Don't get bogged down in the this argument. This person's post history shows a certain penchant for engaging in laborious, senseless debates.

Regardless of various personal preferences and minor issues, AMS is regarded as the standard setter for airport signage in Europe. Any airport has its problems and in general, Europe has poor check-in areas compared to North America. If you are not used to trains, then most European train stations will be hard to negotiate and the airport ones even worse if they are for more than just local service (like AMS, FRA, CDG, etc.).

Credit cards issues from public transport companies is an issue in Europe, regardless of where you are from and again AMS is better than most in that regard. Try buying petrol in Basel on a Friday night without a Swiss card or try using a V-pay card in the US to get money.

It may be the standard in Europe, but as previous posters have mentioned, it is not the standard abroad. There is a very extensive and informative discussion on this topic and the technology involved here:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/credi...signature.html

I agree with previous posters, however, that a world-class international airport such as AMS should have machines that are compatible with payment systems widely used by visitors in other countries.

@:-)

They do. It is called an ATM machine and I bet all of your card work in it.

Since my V-pay card doesn't work in ANY US airport, any US ATM or ANY US establishment for that matter, I guess none of them are world class by your standards?

Is it a problem, yes. Does it have absolutely anything to do with the airport, no. ABN in AMS even offers EUR and USD ATM machines. LUX offers EUR and GBP [I think they still do at least]. How many US airports have EUR ATM's? That's what I thought.

This genuinely surprises me. AMS has lots of signage but I would question the usefulness of some of it. Are current signologists not leaning towards the "less is more" concept?

I am from a country where we are quite familiar with trains.

I think the interoperability of international payment systems is a broader debate. I think it is becoming increasingly apparent that such systems are not as international as we would like them to be.

I am describing my experience and not being critical for no reason. As most Flyertalkers, we give our own opinions and describe our own experiences here - that's what this board is all about.

But they do take coins, just not all the machines.

Out of interest, and with the caveat that this is not AMS fault (AMS doesn't even know where there shuttle buses leave from)

But can anyone tell me what this means? As written on the shuttle bus timetable for the Schiphol Crown Plaza.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.n...ad8fee4269b4ed

It's the type of ambiguous Dutchism that I found all over the airport. There's a big platter of bitterballen for the FTer that can explain to me how a shuttle bus can be both FREE and at the same time 7,50€ return.

While this is indeed not an example of clarity, the way I would read it is that the bus is free of charge outbound from the airport but they do charge €7.50 for the inbound journey to the airport.

Seriously? An international hotel chain would offer a shuttle bus service which is free in only one direction? A bit like the Severn Bridge?

It's not Hotel California, is it? ;)

This is not unknown. Hilton Dublin airport does that, for instance.

I just had Euro bills, which the local Dutch passengers told me the machines (next to baggage claims) don't take.

NS's refusal to take anything but debit cards is rather irritating. I do understand that the Netherlands has traditionally had its own home-grown EFTPOS system, and that this is a lot cheaper to the retailer, but really, even with a supplement, you'd think that they'd be able to at least take foreign chip & PIN credit cards.

I guess, though, that they now want to push the OV-Chipkaart. Even that's not the easiest to get hold of and load for visitors (although a lot easier than the Danish Rejsekort, from recent experience...)

AFAIK there is a difference between debit cards and credit cards. Certainly for the user there is. If you buy tickets from an agent, either at Schiphol or somewhere else, you can pay with almost any kind of card. I say this from what I have seen rather than done myself.
The OV-Chipkaart has replaced all paper tickets. I believe you can buy them at news agents, tobacco shops and some hotels. There is a one-time €7.50 charge and they are valid for 4-5 years.

As an early adopter, I must say that it is a great idea. I have automatic loading via my bank account and simply check in wherever I am and checkout wherever I am going, which means never having to stand in line, never having to stand at an automat and never being short of cash to buy a ticket.

This is not a "ambiguous Dutchism", but a use of a British expression, rather than an American one. Britons call it a "return ticket", while Americans say "roundtrip ticket." Far more British people come here than Americans (plus we get British TV from our American cable company), so Dutch people (generally speaking) are more familiar with British English than American English.

Perhaps that's why some of you also complained about the signs in the terminal building.

Correct - but you do have to pay a supplement to use a ticket counter. At smaller stations, it's not always obvious, as the counter can be part of a nearby newsagent!

Oh, I really like smartcard ticketing - I must have about 10 different types in my travel wallet! But the top-up is through the iDEAL network, which is not accessible to foreigners.

I do get the reasons why it's all set up like this - but it does make life slightly more difficult for visitors.

Actually, I'd say the reverse - this is American usage. In British usage, a "return ticket" means both outbound and inbound. In American usage, it's the inbound journey only. This sign seems to imply the latter.

A return ticket is a ticket that takes you there and back.

It's not a ticket that only covers the return part of a round trip.

Advertising a free shuttle with a "return ticket" costing 7.50 Euro is incorrect use of (British) English. A return ticket means "there and back", not just "back".

