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Robert Parker
I don't recall a general discussion about him on FT, so I am curious as to what my fellow FTers think about him, his reviews, and how vintners make wine to make RP stimulated.
Awhile back I was at (let me just call it "exclusive unnamed winery for a small group private tasting") and the tourman explained exactly how "RP sat here, and tasted here, and we all got wet, blah blah blah." (Not an exact quote :eek: ;)) The eventual tasting ended up being ok - I liked what I had, but I could tell that the palate they were trying to please was in the style of high RP scores. This isn't to say I don't like everything he likes. I like plenty of it. I just find it troublesome that in my not so humble and really uneducated opinion that many vintners are making vino to get the high RP (or perhaps WS) score, not necessarily what they would do but for the scoring system. I find myself drinking more and more small winery product and relatively unknown imports, spending less, and enjoying them more than my vino lushismo of the past. Discuss, if you care. |
I too much prefer the smaller wineries, most of the ones we have a lot of product from are in the 3,000 to 4,000 cases a year range. I also know that some wineries will try to hide their stuff from Parker, they don't want him wandering through asking to taste something they are not ready to taste yet, or don't like his reviews.
Personally, I don't usually go with the reviews, I prefer my own tastes. I honestly do not know the ratings Parker has given my favorite wines. I do know that sometimes it's a high number, and other times it's not. But no, I neither buy or base my thoughts on the scores, I much prefer to taste and make up my own mind. I've had some high seventy something rated wines I loved, and I've had some high 90 rated wines I was not thrilled with. |
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Great thread... and even better subject... :eek: :eek: :eek: I think there is no need to personalize this... In my view its actually about calibrating your palate. It may be Parker, or Wine Spectator... or your local wine merchant. Find someone that has a palate that you respect and then calibrate it to your own taste. Once you find someone that "works" for you... then follow him/her. Its not an easy process, but it is worth it. Think of it like finding the right shrink, or the perfect spouse... :D |
I occasionally read his (and other critics) reviews to see what they say they taste in wines. Having worked in the biz, you do get a huge amount of people who want high scores, the "scorewhores" basically. Same type of people chase labels too, they want Rombauer Chard and Silver Oak Cab. They need to be told what to consume and they want the bragging rights to show off to their friends.
As far as winemakers Parkerizing wines, it could be that they want validation, their bosses pressure them for those scores, or they simply like hugely extracted wines..Obviously his style is popular, or we've been collectively led to believe it's popular. Sometimes I genuinely agree with him, other times I scratch my head and just figure I'm not as educated as he in terms of finding the elements he's writing about. I always figured we should drink what we like and keep an open mind. I have no trouble admitting I like a wine from a winery that makes 500,000 cases as much as I might like a wine from a tiny little 2500 case lot. |
Ethics debate
From the Tuesday Wall Street Journal.
By DAVID KESMODEL For decades, wine critic Robert M. Parker Jr. has championed a rigid system of ethics, paying for all of his travels to wineries and shunning gifts from the trade. "It is imperative for a wine critic to pay his own way," Mr. Parker wrote in his latest book, published last fall. But Mr. Parker, it recently has been discovered, hasn't held some fellow writers at his influential newsletter, Robert Parker's Wine Advocate, to the same standard. Last September, when critic Jay Miller visited Australia to review various makers' wines, an industry group, Wine Australia, paid about $25,000 for his air travel, hotel accommodations and meals, says James Gosper, the group's director for North America. The trip was one of more than a half-dozen instances of such paid-for travel by writers for the newsletter in recent years. The trips haven't been disclosed in the newsletter. Mr. Miller also has vacationed and enjoyed lavish social dinners in the company of wine importers whose wines he reviews, according to his own writings and interviews with industry executives. More here... http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124330183074253149.html You should have seen/read the thread over on the Parker bulletin board. :eek: http://dat.erobertparker.com/bboard/...d.php?t=202905 dh |
I knew nothing about that article. What a timely OP :p
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Interesting to see that article come up, there were a lot of things flying around regarding the Parker scores on Aussie and also some old world areas too. I never checked out the Parker boards though to see what they said. Thanks Dan ^
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I can't deny that he has influenced some of my purchasing decisions as have several other wine writers. From time to time I buy a wine which I simply do not have the opportunity to try beforehand. His opinion I find helpful although the scores less so but his is not the only opinion I seek. Nothing better than finding a great wine which has a RP low score
He is, in the end, an individual (or rather a team) and if you like the styles of wine he likes then great. I would have to agree however that it is a shame that there are winemakers who feel they have to create in the Parker style Where I find him most helpful is in Rhone wines. He almost always seems to hit the spot (cf burgundy) Jeff |
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Seems like Miller is staying with the Advocate... |
Originally Posted by cordelli
(Post 11809827)
Personally, I don't usually go with the reviews, I prefer my own tastes.
