Using credit card in Europe after the elimination of signatures
#16
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I just bought a laptop from Costco yesterday above 1,000 with Costco visa, no signature required at all. But I have to sign at Low's this afternoon. I think the process is still rolling out. I never bought the signature against fraud, I always draw a circle on the pad. LOL I guess it is easy to detect fraud if the transaction has a real signature of my name!
When you bought the laptop from Costco, just exactly what did you do with your card? It certainly isn't clear to me. You took out your card and then....................? Specifically, physically, what did you then do with your card?
I live in Canada where we have true Chip and PIN cards like the rest of the world except for the USA. When using my card in Canada or in Europe, I either put the card in a slot in the merchants card reader or swipe it down the side for the magnetic strip to be read. THEN I enter my PIN number into the machine and the charge gets approved.
There are some US issued cards that are true Chip and PIN but most are CHIP and Signature. You need to understand the difference. Now what you appear to be saying is that signatures are being done away with as a means of verification. OK, what is the signature being replaced with?
I'm guessing you are just 'tapping' the card on the merchants card reader. We do that here in Canada for purchases up to $100 but must enter a PIN for all purchases over $100. If you are just tapping your card for a $1000 laptop purchase, that to me is yet another failing on the part of US card issuers. If you drop your card on the ground and I pick it up, can I just 'tap' it and buy myself a $1000 computer charged to your card? I certainly wouldn't want a card that would allow that to happen.
I'm wondering about the comment, "I never bought the signature against fraud, I always draw a circle on the pad". It sounds to me like your card issuer offers you a guarantee against fraud if you pay for it and sign for all purchases, in which case it implies that if you didn't, YOU are liable for any fraud, not the card issuer. Do you really understand what you are liable for or not with your card?
Last edited by dulciusexasperis; Jun 6, 2018 at 10:37 am
#17
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The problem here ICEROCK is like many people, you assume people understand what you are saying because they have a card the same as your own. That's simply not the case.
When you bought the laptop from Costco, just exactly what did you do with your card? It certainly isn't clear to me. You took out your card and then....................? Specifically, physically, what did you then do with your card?
I live in Canada where we have true Chip and PIN cards like the rest of the world except for the USA. When using my card in Canada or in Europe, I either put the card in a slot in the merchants card reader or swipe it down the side for the magnetic strip to be read. THEN I enter my PIN number into the machine and the charge gets approved.
There are some US issued cards that are true Chip and PIN but most are CHIP and Signature. You need to understand the difference. Now what you appear to be saying is that signatures are being done away with as a means of verification. OK, what is the signature being replaced with?
I'm guessing you are just 'tapping' the card on the merchants card reader. We do that here in Canada for purchases up to $100 but must enter a PIN for all purchases over $100. If you are just tapping your card for a $1000 laptop purchase, that to me is yet another failing on the part of US card issuers. If you drop your card on the ground and I pick it up, can I just 'tap' it and buy myself a $1000 computer charged to your card? I certainly wouldn't want a card that would allow that to happen.
I'm wondering about the comment, "I never bought the signature against fraud, I always draw a circle on the pad". It sounds to me like your card issuer offers you a guarantee against fraud if you pay for it and sign for all purchases, in which case it implies that if you didn't, YOU are liable for any fraud, not the card issuer. Do you really understand what you are liable for or not with your card?
When you bought the laptop from Costco, just exactly what did you do with your card? It certainly isn't clear to me. You took out your card and then....................? Specifically, physically, what did you then do with your card?
I live in Canada where we have true Chip and PIN cards like the rest of the world except for the USA. When using my card in Canada or in Europe, I either put the card in a slot in the merchants card reader or swipe it down the side for the magnetic strip to be read. THEN I enter my PIN number into the machine and the charge gets approved.
There are some US issued cards that are true Chip and PIN but most are CHIP and Signature. You need to understand the difference. Now what you appear to be saying is that signatures are being done away with as a means of verification. OK, what is the signature being replaced with?
I'm guessing you are just 'tapping' the card on the merchants card reader. We do that here in Canada for purchases up to $100 but must enter a PIN for all purchases over $100. If you are just tapping your card for a $1000 laptop purchase, that to me is yet another failing on the part of US card issuers. If you drop your card on the ground and I pick it up, can I just 'tap' it and buy myself a $1000 computer charged to your card? I certainly wouldn't want a card that would allow that to happen.
