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Old Jan 19, 2017, 10:33 am
FlyerTalk Forums Expert How-Tos and Guides
Last edit by: ffay005
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When seeking claims from AY, use this form: https://www.finnair.com/int/gb/infor...vices/feedbackAY will not accept claims by email, phone or in person.

Past decisions of the Court of Justice of the European Union (CJEU) relating to Regulation 261/2004 (by judgment date in chronological order):
  • Sturgeon v Condor (Case C-402/07): Passengers who reach their final destination at least 3 hours late because their flight was delayed are entitled to the amount of compensation laid down in Article 7 of the Regulation.
  • Wallentin-Hermann v Alitalia (Case C-549/07): ‘Extraordinary circumstances’ (which release airlines from their obligation to compensate passengers) do not include aircraft technical problems (unless the problem stems from events which, by their nature or origin, are not inherent in the normal exercise of the activity of the air carrier concerned and are beyond its actual control). See also van der Lans v KLM below.
  • Rehder v Air Baltic (Case C-204/08): Passengers can file a legal claim either in the jurisdiction of the place of departure or the jurisdiction of the place of arrival
  • Rodríguez v Air France (Case C-83/10): The term ‘cancellation’ in the Regulation includes the situation where the aircraft took off but had to return to the departure airport and passengers were transferred to other flights.
  • Eglītis v Latvijas Republikas Ekonomikas ministrija (Case C-294/10): At the stage of organising the flight, the airline is required to provide for a certain reserve time to allow it, if possible, to operate the flight in its entirety once the extraordinary circumstances have come to an end.
  • Nelson v Lufthansa (Case C-581/10): The Court reaffirmed its previous decision (Sturgeon v Condor).
  • Folkerts v Air France (Case C-11/11): Passengers on directly connecting flights who arrive at their final destination at least 3 hours late are entitled to compensation.
  • McDonagh v Ryanair (Case C-12/11): Even where a flight delay/cancellation is caused by ‘extraordinary circumstances’, the airline continues to be under a duty to provide care (in the form of accommodation, meals, transfers between the airport/hotel, telephone calls)
  • Finnair v Lassooy (Case C–22/11): The term ‘denied boarding’ in the Regulation covers cases where boarding is denied because of overbooking, as well as other reasons.
  • Moré v KLM (Case C-139/11): The time limit for filing a legal claim is based on the rules governing limitation periods in the Member State where the claim is filed.
  • Rodríguez Cachafeiro v Iberia (Case C 321/11): The term ‘denied boarding’ in the Regulation includes a situation where, in the context of a single contract of carriage (PNR) on immediately connecting flights and a single check-in, an airline denies boarding to some passengers because the first flight had been delayed and it mistakenly expected those passengers not to arrive in time to board the second flight.
  • Germanwings v Henning (Case C 452/13): The concept of ‘arrival time’, which is used to determine the length of the flight delay, refers to the time at which at least one of the doors of the aircraft was opened, as long as, at that moment, passengers were actually permitted to leave the aircraft.
  • van der Lans v KLM (Case C-257/14): ‘Extraordinary circumstances’ (which release airlines from their obligation to compensate passengers) do not include aircraft technical problems which occur unexpectedly, which are not attributable to poor maintenance and which are also not detected during routine maintenance checks.
  • Mennens v Emirates (Case C 255/15): Where passengers are downgraded on a particular flight, the ‘price of the ticket’ refers to the price of that particular flight, but if this information is not indicated on the ticket, the price of that particular flight out of the total fare is calculated by working out the distance of that flight divided by the total distance of the flight itinerary on the ticket. Taxes and charges are not included in the reimbursement of the ticket price/fare, unless the tax/charge is dependent on the class of travel.
  • Pešková v Travel Service (Case C‑315/15): A bird strike constitutes 'extraordinary circumstances'. However, even if a flight delay/cancellation is caused by an event constituting 'extraordinary circumstances', an airline is only released from its duty to pay compensation if it took all reasonable measures to avoid the delay/cancellation. To determine this, the court will consider what measures could actually be taken by the airline, directly or indirectly, without requiring it to make intolerable sacrifices. Further, even if all of these conditions are met, it is necessary to distinguish between the length of the delay caused by extraordinary circumstances (which could not have been avoided by all reasonable measures) and the length of the delay caused by other circumstances. For the purpose of calculating the length of the qualifying delay for compensation, the delay falling into the former category would be deducted from the total delay.
  • Krijgsman v SLM (C‑302/16): Where a passenger has booked a flight through a travel agent, and that flight has been cancelled, but notification of the cancellation was not communicated to the passenger by the travel agent or airline at least 14 days prior to departure, the passenger is entitled to compensation.
  • Bossen v Brussels Airlines (C‑559/16): On a flight itinerary involving connecting flights, the distance is calculated by using ‘great circle’ method from the origin to the final destination, regardless of the distance actually flown.
  • Krüsemann v TUIfly (C‑195/17): The spontaneous absence of a significant number of flight crew staff (‘wildcat strikes’) does not constitute 'extraordinary circumstances'.
  • Wegener v Royal Air Maroc (C‑537/17): The Court reaffirmed its previous decision (Folkerts v Air France).
  • Wirth v Thomson Airways (C‑532/17): Where there is a 'wet lease' (with the lessor carrier providing an aircraft, including crew, to the lessee airline, but without the lessor bearing operational responsibility for the flight in question), the lessor carrier is not responsible under the Regulation.
  • Harms v Vueling (C‑601/17): For the purpose of calculating the ticket price, the difference between the amount paid by the passenger and the amount received by the air carrier (corresponding to the commission collected by a person acting as an intermediary between those two parties) is included in the ticket price, unless that commission was set without the knowledge of the air carrier.
  • CS v České aerolinie (C‑502/18): For a journey with 2 connecting flights (in a single reservation) departing from an EU member state and to a final destination outside the EU via an airport outside the EU, a passenger who is delayed by 3 hours or more in reaching the final destination because of a delay in the second flight which is operated as a codeshare flight by a non-EU carrier may bring an action for compensation against the EU air carrier that performed the first flight.