... I neither buy or base my thoughts on the scores, I much prefer to taste and make up my own mind. I've had some high seventy something rated wines I loved, and I've had some high 90 rated wines I was not thrilled with. The tastings, the settings, the enjoying it with friends and with meals. :) Wouldn't that be great if it was possible? In the absence of all of the above, I suppose it might be instructive to read his reviews, provided you can relate to his scoring system. However, some of the people I am in contact with, either friends with decent collections or people in the trade who are discerning and who like to share their experiences, are my primary guides, when I can't enjoy the fun of tastings. (Hopefully, I can help one day. I would love to assist, when you eventually have time for a trip to the Hunter Valley. Perhaps the Yarra Valley next weekend? The Barossa valley in six weeks? :cool:) |
Generally, I don't pay a whole lot of attention to the scores. If I find a Spectator/Advocate/Enthusiast review on a wine that I've recently tried, I'll look at their description to see how well it matches up with my own palate, more as an educational tool as I continue to refine my palate. The only place where I "score shop" is in the under $10 category, where there's a lot of garbage to be sorted through. But if I'm spending $30+ on a wine, I don't trust that decision to someone else's palate.
I'm glad that Parker does what he does. Love him or hate him, his reviews sell wine, which gives the otherwise uneducated a place to start. Unfortunately, a good Parker score often gives wineries an excuse to charge a premium. I've had a couple of really great wines that I discovered long before Parker did, but once he gave his stamp of approval the wine jumped quickly out of my price range. |
Indeed... the price gauging after a Parker or WS score is indeed an issue....
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The only reason that scores influence my purchasing is if the scores come in extraordinarily low (probably a good sign something is off) or if I feel like the price of the wine is inflated because of a good score. I don't pay any attention to the scores otherwise.
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Originally Posted by UCBeau
(Post 11809902)
I occasionally read his (and other critics) reviews to see what they say they taste in wines. Having worked in the biz, you do get a huge amount of people who want high scores, the "scorewhores" basically. Same type of people chase labels too, they want Rombauer Chard and Silver Oak Cab.
Apparently the local unofficial womens' wine "network" had gotten wind of the sale and trooped in one after another for case upon case of the stuff. The Rombauer rep told him that's why they call it "Cougar Juice". ;) |
I formally worked in the wine industry here in Sydney. While I do not agree with all Parker has to say he is very influential. If our wine received a positive review from him sales would immediately go up substantially. The people who I call Mid range wine enthusiasts with a limited palate but like to drink "good" wine and be seen to drink "good" wine purchase wines that get good reviews from people like Parker and in Australia Huon Hooke
Real wine connoisseur's don't blindly follow wine critics but do use them as more of a guide. |
To my mind, Parker is the bravest, and the best. He was thrown out of Burgundy after he reported that the 1988 he was barrel tasted was not the same wine shipped to USA. his first addition to staff(pierre rogavonie(?)) was to add burgundy back.
i find him very consistent. He loves these big fruit bombs of CA and OZ. he rates them very consistently. I do also like them, and would rate the wines very nearly the same as he does. he loves rhones, and in particular Chateaunauf. i do not understand. i do not care for them. again, he is very consistent. he really likes Bordeaux. i have lost interest in them. just a style adjustment. when he did italians, his taste and mine were similar on Tuscany, but he loves the new style barolo and barbaresco. i just do not understand those wines. but i do not write up wines, i buy and drink most, and do have a small interest in a boutique distributorship. i never let my taste get into the way of a good bottle of wine for someone else. the other major writer in the trade, robinson, just seems so very cute, and does not do in depth tastings that i can find. she also really schmozzes with the trade. i think this not good. wine spectator is of course an embarrassment to all except the owner, even though i really agreed with their burgundy taster.(i think none of the burgundy people advertised in his scandal sheet, so the reviews were honest and the taster had a great palate. |
jer-- where do you stand on big Malbecs from Argentina....?
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Originally Posted by Gaucho100K
(Post 11809866)
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I think there is no need to personalize this... In my view its actually about calibrating your palate. It may be Parker, or Wine Spectator... or your local wine merchant. :D |
Originally Posted by uammiler
(Post 11917558)
^ We could editorialize forever about the Parkerization of wine and the wine industry.
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Originally Posted by clover
(Post 11911370)
Bristol Farms recently had a 25% off sale on all Chardonnays. With case discounts and other available discounts stacked up it really came to about 45-50%. My wife likes Rombauer (and other big oaky, buttery Chards) so I called to have them put aside a case for me. Not my favorite, but certainly easy drinking. The wine manager there told me that they had already sold 10 cases or Rombauer in the 3 days of the sale!
