Business class – please share your views
 

I’m about to book long-haul business class flights with Finnair.

Can you share your experience?

I read some reviews and they are very mixed.
Flights are significantly cheaper than other airlines so I appreciate the standard might differ.

I hope to get the new flat seat on my way to Hong Kong (going further to Auckland in Cathay or New Zealand air). I called the UK reservations and helpline number to ask about that and the guy barely spoke English. That experience did not give me confidence in general :)

thanks

Better than BA Club World or SK C ;) I think the "new" seats are the same as OS have.

I'd say it's a solid product, but nothing fancy. I do fly them frequently to Asia and even the "dreaded" old-C on the A340 is quite OK for day flights.

AY robs you blind if your origin is in Finland but gives extremely good value for ex-EU (and especially E-Eur EU) origins.

Try to price out WAW-HEL...your destination...-HEL-LHR if you don't want to go back via WAW.

Thanks for the advice – I checked return to LHR on the way back - about gbp680 more (funny thing is it also makes the WAW-AKL leg more expensive…weird)

And luckily, also ex TLL or ex ARN helps. So we in Finland are not quite so doomed point wise and status wise. For clever business inineraries vs. cost we are doomed, however. About Club World, I would not be so pessimistic. Much more widespread infestation to start with.

Those Sales from Eastern EUrope seems to be over.:(

And TLL was good point to start AY trip about 10yrs ago. :)

Flew Finnair J in June/July 2013 and even though it was the old angled seats, I actually had enough sleep to be able to last until check-in time (6:30 am arrival in HEL, hotel check in was 3pm), and vice versa on the way back through HKG.
Service was prompt and enjoyable, but none of the smiles and over-the-top hospitality you find on the Asian carriers. Personally, I'm looking for an excuse to fly Finnair back to Helsinki, but the opportunity hasn't arisen yet.

Luckily not - BUD, WAW, PRG or a combination of them still works well (in the last 3 months I bought excellent NRT ex-PRG, ICN & NRT-SYD ex-BUD and collegue PEK & PVG ex-WAW. They are not sales as such, just the "normal" prices.

Actually until about 3 yrs ago, but yes, TLL just seem to only add to the price these days. Luckily ARN seem to come to the rescue ;)

Hi –

I fly intercontinental business class regularly on various airlines and like AY.

BA vs. AY head-to-head comparison below.

AY
- everything feels generally well-maintained and organized
- Finnair does not have First, and as business class is their best offering, they try hard to please you
- food is Finnair longhaul's weak spot (it's just cheap)
- I personally don't like their seat either (Zodiac Vantage) as it is tiny -- does not provide enough space for legs (to turn when sleeping etc.)
- generally the crew treats you well. However, there is a huge variation in the individual crew members ability to deliver good service (e.g. you have some of the best FAs in the industry whereas there are also bozos who don't care or are lost in what comes to interacting with a customer)

BA
- seat has plenty of space to sleep (I'm 6'1)
- crew hard to approach, but most often they get what you want
- the cabin interior is somewhat clinical and cold vs. the light colors of Finnair
- they spend more on the meals so the food is better on North Atlantic
- the IFE is probably better, but who cares? If you want to watch movie, bring your own iPad...

Don't forget that cozy dorm feeling on BA CW - a hundred like-minded strange people sharing your "bedroom" :-)

Thank you all for your replies! :)

I would say AY longhaul J is for the airline industry what Scandic Hotels are for the hotel industry. They offer you the very bare minimum that is needed and that they get away with to be able to call the product business class.

The seat is OK but far inferior to BA or the new AA seat. The reduced meal is OK but again inferior to their OW competition. Their amenity kit is practically nonexistent. The mid-flight snacks mostly consist of cheap potato crisps and a Fazer bag of candy, all opened and poured into minimal-size glasses. It's like someone told them, you guys need to offer a mid-flight snack since everybody else does, and then they sit down and ponder how to be able to do it without paying anything for it. The cabin crew is usually friendly but not used to offering pampering or anything luxurious and not very good at dealing with demanding passengers. That said, they do get you to your destination relatively reliably.

So if you just need to get reasonably comfortably from A to B, pick AY if the price is right (and if you want to avoid transfering at a big European hub). If you need pampering or want to experience something that hints towards luxury, pick another carrier.

Hey, get serious - BA CW superior to AY's C seat? Already the 8 abreast vs 4/5 abreast arrangement tells the story.