European Commission's Interpretative Guidelines (note that this policy document is persuasive, but only the CJEU's interpretation of Regulation 261/2004 is authoritative and binding): http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-conte...XC0615%2801%29. National courts do not have to follow the European Commission's Interpretative Guidelines (but are obliged to follow the CJEU's case-law). For example, although the European Commission takes the view that 'missed connecting flights due to significant delays at security checks or passengers failing to respect the boarding time of their flight at their airport of transfer do not give entitlement to compensation' (para 4.4.7 of the Interpretative Guidelines), the Edinburgh Sheriff Court took a different view in Caldwell v easyJet. Sheriff T Welsh QC held that 'the facts proved can properly be characterised as denied boarding because of the operational inadequacies of Easyjet ground staff’s management of the Easyjet queues on 14 September 2014 and their failure to facilitate passage through security check, customs and passport control when asked, in circumstances, where it was obvious the passengers were in danger of missing their flight'.

When AY+ Flight Reason AY Offered AY explanation Won/Lost, How, Time

Summer13 no status (HKG-)HEL-LHR Prior to landing, LHR was closed as the fire services there were unavailable, so the flight was diverted and landed in LTN, where passengers were offloaded. However, the plane then flew from LTN to LHR with luggage in the hold, so passengers had to make their own way to LHR to retrieve their luggage (as AY provided no ground transport arrangements), eventually arriving at LHR and reclaiming baggage over 6 hours later than the scheduled arrival time. Requested 600€ plus transport and phone call costs incurred, but AY only agreed to reimburse transport and phone call costs AY claimed that 'the delay of this flight happened in extraordinary circumstances' Filed claim through ESCP in the County Court in England. AY contested the claim. The Court ruled against AY. In its judgment, the Court cited CJEU's decision in Eglitis and Wallentin-Hermann and rejected AY's defence as the flight diversion only caused a small initial delay. AY failed to discharge its burden of proof that it took all reasonable measures, as evidenced by proper contingency plans and steps to assist passengers at LTN. The delay in arrival at LHR was significantly lengthened by this factor. AY eventually paid the damages and costs awarded by the Court.

Summer13 no status (LHR-)HEL-HKG Technical fault Requested 600€ plus phone call costs incurred, but AY only agreed to reimburse phone call costs AY initially claimed that the technical fault was not foreseeable Filed claim through ESCP in the County Court in England. AY conceded the claim and eventually paid 600€ + phone call costs + court costs.

Fall15 AYG HEL-LHR-US HEL-LHR late, miss connect 200€ voucher, reroute 3,5 hours requested 600€, re-offered 400€ due to <4 hours -> accepted.

Nov15 AYS HEL-AMS Equip swap -> rerouting 3+ hours 400€ cash (as per EC261) or 550€ voucher offered in 2 days accepted

Jan16 AYP KUO-HEL ATR crew shortage, cancelled 50€ voucher Claimed EU 261 + taxi + hotel. NO -> paid taxi+hotel -> escalated to KRIL -> NoRRA offered 250€ voucher. Accepted

Jan16 AYS WAW-HEL "extraordinary crew shortage" 50€ voucher raised to "kuluttajaoikeusneuvoja". They state that crew shortage can usually not be declared an extraordinary -> escalated to KRIL -> AY offered 150€ -> declined -> AY offers 200€ voucher -> Accepted. 8 months to resolve the matter!

