has never been this good. Also the senior FAs working in J were outstanding. Friendly and attentive in that unobtrusive Finnish way.
From MIA, you have a choice of two preorder mains. I assume they are the same mains that are on the menu anyway, so basically what you can do is secure your choice so they don’t run out.
As a personal note, I actually like the BusinessLight concept. Last year I booked my MIA trip at the last minute, paying €3000, and was disappointed when the concept came as a full surprise. But now, paying €1600 and getting the seat (that’s my main reason for flying in J) and two decent meals seems like a much better choice than paying eg €1000 more for improved meals. So if the choice is basically BusinessLight for an affordable price or Business at the prices AY usually charge, then BL surely is my choice. But what I heavily criticize is the lack of communication of this concept – surely AY should tell their customers in advance that they are not getting a full J product.
From MIA, you have a choice of two preorder mains. I assume they are the same mains that are on the menu anyway, so basically what you can do is secure your choice so they don’t run out.
As a personal note, I actually like the BusinessLight concept. Last year I booked my MIA trip at the last minute, paying €3000, and was disappointed when the concept came as a full surprise. But now, paying €1600 and getting the seat (that’s my main reason for flying in J) and two decent meals seems like a much better choice than paying eg €1000 more for improved meals. So if the choice is basically BusinessLight for an affordable price or Business at the prices AY usually charge, then BL surely is my choice. But what I heavily criticize is the lack of communication of this concept – surely AY should tell their customers in advance that they are not getting a full J product.
Feb 20, 2016, 6:23 pm
#7
Join Date: Jul 2007
Programs: AY Gold
Posts: 596
I run to the BusinessLight concept on HKT-HEL in December, indeed you noticed some lightness comparing to the HEL-BKK leg.
Everything started super-efficiently, for the first time ever on AY I was personally escorted from check in through security and immigration, took just minutes. Don't know why this gesture, I had arrived early.
I got the the lounge access, predeparture drink, newspapers, proper headphones and a regular amenity kit but yes, socks and slippers were available on request only. Hot towels were available.
Yes, the reductions apply to the meal service. No amuse bouche, just nuts with the drink. The main meal was a lunch, mozzarella sallad for an appatizer, no choices. There were two main course choices, grilled pork or stir fried chicken, you could choose when the trolley reached you. Followed by a modest cheese selection, Thai ice cream, chocolate. All but the ice cream came on a single tray. The drink list was similar than on HEL-BKK, it seems Finnish Napue Gin is a new hit on AY too.
In the afternoon I asked for a coffee, it was served with a warm cinnamon bun.
The "light" meal before arriving in HEL, noodles with chicken, no choices. The portion actually felt more filling than the lunch.
The meals were ok, better what I expected but nothing like the A350-menu that was available on HEL-BKK. The atmosphere on the flight was kind of leisurish, the cabin crew was rather laid back, no Thai cabin crew members on this flight.
I paid EUR 1200 for the HEL-BKK/HKT-HEL flights in J, I found the quality-price ratio pretty good, even with BusinessLight
Everything started super-efficiently, for the first time ever on AY I was personally escorted from check in through security and immigration, took just minutes. Don't know why this gesture, I had arrived early.
I got the the lounge access, predeparture drink, newspapers, proper headphones and a regular amenity kit but yes, socks and slippers were available on request only. Hot towels were available.
Yes, the reductions apply to the meal service. No amuse bouche, just nuts with the drink. The main meal was a lunch, mozzarella sallad for an appatizer, no choices. There were two main course choices, grilled pork or stir fried chicken, you could choose when the trolley reached you. Followed by a modest cheese selection, Thai ice cream, chocolate. All but the ice cream came on a single tray. The drink list was similar than on HEL-BKK, it seems Finnish Napue Gin is a new hit on AY too.
In the afternoon I asked for a coffee, it was served with a warm cinnamon bun.
The "light" meal before arriving in HEL, noodles with chicken, no choices. The portion actually felt more filling than the lunch.
The meals were ok, better what I expected but nothing like the A350-menu that was available on HEL-BKK. The atmosphere on the flight was kind of leisurish, the cabin crew was rather laid back, no Thai cabin crew members on this flight.
I paid EUR 1200 for the HEL-BKK/HKT-HEL flights in J, I found the quality-price ratio pretty good, even with BusinessLight
Feb 21, 2016, 3:39 am
#8
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...
As a personal note, I actually like the BusinessLight concept. Last year I booked my MIA trip at the last minute, paying €3000, and was disappointed when the concept came as a full surprise. But now, paying €1600 and getting the seat (that’s my main reason for flying in J) and two decent meals seems like a much better choice than paying eg €1000 more for improved meals. So if the choice is basically BusinessLight for an affordable price or Business at the prices AY usually charge, then BL surely is my choice. ...
As a personal note, I actually like the BusinessLight concept. Last year I booked my MIA trip at the last minute, paying €3000, and was disappointed when the concept came as a full surprise. But now, paying €1600 and getting the seat (that’s my main reason for flying in J) and two decent meals seems like a much better choice than paying eg €1000 more for improved meals. So if the choice is basically BusinessLight for an affordable price or Business at the prices AY usually charge, then BL surely is my choice. ...
And if some routes have inferior J product, what will that do to the brand? Vietnam might turn into a good business destination in the not too far future. If such a business pax gets routed on AY once and gets an inferior J product, will he ask his travel agent to add Finnair to the prefered airlines?
Before, they had the leisure destinations separated from the scheduled ones, and that was clever because they could use surplus capacity, price it lower and offer any lowcost service because it wasn't hurting the brand. Now, if they keep up this reduced service, the brand will contain the values made up from such experience: mediocre hard product (too tightly packed J), bad soft product and still not price leading.