Apparently the local unofficial womens' wine "network" had gotten wind of the sale and trooped in one after another for case upon case of the stuff. The Rombauer rep told him that's why they call it "Cougar Juice". ;) 10 cases in 3 days was the average where I used to work, as soon as the stuff came in, we knew who to call. What I hated about Rombauer was that you had to play games with the distributor. For example, we could get 1 case of Chard for every 2 cases of red, thankfully people seemed to enjoy their Zin as well. |
Originally Posted by Gaucho100K
(Post 11809866)
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Great thread... and even better subject... :eek: :eek: :eek: I think there is no need to personalize this... In my view its actually about calibrating your palate. It may be Parker, or Wine Spectator... or your local wine merchant. Find someone that has a palate that you respect and then calibrate it to your own taste. Once you find someone that "works" for you... then follow him/her. Its not an easy process, but it is worth it. Think of it like finding the right shrink, or the perfect spouse... :D As for Parker - he's got integrity and vast recall and a highly methodical manner of tasting. But he also surely has his biases, and it's good to understand what they are to determine how that relates what he likes and doesn't like to what I like. |
Yes... good point, but when I mentioned one publication I meant one critic.... and yes, calibrating your palate to a changing panel is of course a no-go...
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Blind Tasting
Many years ago I was part of a blind tasting of "Parker" wines. My memory is a bit vague on the exact wines, and my notes were lost to a flood, but the tasting was based on an article in which 6 Cabs were rated and described.
We tatsed all six blind, and then attempted to match the wine with the description. Very few of the group could find agreement with his descriptions. Not very scientific, but it was a fun night and the wines were very good. |
The fallout over on the Parker boards appears to be ongoing.... some say that traffic on his BBoard has dropped 40%... and that subscriptions to the Wine Advocate are not being renewed. Hard to know for sure if this is true or not... but the questions on the travel practices of some of RP's 'employees' continues....
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Originally Posted by Gaucho100K
(Post 12025516)
The fallout over on the Parker boards appears to be ongoing.... some say that traffic on his BBoard has dropped 40%... and that subscriptions to the Wine Advocate are not being renewed. Hard to know for sure if this is true or not... but the questions on the travel practices of some of RP's 'employees' continues....
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I have an uneducated palette (I'm 24), and frequently use RP as a means of expanding my knowledge of styles and terroir.
For example, I've been a fan of California Syrahs, so when I wanted to try an Australian and New Zealand Shiraz, I was able to pick a low-to-mid-90's RP scored wine and be relatively confident I was drinking a good example of its breed. I may or may not agree with his review, but I'll at least know that an educated, experienced person has liked that wine and that I didn't choose a poor wine upon which to base my view of Australian Shiraz. I think you can expand discussions of Robert Parker to include any influential reviewer in a given niche. People accuse wineries of "Parker-izing" their wine; I think that's probably true! Some movies that I didn't care for were obviously "Oscar-ized" to appeal to the Academy voters. However, overall, I'd much rather have someone base their opinion of American cinema upon an Oscar-nominated film than lowest-common-denominator sludge like Transformers or Angels & Demons. To conclude an already too-long post, I will say that I will take the personal advice of a sommelier over a written RP score any day, since I trust that person to take my tastes into account. At Picasso, the Master Sommelier chose a tiny Spanish wine for my girlfriend based on her tastes and the food she was eating, and she loved it; RP has not rated it and probably hasn't heard of it. |
Originally Posted by Eastbay1K
(Post 12025616)
I'd attribute part to economy and part to integrity.
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Originally Posted by briankoenig
(Post 12026062)
To conclude an already too-long post, I will say that I will take the personal advice of a sommelier over a written RP score any day, since I trust that person to take my tastes into account.
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Originally Posted by Gaucho100K
(Post 12025516)
The fallout over on the Parker boards appears to be ongoing.... some say that traffic on his BBoard has dropped 40%... and that subscriptions to the Wine Advocate are not being renewed. Hard to know for sure if this is true or not... but the questions on the travel practices of some of RP's 'employees' continues....