Jan16 AA Platinum = OWS BKK-HEL delay, no equip combined 300€ voucher (for 2 pers) extraordinary manufacturing fault of A350 declined offer -> escalated to KRIL -> AY offered 680€ voucher / 400 cash (for 2 pers) -> declined -> KRIL decision Feb18 = AY should compensate 300€ / pax

Q1/16 ?? JFK-HEL diverted back to JFK ?? technical fail, new equip escalated to KRIL -> 600€ offered, accepted

Feb16 ?? (LHR-)HEL-PEK cancelled, re-routed, arrived at PEK with 20 hr delay and, because of this, missed seeing dying grandfather by a few hours ?? 'extraordinary circumstances' due to pilot sickness, AY refused compensation -> filed small claim in England and won (see Guardian article)

Feb16 ?? HEL-PEK 6h delay 150€ voucher manufacture fail of A350 ??

Q1/16 AYG LHR-HEL A350 broke up 50€ voucher ??

?? OWE HKG-HEL 6h delay (A350) 600€*2pers ?? 2 weeks wait only for compensation

?? ?? BKK-HEL 13h delay 600€ cash / 800€ voucher ?? Just 2 days to get compensation, accepted 800 voucher

Q1/16 ?? BKK-HEL misconnect, 6h delay 400/€550€ misconnect raised the discance to apply 600 -> offered 600€ cash / 800 voucher

Mar16 AYP PVG-HEL cancel, reroute, 12h delay 600/800€ cancel&reroute 800€ voucher accepted

?? ?? ?? cancelled, long delay 600/800 technical fault accepted

Mar16 ?? HEL-HKG 8h delay 200€ voucher extraordinary fail A350 escalated to KRIL -> no info

Nov16 OWE (LHR-)HEL-TLL overnight delay nothing NoRRA pilot shortage Claim for EUR 400 filed in the England and Wales small claims track (not ESCP), AY admitted the whole of the claim a few days before the hearing (details)

???16 AYS PEK-HEL cancelled 100/200€ sick pilot, no overtime declined -> escalated to KRIL. No info yet.

Feb17 OWE BKK-HEL-LHR 2h delay in BKK, misconnect in HEL 600€ cash / 800€ voucher ?? Submitted compensation request, AY responded around one week later, accepted 800€ voucher (details)

Feb 2017 AYP KUO-HEL 06:00 cancelled ATR shortage HEL-LHR was missed, at LHR 6 h late €400 in cash or €550 AY voucher. Returning HEL-KUO 23:40 cancelled ATR shortage rerouted to JOE, bus to KUO, at KUO 2h 40min late €250 in cash or €350 AY voucher.

Apr 2017 OWE TLL-HEL-LHR AY118 delayed from TLL-HEL "crew rest" then later, "Try Norra, not us" €400 claimed. Rejected. MCOL in UK. Disputed by AY. County Court civil case, Oxford (10/11/17) Judgement : AY was the operating carrier under EC2111/2005, compensation and costs and expenses awarded.

Apr 2017 OWE TLL-HEL-LHR AY118 delayed from TLL-HEL "crew rest" then later, "Try Norra, not us", then "Delayed due to weather" €400 claimed. Rejected. 2 seperate agencies tried but gave up on the case. European Small Claims Procedure started at Den Haag sub-district court, AY didn't defend. Judgement (11/6/2019): compensation, costs and interest awarded.

Dec 2017 AY Gold AY HEL-KOK operated by Norra canceled due to crew shortage, delay due to reroute >3 hours EUR 250 claimed. Accepted by AY and an alternative of a EUR 350 voucher offered.

May 28 2017 AYP, AY 380 KUO-HEL was cancelled due to lack of planes (admitted by Finnair - Flightradar 24 gold is an invaluable tool for this sherlockholmesing: one KUO flight was cancelled in the previous evening as OH-LKM had broken in HAM and it should have taken care of the next morning KUO-HEL flight 7:30, OH-LKP arrived late from GVA 23:40 and took off to KUO well after midnight being there 01:33, OH-LKP should have flown KUO-HEL flight 6:15 but crew rest prevented this, OH-LKP flew KUO-HEL 7:30 flight instead). Missed LHR connection. Arrived at LHR 5 h 54 min later than planned. EUR 400 or voucher of EUR 600 was offered without any resent.