True, but I don't know which EU C product would be luxurious or pampering - LX? OS? (I don't know AF/KL's offering) :confused:

I agree with ffay005's view (as visible above) on the seat, as well as the other points.

I think that the Zodiac seat design does not use the floorspace very well. Yes, Finnair has only 4/5 abreast (vs. 8 on BA C), but the pitch is super dense. The result of this is that in lying position where your feet must fit into a tiny tunnel, with your toes reaching all the way till the next row passenger's knee level. Of course, when you are in upright position, there is plenty of space at the shoulder level, but I don't like sleeping in the Finnair seat. It may be a personal opinion, but I tend to sleep better in other seats.

With the BA, the floorspace is used more effectively: there is not much space at the shoulder level (because 8 abreast), but the pitch is like 2 meters. From passengers point, you have plenty of space for you feet as they are in open space (not height-restricted narrow tunnel as in Zodiac). You can sleep a lot better.

Does this make sense?

On the service, (low quality) food, processed snacks etc. ff005 is spot on.

E.g. if you want to serve ice cream, don't provide Vanilla/Strawberry Haagen-Daz. It's not a premium ice cream that would belong to a fine dining desert menu. If you really want to serve ice-cream (that is not a bad idea, BA serves it in First), I'd suggest going either with some small label artisan ice creams (BA CW) or having the ice-cream custom-made based on each individual passenger's request in the plane (toppings, hot fudge etc. like AA does in domestic premium cabin on their 737s).

May I once again promote my post in the sticky "Rudimentary Finnair Thread Index". In the second post you will find links to AY trip reports posted in flyertalk and airliners.net.

It's of course a matter of opinion, so there's no point in arguing. But I find the BA seat with its full recline and "ottoman" by far more comfortable both for sitting and for sleeping. It's more private (if you don't sit in a one-seater on AY), it's less cramped, it feels more like a real bed, albet a narrow one. And the tray table is usable – with the AY seat you need to sit fully upright in order to operate and use the tray table. Since I'm not dining in a church I end up using the side table for eating and even the FA's don't blink an eyelid when I ask them to put the tray there – they seem used to it.

The AA sundae is really something compared to those paper cups, isn't it! Would you like fudge or butterscotch, Sir? But I'm actually a little surprised AY offers something as "premium" as Häagen Dazs. Ingman would be more in line with the AY concept. Or a Valio/Nestle vaniljaeskimo ;)

What I do not find acceptable is that ice cream and a minimal cheese platter are the only dessert options (and at least on MIA flights they've omitted the appetizer, too). The paper cup ice creams sound more like mid-flight self-serve snacks to me.

I basically skip most of the Finnair LH business class food offering. Just eat a subset of the entree and starter.

Most often the entree, especially the beef when taking off from JFK, can only be eaten with care and quite selectively. Literally I think that the BoM of those pieces of meat must be in a range of $3-5 in retail prices, whereas on other airlines, it can be quite good. I'm also not fancied by the Finnair style of heating the meat with the sauce pre-loaded as a full assembly. I think that the sauce should be poured onto the beef at the point of service, i.e. in front of you. The sides stay better and the dining experience also feels much more premium that way. E.g. Lufthansa adheres to the assembly-at-delivery serving style in their business - why not Finnair?

The AY desserts are generally not worth eating. The chocolates are not premium. Ice cream we already discussed (although I think that it's by far the best Finnair C dessert). I always skip the dessert and ask for Fazer Blue chocolates from the Economy.

In simple terms, in my view most of the AY food does not belong to intercontinental business class. I wish they'd up their game a bit!

While we are bashing Finnair here, I must give credit to them for being able to keep the business running. It must be super hard to have a profitable enterprise with the low scale of business, with very limited home market demand, in a high-cost country. So kudos for the management!

As a passenger, I'd really like to see Finnair to improve their long-haul product. My fixes would be:

(1) Improve the interior
a) Get a good seat to the new A350. I'd go for narrow&long (i.e. BA CW) as opposed to the current Zodiac's wide&short. My point is that the long&narrow layout provides better legroom although limited with shoulder space. I value the better sleep in the bed-like seats
b) Some A330s' interior starts to be pretty worn out and needs overhaul. When they do it, hopefully they upgrade the old fleet's business class to the A350 standard

(2) Increase consistency in the service
Finnair has some of the best FAs of the industry who are definitely sophisticated and classy. Those exist especially among the older cadre, where you have some great talent. I'm not so sure about the younger folks. As step one, I'd somehow make the FAs feel like valued workforce by bring back some prestige. The poor attendants who have to serve masses in the boxy polyester suits: make them feel again like valued pros. Do something here. Step 2: Intensive training course to the business class FAs on how to serve demanding customers (i.e. do small talk). Some would need a crash course, and I expect that not all would pass the training

(3) Invest more in food
As discussed above

(4) Re-design the Finnair Plus program
As discussed earlier in another thread. Make it attractive to fly LH business. Introduce second tier to the program, with some benefits for passengers who pay full fare business in any case.