I'm wondering about the comment, "I never bought the signature against fraud, I always draw a circle on the pad". It sounds to me like your card issuer offers you a guarantee against fraud if you pay for it and sign for all purchases, in which case it implies that if you didn't, YOU are liable for any fraud, not the card issuer. Do you really understand what you are liable for or not with your card?
Last edited by ICEROCK; Jun 6, 2018 at 4:52 pm
#18
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#19
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No, insert your card, after about a second, your transaction was approved. Never heard of tapping in US. US card issuers are eliminating the signature requirement, and major retailers are following through. Signature is not a really an effective or useful way to prevent fraud, that is why US card issuers are abandoning this ridiculous and ineffective practice. Tons of signature pad in US have touch issues, you write on that pad is nothing like your real signature anyway. LOL A pin is a much secure method than the signature.
#20
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So what you are telling me if I understand it, is that anyone can insert your card into the card reader and it will approve the transaction? That means, if you drop your card and I pick it up, I get a free shopping spree until you notice you don't have it and get the card issuer to cancel that card.
To be fair, the signature was never a safeguard anyway, so it's no less safe than before. I could sign anyone's name, no one ever verified anything. Ultimately, the US needs to move to the chip & pin system.
#21
Join Date: Jul 2009
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Some vendors in the US do check ID with name on the credit card. I've had this happen to me within the past two months. It seems to happen more in touristy areas or shopping centers? That's just a guess based on personal experience (and though I've been a customer at my Costco since it opened in 2006, I do not have a photo on my Costco visa card, so there is still ONE cashier who asks me for my ID every time....)
#22
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So what you are telling me if I understand it, is that anyone can insert your card into the card reader and it will approve the transaction? That means, if you drop your card and I pick it up, I get a free shopping spree until you notice you don't have it and get the card issuer to cancel that card.
#23
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Some vendors in the US do check ID with name on the credit card. I've had this happen to me within the past two months. It seems to happen more in touristy areas or shopping centers? That's just a guess based on personal experience (and though I've been a customer at my Costco since it opened in 2006, I do not have a photo on my Costco visa card, so there is still ONE cashier who asks me for my ID every time....)
#24
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By the way, I'm still signing often in the US too. While the cards may have eliminated the requirement, I suspect individual merchants may still have their own rules, or terminals that are programmed to print a signature slip. I don't have to sign in my grocery store now, but I do at my dry cleaner and restaurants (which may just be a mechanism for reminding people of the tip).
How widely is apple pay accepted in Europe? Is it really that easy with the handheld readers most restaurants and cafes use?
I haven't used apple pay yet, but would learn it and consider using it for my next trip to Europe in July if this is true. Sorry if these are rookie questions, I've been reluctant to try the mobile pay apps thus far.
I haven't used apple pay yet, but would learn it and consider using it for my next trip to Europe in July if this is true. Sorry if these are rookie questions, I've been reluctant to try the mobile pay apps thus far.
Honestly, I almost feel as though NFC is wasted on the US and that we shouldn't have gotten Apple Pay, etc. anywhere near first. Then again, most merchants would have purchased chip-enabled terminals without the hardware at all if Apple wasn't there to push things along.
Which won't happen unless it's federally mandated. (Long story, but it would actually be a significant hassle for possibly little reward. Especially since a lot of merchants have taken their cue from the banks and installed equipment incapable of accepting PINs.)
#25
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Honestly, the US should have just jumped over the chips and straight to NFC (+pin?)
#26
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Apple slowed things down in the US. Back in 2012 they were the last to the NFC game. While Samsung and Google have been pushing this one, Apple has dragged its feet on this.
Honestly, the US should have just jumped over the chips and straight to NFC (+pin?)
Honestly, the US should have just jumped over the chips and straight to NFC (+pin?)
Also, customers aren't really going to start demanding it in large numbers for a while due to our general extreme distrust of banking technology. (I suspect that's what killed contactless cards here, since they were around back in 2007-2010 or so; the only reason NFC wasn't immediately dismissed this time, IMO, is because authentication is basically mandatory with the phone-based systems.) The question then becomes: how long will the banks wait before concluding that NFC is a success or a failure?
On that note, I'm honestly surprised that the US isn't a predominantly cash-based country like Japan or Germany, though I guess banks did condition us to use cards over a span of decades.