Dec 2018. HEL-LPA delayed 4 hours because routine maintenance took longer than expected. Pax AY Plat. Compensation paid within 24 hours (offered €400 cash or €550 voucher).

Some more cases from earlier history can be read HERE (unfortunately only in Finnish)

List of National Enforcement Bodies (NEBs) in EU/EEA Member States and Switzerland published by the European Commission (updated: April 2018): https://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites...ent_bodies.pdf

European Commission's guidelines with criteria for determining which NEB is competent for handling complaints (updated: April 2017): https://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites...procedures.pdf

If you decide to engage a claim agency/lawyer to pursue your claim, please first read the Information Notice published by the European Commission (updated: March 2017): http://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites/...gencies_en.pdf

To file a court claim, the CJEU stated in Rehder (see above) the criteria for determining which Member State's court has jurisdiction. If you booked a package combining flight(s) and accommodation, Advocate General Sharpston stated in her Opinion in Flight Refund v Lufthansa (Case C‑94/14) at paras 9 and 59-60 that a consumer claiming compensation under Regulation 261/2004 can file a court claim in the jurisdiction where he/she habitually resides, as an alternative to filing a court claim in the jurisdiction of the airport of departure or arrival.

You can file a claim at a court with jurisdiction to rule on your case either through the national procedure or through the European Small Claims Procedure (ESCP). The ESCP is a primarily written procedure and is available where the claimant and defendant are domiciled in different EU Member States (with the exception of Denmark) for claims up to EUR 2,000 (increasing to EUR 5,000 with effect from 14 July 2017).
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Finnair and EC 261 compensation

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Old Apr 24, 2019, 9:37 am
  #976  
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: HEL
Programs: AY Plat (OWE), SK EBG (*A Gold), KQ Plat (STE+), Accor Plat
Posts: 3,157
Originally Posted by BAEC
Can you still calim for ORC with Finnair+ ?
I have claimed for it and first they said that no ORC will be due to it being a CX issued ticket. After a debate they told me they would inquire CX whether to issue me the original routing credit or not.
lkrt is offline  
Old Apr 24, 2019, 12:21 pm
  #977  
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Programs: AY+ Platinum / FlyingBlue Gold
Posts: 835
Does EC261 actually apply to award flights? #daretoask
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Old Apr 24, 2019, 12:40 pm
  #978  
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 2,016
Originally Posted by Gnopps
Is there any soruce to this, that corporate fares indeed are excluded from EU261?

I know in the regulation it says that "This Regulation shall not apply to passengers travelling free of charge or at a reduced fare not available directly or indirectly to the public." which indeed sounds like corporate fares are excluded. Just wondering if there is anything official regarding this.
This is debatable. Anyone could set up a company which could then apply for access to corporate fares for the owner's flights, so standard corporate fares are in my opinion indirectly available to the public, but some companies have special fares not offered to other companies. I think that there is a similar issue if AY sends a targeted offer: upgrade to business class for 50 euros. Are you on a fare not directly available to the public if you decide to take the offer?
Originally Posted by EuroFlash
Does EC261 actually apply to award flights? #daretoask
Yes. See Article 3.3: "However, it shall apply to passengers having tickets issued under a frequent flyer programme or other commercial programme by an air carrier or tour operator."
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Old Apr 24, 2019, 12:41 pm
  #979  
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: C2
Programs: AY ex-Lumo, TK Elite, BT VIP, ITA Executive
Posts: 1,157
Originally Posted by EuroFlash
Does EC261 actually apply to award flights? #daretoask
Yes it does. It is specifically mentioned in the regulation - I guess so that no airline tries to find loopholes for such bookings.
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Old Apr 24, 2019, 12:41 pm
  #980  
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: HEL
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Posts: 8,752
Originally Posted by EuroFlash
Does EC261 actually apply to award flights? #daretoask
Yes. The one and only time AY has paid me EC261 compensation was for a delayed award flight.
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Old Apr 24, 2019, 12:42 pm
  #981  
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Programs: AY+ Platinum / FlyingBlue Gold
Posts: 835
Originally Posted by on22cz
Yes it does. It is specifically mentioned in the regulation - I guess so that no airline tries to find loopholes for such bookings.
Thank you, that's amazing. wanted to know just in case.
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Old Apr 26, 2019, 4:10 am
  #982  
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: HEL
Programs: AY Plat (OWE), SK EBG (*A Gold), KQ Plat (STE+), Accor Plat
Posts: 3,157
Originally Posted by lkrt


Thank you! I will try to find the original rule and use it in my claim. I’m not sure if AY thinks I’m claiming for the whole longhaul (600 EUR) when I’m actually claiming simply for the last leg that is under EU jurisdiction.
After reiterating their responsibilities, they still deny my claim and say that the liability is CX’s. It doesn’t make any sense as CX’s reroute would have got me at HEL according to the original schedule: it was Finnair’s flight that was delayed beyond three hours.