As only part of the sign is visible (for example, explaining what the asteriks mean is missing), perhaps there is more to it. In fact, from the Schiphol site, the bus is free for hotel guests (not displayed in the image above) so what may have been left out is: free for hotel guests, €7.50 for everyone else.

That's true. Perhaps a good reason to buy an OV-Chipkaart?

Are you sure about that? When I buy something on the Internet with IDEAL, I always have to login and go through a bit of a process to complete it. However, with banks it is possible to empower other parties to automatically withdraw money from your account (an ISP, telephone company, etc.).

But, having said all that, yes, I'm pretty sure you need to have a Dutch bank account to use automatic loading.

It's a big percentage surcharge for tickets to nearby places, such as Amsterdam CS. In addition, there's the annoyance of waiting in line and missing trains as you wait. And the agents aren't friendly to foreigners or efficient IME. They're not happy answering basic questions such as whether one saves money by purchasing a RT train ticket rather than two one ways for the trip.

The surcharge is a fixed amount, it is not a "percentage surcharge." In fact, it is 50 cents for domestic tickets. I would guess that some foreign credit cards or debit cards might charge even more than that assuming they could be used.

:rolleyes: That's exactly why MSPeconomist says that it is a "big percentage surcharge for tickets to nearby places", because 0,50€ on a 4€ ticket (for instance) is a pretty steep penalty - but not so much if your ticket costs 35€.

Fair enough.

However, as I've said before: if your key doesn't fit the lock, why not get the key fixed instead of complaining about the lock?

Sure, but it seems to me that it is fair comment to point out the parochial nature of systems that work pretty well for locals but not so well for foreigners, even if one understands why it is so and even if examples of parochialism exist in abundance elsewhere too.

I see it a bit differently: if something is improved, why stick with the older version? The reason the cards were changed here was not to exclude foreigners, but to improve a system (any idea how long it's been around? Decades, I would guess.) that was increasingly breaking down. I can still remember going to the supermarket to pay with my magnetic debit card and the cashier would have to wipe it with cloth several times to get it to work.

The point is not that these are two similar systems and one group has chosen for system A and the other for system B, but that one system supersedes the other.

This, however, is about more than just the (US-style) magnetic strip cards - certainly, the rest of Europe has had Chip & PIN credit cards for years, now. It was only relatively recently that NS machines accepted foreign Maestro cards at all, and there's only a handful in the country that accept anything other than Maestro or V-Pay (both of which have fairly limited uptake outside the low countries).

The OV-Chipkaart system is a good one, but the cards need to be bought in person, and loading them still causes problems for non-Dutch residents, who can't load them up online, or with an ongoing agreement.

While it may be expensive relative to the price of a ticket, paying the 50 cents to have an agent sell you a ticket shouldn't really be a hardship for anyone travelling here from far away. Yes, it is certainly less convenient than an OV-Chipkaart, but I think it is a reasonable solution.While this is all true, I think the greatest benefit of the card is mostly to local users - that is, people who will use it a lot. But, that there is so little thought given to foreigners is a valid point. The NS does many things very well, but others (such as a family Voordeelurenkaart, for example) not so good, unfortunately.

Let me throw this in here. I also have an interest in travel and whilst our company does not operate trains, we will pick you up from any airport in Colombia and deliver you to the city centre.

We will invoice you in either COP, USD, EUR, CHF or GBP. In countries where bank transfers are popular such as Germany and Austria (half of our customers) we will gladly receive your money into a local bank account. For all other countries, I promise you, we will take MC and Visa cards of all flavours, Amex, JCB and Discovery.

The answer to your question being, that it never makes sense to make it hard for people to give you their hard earned money. Call us slutty, but we want as many people's keys as possible to fit our lock. We want it to be a simple process for people to throw their money our way.

True. But the FRA machine will only take 5's or 10's, so having bills is not always going to work for the machines but you can still buy from attendant at the desk (in AMS or FRA).

The machines can only give change in coins. Paying a 5 EUR ticket with a 50 EUR bill would feel like winning at a slot machine and I'm sure machines that accepted large bills would be empty pretty soon.

Those are some big numbers of people who don't use PIN's. But the numbers are vastly larger when we are talking about dollars in fraud thanks to not using PIN's. The banks and vendors in Europe are not willing to open themselves up to that much fraud. So PIN's are and will remain mandatory in most places you visit here. That's simply not going to change. American's have been complaining about the ticket machines at Schiphol for over a decade now and not much has changed. Personally I just got a bank acct here and a local bank card so no worries for me. But casual visitors will have to allow for a few extra minutes in line to reach a human where you can use your PIN-less cards or Euro notes. And NS staffs an information desk pretty much full time where people can ask questions about trains. It's right in the middle of the hall. I always see a few people there throughout the day, but of course many thousands using the trains without the need for help.

Can I assume that your drivers are the ones who primarily collect the payments? Sort of like agents in a train station?