#27
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Also, customers aren't really going to start demanding it in large numbers for a while due to our general extreme distrust of banking technology. (I suspect that's what killed contactless cards here, since they were around back in 2007-2010 or so; the only reason NFC wasn't immediately dismissed this time, IMO, is because authentication is basically mandatory with the phone-based systems.) The question then becomes: how long will the banks wait before concluding that NFC is a success or a failure?
On that note, I'm honestly surprised that the US isn't a predominantly cash-based country like Japan or Germany, though I guess banks did condition us to use cards over a span of decades.[/QUOTE]
What? And give up on the possibility of constantly living in debt?
#28
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In any event, if people were less resistant to the idea of mobile wallets, you'd see Samsung Pay (which works with almost all terminals, not just the NFC enabled ones) get a lot more use than the others. Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be getting used much more than the others from what I can tell.
That would probably be a good thing society-wise, but that's a different topic for a different thread.
#29
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The bottom line remains simple. The USA is behind the rest of the world when it comes to card technology. Chip and PIN is superior to anything else at the moment in terms of security and yet the majority of US banks continue to refuse to make it available.
From my perspective, anyone who wants to use a card from a US bank, should only use one that is true Chip and PIN. This applies to BOTH debit and credit cards. Vote with your feet and the banks will have to change their answer.
It is fine to say that if there is a fraudulent transaction, you are not liable, the bank or the merchant is, so you have nothing to lose and increased security has little value to you individually. But that is a short sighted view. When you see fraudulent transactions appear on your card statements, that's when you will discover what it can really mean in terms of time and hassle to get it corrected.
Again from my perspective, it seems like simple common sense to want a Chip and PIN card for the increased security it provides. When reading some comments, all I can see is an apparent acceptance of 'this is how it is' without questioning why it is as it is when the rest of the world has more secure cards than you do. Why would you settle for an inferior product?
From my perspective, anyone who wants to use a card from a US bank, should only use one that is true Chip and PIN. This applies to BOTH debit and credit cards. Vote with your feet and the banks will have to change their answer.
It is fine to say that if there is a fraudulent transaction, you are not liable, the bank or the merchant is, so you have nothing to lose and increased security has little value to you individually. But that is a short sighted view. When you see fraudulent transactions appear on your card statements, that's when you will discover what it can really mean in terms of time and hassle to get it corrected.
Again from my perspective, it seems like simple common sense to want a Chip and PIN card for the increased security it provides. When reading some comments, all I can see is an apparent acceptance of 'this is how it is' without questioning why it is as it is when the rest of the world has more secure cards than you do. Why would you settle for an inferior product?
#30
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Also, biometric cards are supposedly better security-wise, but the jury's out on those.
Sure, these issues might diminish if more people used such cards. But when they're only available from a few semi-obscure credit unions, people aren't going to bother going through the trouble unless they absolutely felt like they needed to. And frankly, chip and signature works fine overseas for the most part, even if you have your transactions scrutinized more than usual. For the rest (mostly unattended terminals that don't work with signature-only cards), there are cards like the ones Barclays offers that do have PINs for that purpose.
It is fine to say that if there is a fraudulent transaction, you are not liable, the bank or the merchant is, so you have nothing to lose and increased security has little value to you individually. But that is a short sighted view. When you see fraudulent transactions appear on your card statements, that's when you will discover what it can really mean in terms of time and hassle to get it corrected.
Would I have preferred to not have made that call in the first place? Sure. It's not a huge time sink like you claim, though, except perhaps across the entire US population.
Again from my perspective, it seems like simple common sense to want a Chip and PIN card for the increased security it provides. When reading some comments, all I can see is an apparent acceptance of 'this is how it is' without questioning why it is as it is when the rest of the world has more secure cards than you do. Why would you settle for an inferior product?
Adopting PIN also has implications for certain transactions. For instance, Americans generally seem to dislike pay at the table as done in other countries; restaurants would either need to wholesale switch to a pay at the front model (which is currently seen as something lower-end restaurants do) or adopt stuff like this (which is a massive investment that only large chains seem to be willing to do).
Considering the above, it's no surprise that we're doing the minimum required to a) fix a large proportion of the fraud problem (which is counterfeit cards, not lost or stolen cards) and b) provide a foundation to jump to what's becoming the new standard.