As a Finnair manager, would I implement any of those. Probably not. I cannot foresee how my earnings could increase. My view is that Finnair gets selected as it's the lowest cost J/C airline between several APAC/European cities. In many companies, the travel tool automatically requires you to take the cheapest ticket, and with the low-cost pricing strategy, you win the game if you are able to provide the cheapest business class travel. Therefore, typical Finnair buyers' purchasing criteria does not really include the quality of the service. Thus, any improvement would not trigger more purchasing of Finnair tickets, and make Finnair earn more revenue. With that dynamics, Finnair's business is quite stressed as there is an intrinsic cost pressure. The management has reasons to stay on the current track, provide the minimum acceptable product to get selected in the vendor lists of sourcing. However, changing the game would require fundamental restart of the business, which is not realistic to assume that any management would be able to do.

Quite interesting points you bring up, but this?

Make your Scandinavian pax embarassed by (small) talking to them? ;)

meh, I'm not Scandinavian and I don't want small talk with the FAs - sounds like an American sort of thing to me...

Oh, I can't believe we are doing one more AY-BA fight out! Well, I'm always game!:D
While I'm no fan of the Vantage UK Zodiac seat, I cannot recall having flown a worse business class than BA dormitory class, also know as club world. Tiniest seat ever, where you need to have contorsionist's skills just to get into the seat. The service is done without ever looking you in the face, thus allowing the FAs to be even snarkier than they are required by BA to be. All flight long you will be listening to motorized sliders going up and down, your bed will be rocked by the sleep-kicker next door and conversations from the other end of the dorm will be carried across to you, as you are sitting backwards facing strangers.



I do agree on the points how to improve AY though.

The A350 is getting the cirrus (or a cirrus like seat), just scan here and you will find. I believe that will be great.

I don't disagree on introducing a super-platinum level, but they are already struggling at giving the plats anything extra from the golds, so I can't really see it coming.
What perks are you suggesting they give to the super-plats?

About the chit-chat - Yes, most locals might not like it, but every passenger is unique a professional service staffer could easily determine who is who and adapt. I am nordic, but still appreciate purser coming over and talk to me.
CX used to be good at this, but lately they have not met my expectations. I've been pleasantly surprised on KA though. Even CA does it better even when their english skills are limited.

I disagree on the old AY staffers being better. Yes, there are some gems, but equally some rotten eggs in this category. Some senior pursers are just not fit for service - I've seen pursers delay the entire cabin service because they themselves got stuck on a single task (like fixing the crashed IFE). Chief of cabin is not (should not be) just a title - it is a leadership role. Pursers should actively lead the FAs, but many abstain from this duty.
I have found the younger Cantonese FAs very pleasant and service minded.

I agree that they should work hard on consistency and what the Finnair service really is supposed to be.

Well, they could always take a page or two from the competitors' book. Free limo* drive to/from metro-Helsinki <-> airport could be one. Free parking at the airport. Meet and greet could be another, though with HEL being such a smallish and very effective airport, not much use of that. Limo* to/from apron stand departures/arrivals. Open doors policy at HEL lounges. X number of free short haul tickets. And these are just flight-related ones. Opera/theater/concert tickets, etc - normal hospitality you'd provide to your top customers.

* any nice car really, not limo in a literal sense - BMW 5-series, MB 200-series, Audi 6-series, etc

Those are perks that would cost AY some serious money. I doubt they could make break even on those - because those with unlimited travel budgets are probably not very AY loyal anyway. And the open doors lounge would be counter-intuitive if it is loyalty we are talking about. But sure, they are nice perks.

I could see the "wildcard" to release upgrade and award-space for yourself and entourage as something they could do.
And the 48H+ seat guarantee extended to longhaul J is another.

But then again, I think those would fit into regular plat level...

Enhancing reg Platinum would be easy: just bring additional reward availability, so that Platinums could book upgrades/reward flights at last minute rather than compete with other Finnair Plus tiers on availability of rewards.