Sorry about the CAPS. |
Originally Posted by briankoenig
(Post 12026062)
I think you can expand discussions of Robert Parker to include any influential reviewer in a given niche. People accuse wineries of "Parker-izing" their wine; I think that's probably true! Some movies that I didn't care for were obviously "Oscar-ized" to appeal to the Academy voters. To conclude an already too-long post, I will say that I will take the personal advice of a sommelier over a written RP score any day, since I trust that person to take my tastes into account. At Picasso, the Master Sommelier chose a tiny Spanish wine for my girlfriend based on her tastes and the food she was eating, and she loved it; RP has not rated it and probably hasn't heard of it. i do not know the "Master Sommelier" at Picasso(don't really know what the title is), but i have been to a large number of tastings with people in the wine industry who are very big names, and i am amazed that a very high percentage of them are much more mouth than taste. i do also think that they look to the higher end of the price scale for a suitable match. "Master Sommelier" seems to be a west coast sort of thing, and i'm and east coast guy. disclaimer: i do not have an outstanding palate. |
Originally Posted by dhammer53
(Post 12028969)
Yes. Traffic is down. There are less new post when I logon. A group of posters set up a new website earlier in the year. the traffic on Winebeserkers.com (sp)? IS VERY BUSY. I SEE LOTS OF THE OLD POSTERS THERE, AND THEY'VE SWORN OFF THE PARKER BOARDS. it's pretty amazing when you think about it. it reminds me of the old days here. ;)
Some say that permanent damage has been done to the Wine Advocate "brand"... I guess only time will tell. Perhaps there is still time to salvage things if the Guillotine is polished & sharpened.... alas, it remains to be seen if the Egos involved allow this to happen...? |
Originally Posted by slawecki
(Post 12030823)
"Master Sommelier" seems to be a west coast sort of thing, and i'm and east coast guy.
"Education and certification Though sommelier is a job title potentially anyone may claim, becoming a certified sommelier requires classes and an examination.[3] The certification is offered by a wide range of educators, and a basic education may be attained for $800–3,750 over the course of six months.[3] The Court of Master Sommeliers, established in 1977, is the examining body for the Master Sommelier Diploma, the Advanced Sommelier Certificate and the Introductory Sommelier Certificate, and was created under the supervision of the Vintners Company, The Institute of Masters of Wine, The British Hotels & Restaurants Association, The Wine & Spirit Association of Great Britain and The Wholesale Tobacco Trade Association.[4] The Court also offers an intermediate level of Education titled "Advanced Sommelier Course" which invites carefully selected candidates to sit and be both tested and educated in the rigors of the Master Sommelier program. The course is generally offered 2-3 times per year and acceptance is highly controlled. Often candidates will apply for 3-4 years before being offered a position. The course is extreme in its preparation and testing for potential Masters Candidates. The Guild of Sommeliers is a nonprofit membership organization, created by a group of Master Sommeliers, to support the development of the trade. Master Sommelier Since the Master Sommelier Diploma was introduced in 1969, 171 people from around the world had become Master Sommeliers by 2009.[4] Of these there were 74 active Master Sommeliers in the Americas, 25 in Europe, with a female contingent of 12, all based in the U.S.[4] By 2008, the diploma had been awarded to 167 professionals world wide since its inception, 96 of these from North America, of which 15 were women.[5] In France a few top catering schools offer a Sommelier's Diploma which is regarded as the basic for French Sommeliers." |
Originally Posted by briankoenig
(Post 12033542)
Not an East/West coast thing, or even an American thing. Cribbing from Wikipedia:
i did not see the names parker, tanzer, johnson, Robinson on the list. i have never been to a tasting in which kysela has participated. i do know him. he must have a great palate, as he has generated an excellent portfolio of imports from what at the time were nowhere places(like Languedoc). he is also one of the major importers of Argentinean wines. i do not know whom else is a member. i do not think that anyone has a lock on the title MASTER SOM., and there are a lot of groups bestowing it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_of_Wine this is an impressive list of people. anyone in the trade has heard of half of them. i did not see the names |
MS != MW.
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Originally Posted by UCBeau
(Post 12035203)
MS != MW.
I dont think thats correct. |
!= != =
That is to say the doesn't equal sign isn't the same thing as the equal sign. |
Originally Posted by violist
(Post 12045821)
!= != =
That is to say the doesn't equal sign isn't the same thing as the equal sign. |
Originally Posted by Gaucho100K
(Post 12049802)
Oh.... OK, thanks for the clarification... ^
!= is "not equal" |
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Shoes just how Tech handicapped I am.... :( |
As a marketing tool, RP is invaluable - I know someone whose idea of shopping for wine is the cheapest red/white at Costco at or above 90 points. Her palate tells her that it is a fantastic wine and she's happy.
However, as a tool for those with individual palates it's next to useless, apart from the fact that he often ranks good wines low, meaning they are available at a more reasonable price. There are several problems, other than his somewhat unusual taste buds. First, a 50 point scale (for that's what it is - it starts at 50 rather than 0) is ludicrously precise for a matter which is 90% qualitative. Second, the scale ignores the question of what you are enjoying with the wine - is it on its own, with food and what type of food. A wine that tastes fantastic by itself might overwhelm food, which requires a more subtle approach etc. Third, wines develop over time, whereas his score (whilst it can be amended in theory) attaches to the wine, whether the wine improves with age or deteriorates. Having said all of that, the background information included in his books is invaluable and authoritative, cutting through a lot of the PR BS which emanates from the producers. The best of both worlds is to use him for background info, but use the 4 or 5 star scales favored by for example Decanter, Hugh Johnson et al. |
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