I can imagine that Columbia is not as big a tourist destination as are some European cities. As a result, far fewer tourists come there than, say, Amsterdam. That would explain why it is more important for you to offer extra services.

As you probably know, credit cards generally make money (a lot of it, it seems) by making the merchant pay a percentage of the sale to them. For that reason, credit cards are not very popular here. Some stores here offer payment in credit card, but then you need to pay several percentage points extra. According to a local bank report from 2009, 55 percent of Dutch people have credit cards, but use it mostly outside the country.

So, by offering credit cards, the companies here would have to share some of their income with Visa and Mastercard. Apparently, they've decided they'd rather make a small charge (50 cents for train tickets) rather than be forced to pay a far larger sum to the credit card companies. It seems a perfectly sensible solution to me.

Then add a surcharge on the machine to offset CC costs.

I'll be expecting my advisory day rate paid out now.

Now that I think about it, it was only for Mastercard. Visas were accepted without any surcharge. It was also mostly in stores and restaurants where a sign was posted at the cashier about the surcharge.

Nevertheless, it discouraged local people from using credit cards locally.

I take back all the nice things I said. I just bought train tickets and it does suck.

I decided to look at it with fresh eyes and I don't know how any jetlagged passenger manages to buy tickets.

The machine that used to work for my credit card is gone.

Some machines don't take credit cards at all, and they are marked, but no traveler would know what the markings mean.

Many machines claim to take Visa, MC, etc. but none of them would even read my cards. These are cards with PINS and that normally work for me. I'd get as far as saying I'm using credit, the machine instructs me to continue with the key pad and insert my card in the slot. I tried every card in my wallet at several machines and never even got to the "enter pin" stage. They all just said "cancelled" on the screen. Maybe they only take chip cards, but then SAY SO, maybe I was putting in the cards the wrong way, but there was no instruction or illustration on the machine.

I had plenty of Euro bills, but not a single machine took currency, only coins. WHY???? This is just plain absurd. VENDING MACHINES take currency when you want a bag of chips for heaven's sake, the technology can't be that expensive or complex to implement.

If you happen to have enough coins, which I didn't, some machines have coin slots and some don't, but they all look the same meaning you need to carefully inspect for the presence of a coin slot before beginning your transaction.

So, over to the window to stand in a long queue of clueless people - 90% of them are buying tickets to Amsterdam Centraal, how about dedicating a window to just that?? And, maybe put a big display board above it saying "Tickets to Amsterdam Centraal only at this window, Single EUxxx, Day Return EUxxx, plus EU0.50 service charge, Cash and Credit Cards accepted, along with the upcoming train times and track numbers.

Then, I need to find the train. The only reliable way to do so is to look at the big yellow schedules and try to decipher it, but nothing tells you that either. The signs over the ramps to the tracks don't always show all the stops so you can't rely on that. Many times I've walked past all the tracks, scratched my head and then went to the yellow board to find "I need track X". Thinking I'd midread the display, I check and indeed Amsterdam Centraal is NOT on the display at the ramp, even though the train is stopping there. At Centraal there are boards specifically for trains to Schiphol, wouldn't it make sense to have the same displays for trains TO Centraal at Schiphol?

Not to sound like a fan of DB, but in Frankfurt every train that's stopping at Frankfurt Hbf always includes that on the displays even if other intermediate stops may not always show.

Finally, put a little airplane symbol on all the trains going to Schiphol, Frankfurt has figured out how to do this for any train going to FFM Flughafen, makes it all pretty idiot proof.

It just seems like no one has given this any thought, and I sympathize. This shouldn't be rocket science.

Now you've done it! I'm sure someone is going to come along and point out the error of your ways. ;)

This part you can't complain about because they do have the airplane symbol for trains that go to Schiphol. From anywhere in the country. And at Amsterdam Centraal, there is a dedicated Airport monitor when you walk in that shows all the trains going to Schiphol.

As for the rest, I agree it might be tough for a jet-lagged tourist, but for regular business travelers you ought to be able to sort it out by your 2nd or 3rd trip. As I noted above there is a dedicated NS agent sitting at a desk right in the middle of the hall directing people to their trains. Ditto for many other big train stations in the Netherlands. The agent probably gets asked a thousand times per day "which track for the train to Amsterdam?" :)

And in my case I made it a priority years ago to get a local PIN card so I have no worries with buying train tickets and lots of other things in the Netherlands.

Somewhat unrelated, but it look me a good 5 minutes last week to figure out that some ticket machines in Munich would only take credit cards for certain kinds of tickets. For example, you could pay for an MVV ticket using a credit card on MVV machines, and for a DB ticket on DB machines, but DB machines would only accept cash for MVV tickets. The only indication of this was a very faint icon on the screen.

So, maybe you're onto something when you said that only certain machines actually accept credit, despite being externally marked otherwise.

When your bank issues you an old-fashioned, unsafe card, why do you complain that other parties don't accept it? Why not just complain to your bank and tell them you want a card from 2010, not 1980?

And most of your other points are just as unvalid.