For the new Tier, "Platinum Premium" (let's say, 300,000 points), I'd bring one additional benefit: A once/twice per membership year n persons booked into revenue classes, rather than award classes. E.g. take your family on vacation.

The second benefit (booking awards from revenue ticket classes) kind of works today, but requires negotiation with Finnair Plus. It's kind of hassle that I'd prefer not to have.

One enhancement I'd like to see that doesn't cost additional money is offering "early meal option" to J pax on short red-eye flights, such as AY 6, 21, etc.

I'm afraid that it would just provide AY an excuse to have even crappier dinner than what it is now. They'd just use it as a cost-saving measure...

Think about what happened after the introduction of the breakfast option on AY6: if you actually want a proper breakfast served, you cannot have it anymore. And about the spec-your-breakfast coupon system: the implementation feels cumbersome. I don't know what's wrong with it at AY, but with the Sleeper Service, BA has managed to keep the premium touch in it whereas at AY, the staff just throws the card on your table. I wish they'd at minimum borrow me a pen to fill it..

A much better idea would be to provide a dining option at the lounge area. I mean, a dinner that would replace the omboard dining, food-food, not snacks. I'm quite happy with the BA Sleeper Service flights where they have properly put it into practice.

Agree on the cost-saving approach being a Finnair speciality. Enhancements that has a savings potential usually gets implemented in favour of bean counters, not for loyalty.

Yes, good suggestions otherwise for plat and a new plat+. Kind of similar to perks of BAEC GGL. I like perks that has to do with flying, so upgrades and awards would be key to me.

They do (or did?) offer dinner at the lounge for all the late night asian flights, ie SIN, HKG. Buffé style though, so it was never anything I used.

BA does it well for their Golds (!) - you get award availability in V (?) class, which is revenue class - used it a number of times. Jokers seem to be popular among GGLs.

A350s will be equipped with the Zodiac Cirrus, which is e.g. the current CX and the new AA and AF J seat. It is a definitive improvement and a competitive offering.

I had my first encounter with this seat the other day when I got seated in First on a regional KA A330. It is a nice seat and the herringbone works well on daytime flight ( I still think it will be not so good on redeye). The 1-2-1 felt a bit crowded on A330 but I guess the width of A350 will help.
The seat is much better than the vantage AFAIC tell from the short ride.

I have experienced this seat on CX's 777 and A330 -- I agree that there is a notable difference space-wise. So much nicer on the 777. Then the 777 overall is such a spacious feeling plane with its smart overhead lockers etc. I guess the A350 will be something similar.

For sleeping I quite like BA's CW window seat especially on the upper deck of a 747. I don't like seats which are very exposed to the aisle -- in the Cirrus you do get that feeling. But still it is a big improvement over the current Vantage: more spacious and has an ottoman.

Well, if others think that providing additional reward availability for the Platinums would be a good idea, I'd suggest approaching AY directly. I believe that they are in the process of redesigning the mileage program right now.

Please let them also know that they should get rid of the one-tier structure, and improve benefits for the passengers who spend the most (ie fly full-fare business class all the time).

My loyalty to AY was fundamentally questioned last August, when I tried to book reward C tickets for my family Thailand vacation for Christmas (4 months ahead). Even after spending ~60,000-100,000 Euros on tickets for AY that year, and affecting the purchasing decisions of at least the same spend on other passengers traveling with me, AY said no availability. At that moment I felt that Finnair did not value the business with me. For once I was interested in a benefit, they said no availability. It got resolved in the end, but let me note that at BA that stupid&unnecessary episode would not have happened because of the possibility to book rewards from revenue classes on higher tiers (GGL etc).

All the best,
JF

Thanks JustFlyer for several good posts and welcome to the AY forum, by the way!

Maybe stirring up some bad feelings among fellows with lower AY tiers, but I'd like to ask SPBanker if you perhaps could approach AY with a friendly tip that AY platinums would like AY to offer something more just for their highest tier members?

The increased upgrade availability is an excellent idea, perhaps tied to the "Family award" perk we already have (which is pretty much the only thing that separates plat from gold).
JustFlyer's example is a situation I also have experienced, and I guess others too? It is great that they sometimes "fix availability" for some after haggeling, but why not formalise this?
Several AY plats (current, former or becomming) also have experience with BAEC and easy of upgrades and the jokers, so here are probably easy to find some good examples.