Feb 21, 2016, 4:27 am
#9
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,603
As a personal note, I actually like the BusinessLight concept. Last year I booked my MIA trip at the last minute, paying €3000, and was disappointed when the concept came as a full surprise. But now, paying €1600 and getting the seat (that’s my main reason for flying in J) and two decent meals seems like a much better choice than paying eg €1000 more for improved meals. So if the choice is basically BusinessLight for an affordable price or Business at the prices AY usually charge, then BL surely is my choice.
This is the same what happened a few years ago to the service in intra-European business class. They said that the service on longer routes should be better than on shorter routes. This enhancement was done by removing hot towels and appetizer. Later the hot meal was changed to salad/warm bread on TXL/HAM routes. I wonder if the hot meals have reintroduce because there are reportage mentioning hot meals on flights from CPH/OSL.
Feb 21, 2016, 4:29 am
#10
Join Date: Jul 2014
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Before, they had the leisure destinations separated from the scheduled ones, and that was clever because they could use surplus capacity, price it lower and offer any lowcost service because it wasn't hurting the brand. Now, if they keep up this reduced service, the brand will contain the values made up from such experience: mediocre hard product (too tightly packed J), bad soft product and still not price leading.
The compromises outlined in this thread sound like they've done a good job identifying which things matter the least.
Some thoughts:
- The number of points you get is very important, because it's a significant chunk of the year's status points. I would think twice about choosing such a flight if they were reduced.
- As long as the food is still better than in econ, for the reduced price I'm ok if it's not quite as elaborate.
- Having fewer options is fine too, but surely it makes no sense to not ask *before* the meal service? How does that save money? It's just reducing service for no benefit. I want all the personal attention I can get, and that's all free for the airline since the staff is there anyway.
- Alcohol service: While I'm very happy I won't need to pay for a couple of gin tonics, I can actually see this causing problems among the vacation crowd. Let's see, this might be the next thing they remove, and it wouldn't be entirely unjustified. Maybe they could at least give them to silver and up in that case.
- Breakfast: I quite enjoy being woken up with a nice breakfast just before landing. I hope standards are kept high here.
Last edited by heatsink; Feb 21, 2016 at 4:43 am
Feb 21, 2016, 4:33 am
#11
Join Date: Jul 2014
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After that, the second step is to reduce costs where they can to make it profitable without reducing the service to a problematic extent.
Feb 21, 2016, 5:43 am
#12
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Feb 21, 2016, 6:59 am
#13
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Did you get a printed menu? Did you happen to look at the last page with the code – do they use the same menus for HKT/KBV/SGN?
Feb 21, 2016, 7:07 am
#14
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There is of course some truth to this kind of reasoning. Many J pax are probably Aurinkomatkat customers who buy a week-long package holiday and upgrade (one way €320); and who will never find themselves in NRT or JFK J.
I do agree with you that it is a dangerous road. I am happy with BusinessLight and its prices, but should they start offering this concept on usual scheduled flights, they would be by far the most inferior J out there. That can hardly do them any good and I believe they know that. I'm not too afraid they would make such a mistake.
What I think they could do, however, would be to make Comfort a real Y+ product a la BA. Charge €3000 for J, €1200 for Y+ and €700 for Y, get good recliner seats with ample legroom and offer a BusinessLight style of meal service.
Feb 21, 2016, 7:50 am
#15
Join Date: Dec 2014
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Good and important thread, thank you.
IMO J should be J, no matter where the plane is flying to or from. AY's arguments about the cheap J tickets to leisurish destinations doesn't even hold true. AY was just recently selling cheap J tickets to JFK for around 1200€ and JFK has normal J. I paid 1600€ for HEL-SGN-HEL and got this fake J product. Many times I have bought ARN-HEL-BKK for less than 1600€ and received the original J.
And even if AY would decide to go with this so called light J product, that must be clearly told to customers.
Here are some examples from my SGN flights from December.
Nuts were served as an amuse-bouche that means greetings from kitchen – not snacks with pre-dinner cocktail! No soup, no salad were on offer. Starter (reindeer pate) and main course (arctic char) were both tasty and presented nicely but very small portions. And on top of everything, we were given only two options for main course (the other option was chicken with honey mustard sauce). Preorder menu wasn't available at all on this flight. Breakfast was cold smoke salmon omelette which was just okay.
On the return was served horrible chewy chicken and dry spaghetti. I tried once and and wasn't able to eat more. There was a full bar service, but champagne ran out after welcome drinks were served on the return flight.
IMO J should be J, no matter where the plane is flying to or from. AY's arguments about the cheap J tickets to leisurish destinations doesn't even hold true. AY was just recently selling cheap J tickets to JFK for around 1200€ and JFK has normal J. I paid 1600€ for HEL-SGN-HEL and got this fake J product. Many times I have bought ARN-HEL-BKK for less than 1600€ and received the original J.
And even if AY would decide to go with this so called light J product, that must be clearly told to customers.
Here are some examples from my SGN flights from December.
Nuts were served as an amuse-bouche that means greetings from kitchen – not snacks with pre-dinner cocktail! No soup, no salad were on offer. Starter (reindeer pate) and main course (arctic char) were both tasty and presented nicely but very small portions. And on top of everything, we were given only two options for main course (the other option was chicken with honey mustard sauce). Preorder menu wasn't available at all on this flight. Breakfast was cold smoke salmon omelette which was just okay.
On the return was served horrible chewy chicken and dry spaghetti. I tried once and and wasn't able to eat more. There was a full bar service, but champagne ran out after welcome drinks were served on the return flight.