Next I will proceed to filing this with KRIL.
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Old May 21, 2019, 10:53 am
  #983  
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Quick question to the experts here: my gf was on a HEL-HKG that was delayed from a 14:45 arrival to 02:00. AY has offered the 600 Euros (or 800 euro transferable voucher in lieu) which is fine. But because they dumped her at HK airport at 2am she needed to incur a significant extra expense to get a taxi home, whereas she would have got a bus at 3pm. Does anyone have experience (or views) on whether this extra expense should be reimbursed under EU261, or is that sort of covered by the 600 Euros? She has submitted the claim and receipt, but no specific response from AY on this yet.

Last edited by christep; May 21, 2019 at 11:49 pm Reason: typo
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Old May 21, 2019, 6:43 pm
  #984  
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: London, UK
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This is a separate claim. The 600eur is for her time, not her out-of-pocket expenses.
armouredant is offline  
Old May 21, 2019, 11:48 pm
  #985  
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That's what I thought, thanks. Does anyone have any experience in trying to get such expenses reimbursed by Finnair?

And any experience on whether the 800 Euro voucher offered in lieu of the 600 Euro compensation is indeed fully transferrable and easy to use with no hassles?
christep is offline  
Old May 22, 2019, 12:14 am
  #986  
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: HEL
Programs: SPG LTP, hotels, OWE, STE+, *G, Octopus
Posts: 5,786
Originally Posted by christep

And any experience on whether the 800 Euro voucher offered in lieu of the 600 Euro compensation is indeed fully transferrable and easy to use with no hassles?
The voucher disclaimer says "The gift voucher is not personal". You can use it as you wish, however please note self-service won't work if you want a ticket that isn't sold in EUR.
remymartin is offline  
Old May 22, 2019, 2:36 am
  #987  
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: HEL
Programs: AY Platinum, TK Elite, BT VIP, AA, BA, SK, DL, NT, WB + hotels
Posts: 8,752
Originally Posted by christep
And any experience on whether the 800 Euro voucher offered in lieu of the 600 Euro compensation is indeed fully transferrable and easy to use with no hassles?
The voucher consists of an email with two numeric codes. Anyone who gets hold of these codes may use the voucher. Some people sell them eg on huuto.net (Finnish version of ebay).
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Old May 22, 2019, 3:25 am
  #988  
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: London, UK
Programs: BA GGL
Posts: 1,578
The extra 200eur as a Finnair voucher is only of value if you have a vector for spending it or selling it. Otherwise, take the cash.
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armouredant is offline  
Old May 22, 2019, 6:41 am
  #989  
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: try to stay home
Programs: AY, M&M, BAEC ...and don t care of status anymore
Posts: 2,042
Originally Posted by Gnopps
Is there any soruce to this, that corporate fares indeed are excluded from EU261?

I know in the regulation it says that "This Regulation shall not apply to passengers travelling free of charge or at a reduced fare not available directly or indirectly to the public." which indeed sounds like corporate fares are excluded. Just wondering if there is anything official regarding this.
It is. I was traveling for years on my own corporate fare (had a contract with AY), in case of overbooking they make me/my employees stay off board since they know that they don t have to pay compensation. Had huge debate with them and involved a specialized lawyer - law was on their side, (or but it this way I did not bring it to court since all signs tell me I will loose that case) - find another way to compensate with the rep.
Ed Size is offline  
Old May 22, 2019, 6:44 am
  #990  
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: try to stay home
Programs: AY, M&M, BAEC ...and don t care of status anymore
Posts: 2,042
Originally Posted by christep
That's what I thought, thanks. Does anyone have any experience in trying to get such expenses reimbursed by Finnair?

And any experience on whether the 800 Euro voucher offered in lieu of the 600 Euro compensation is indeed fully transferrable and easy to use with no hassles?
Flights must be booked on the AY website / with AY - on AY coded flights only. Had huge problems to pay with them since the all AY coded flights been 500€ more each then the flights with other codes involved. So if you know where you want to go, and if you know in which price region AY is offering the flights everything is good. If looking for offers you may face problems. Next time I will take the cash.
Ed Size is offline  


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