Secondly, after the the two joint ventures came in place, it has been apparent that partner upgrades is something that could be very useful. Probably much more difficult for AY to change quickly, but nevertheless something I think many of us would appreciate.






IMHO they "owe us one" (tounge in cheek) after the announcement
followed by the fine print
ie the improvement was only for Golds...

I just flew HEL-BKK, so here're my latest impressions:

Seat - well, I still like it, but must agree with the above, if you want to sleep well, you need to get one of those with the open side to the aisle. It's not comfy in the "foot-tunnel" For daylight flights, though it's excellent. On the same day I flew TK on their A340 (?) in the front - much more airy, much less private. For a day-flight AY wins. For a night flight - I don't know.

Food - it was a lovely dinner, tasty food. Ice-cream brand - do I really care? :)

Crew - this was the "matron crew" (excuse my language), doing their stuff efficiently. You won't see them picking up the toddler in 1A and going all crazy about her (as the TK crew did :))

IFE - underwhelming, bring your own

Amenity - oh my, oh my. Pure basics. I'm not really into this amenity thing and the Marimekko bag surely beats the cardboard one (the womanfolk might like it) but this is really the bare minimum.

Flight time - 9hrs to BKK instead of 12-15-18 via another hub? Nirvana

So in my opinion it's a solid product with room for improvement, but not bad at all*




*and compared to sitting in the back of the bus...

I am asking this from the perspective of a frequent BA flyer who has never travelled AY.

We want to go to Dubai in the New Year, so have just started to looking at prices in Business on HEL-DXB-HEL (have enough Avios to position LHR-HEL-LHR cheaply). For those who don't know, the BA scheme is changing soon - we need to book before April 28th to get keener redemption and points/miles earning rates.

The AY pricing for e.g. Jan 23rd - Jan 31st on AY963 / AY964 is literally about 1/2 that of other carriers like BA, but ITA Matrix says this route is operated by an A321. Nothing wrong with that in itself, as the BA LCY-JFK service amply demonstrates, but when I look at the seat maps for these services it looks just as crowded as BA's Club Europe.

Does anyone have experience of the Business seats on this route ? Are they lie-flat ? My partner and I are 5'8 and 5'6 respectively (1.73m and 1.68m) so having our feet in a "tunnel" wouldn't be too problematic, but we do want to be able to sleep for a while on board..

Kiitos jo etukäteen :)

Just did this last week...

A32B is exactly same plane/configuration Finnair uses in Europe short haul. Plane is all economy and business class separated with curtain. Seat are standard short haul seats with really limited recline. Middle seat is blocked like in BA, but no tray/table on top of the seat.

I would not pay anything extra (other than Finnair - points) on top of economy ticket . Have you checked QR offers? They do offer DXB from most of European cities sub 1000€ tickets at the moment on Dreamliner via DOH.

Confirmed my suspicions, thanks !

I will have a look at QR :)

Thanks all for contributing to this thread.

I was considering a J-cabin flight to Asia on AY with a 3-hour 32B "short" haul in Europe and a long haul on the 343 configured with the old seats, which I learned don't go horizontal.

I now understand why it's priced lower than the competition -- and no thanks! Off to evaluate QR vs. BA I go...

I think this is the first time I've read someone thinking that BA spends MORE on their J meals than AY?

BA J food has been consistently going down over the past years, and nowadays can be downright useless (afternoon tea, TATL breakfasts etc...).

Finnair still gives you a decent meal, pretty much any time of the day. With BA, you need to know when to fly if you want to have anything edible, and even then it is heated-on-plate-under-foil type of grub.

Seat is a matter of opinion, I don't like Finnairs Zodiac, too cramped on the feet, but I absolutely hate BA CW unless I get a select window seat where I don't have to be an acrobat to jump to the aisle (62/64AK etc).

CW on an aisle seat on the flying dorm (777) is downright awful, let alone if you get the middle seat next to a stranger...

Wife really liked the new Marimekko amenity bag, bare minimums content but nice bag compared to the old cartboard disaster.

All things being equal I rate AY C over BA CW.

Of course all things are never equal - flight times, flight length, price being a few "minor" things. I don't know where hillrider would start his/her trip - if outside the main Eur hubs (LHR, FRA, AMS), the total travel time might even be shorter via HEL (e.g flying MAN-HEL-Asia is better than MAN-LHR-Asia)

QR C is a better overall product, but going to HKG and points North it's longer via DOH.