Oh, they don't take Amex -- How much do you care?
 

An emerging local trend here on Cape Cod is for restaurants to take all cards except Amex -- it's not to make a protest, but more like a quiet acknowledgement that nowadays everyone who has an Amex also has another card [and, I suppose, that the Amex fees are high].

So here are the questions -- honest answers please --

What thoughts cross your mind about the restaurant you're in if you have to put away the Amex and pull out something else to pay the check?

Assume you enjoyed the meal. What about next time you go out -- what do you think about going back to the place that takes Visa/MC etc.?

Any insurmountable problem if the meal is a business expense and you can't use the Amex?

I own a restaurant, and I'm not sure I'll join this bandwagon, but we did drop I-Dine in 2004, with no effect on business. Also, I don't observe that guest checks paid by Amex are any higher than checks paid by other cards. (and by the way, who are those oddballs with Discover cards?)

If I know in advance that a restaurant doesn't take Amex, I will usually choose somewhere else unless I MUST dine there - it creates an appearance of cheapness by the proprietor (what else besides CC fees are they trying to scrimp on? Food quality/freshness? Staff?) - and/or the inconvenience of having to use a card other than Amex, which is the place I put all my business expenses. Yeah, I have other cards, but Amex gives me a LOT of bennies for using theirs (plus the ability, if I want it, to charge virtually unlimited amounts without ever incurring interest charges - sorry they extract this from merchants.)

Frankly, unless your establishment is good/popular/under-the-counter enough to command 'cash only,' you need to take Amex. Not taking it turns away corporate business (from those who have corporate-issues AXs and must use them for all business meals) and casual/personal dining from many frequent diners/travellers.

I have, on the other hand, paid cash to retail merchants (not restaurants) in exchange for NOT using Amex, in a deal where we split the avoided fees and negotiated a good price (e.g. on $x,xxx electronics). That would be kind of tough to implement in a restaurat environment.

Bottom line, accepting Amex probably helps your gross at the cost of a small hit to your net on the Amex tickets; that's why they get away with their fees.

As for Discover... :rolleyes: Don't have one. Never will.

My corporate card is an Amex. I would never ever go through the hassle of paying with a personal card and then being reimbursed by our accounting department (they are in another country, have strange hours and are horrible unresponsive, so there's no guarantee I'll ever see that $ again). Therefore, if I am entertaining, I make sure in advance that the restaurant accepts Amex.

I would bet a ton of the restaurants out there that do not take Amex and are doing quite will will argue with you on this one.

The fees add up, and they make a decision to keep my prices down by not having to cover the higher fee you force them to pay with an Amex, so to me that is a good business mind.

So many restaurants I frequent don't take Amex, that I am pretty much used to it. I don't think any more or any less of a restaurant that does not take Amex.

If I eat at a restaurant, I'll eat there because I like the food, not because Amex isn't accepted.

That being said - I only have an Amex because it's my corp charge card. It's pretty easy to get re-imbursed for meals not charged on the Amex in that I don't have to send in any receipts for meals less than $75. IF I did have to send in receipts, I might choose to eat at another restaurant.

Hope this helps in making a decision.

I agree. I don't understand avoiding restaurants because the owners seem to look cheap by not accepting the card. I think it looks quite practical. Just make it clear which credit cards you do accept for payment.

I am not lucky enough to have an Amex Coporate card , but if i did I still think I would go to the restaurant that has the food I like at prices that seem reasonable to me.
I have never chosen restaurants based on the cards the take,

Well, I prefer to use AMEX, but if a vendor doesn't accept it, I pull out the MC which gathers AA miles. Little by little I am acruing miles there.

But I also believe that the restaurants have (or should have) folded the fees into the price of the meals already. So I do feel it's cheap.
Rita

Wouldnt' affect my dining choice. I prefer to use my Amex, but as a business owner, I hate to take it.

We also own a business and have just recently (within the last month)stopped offering our online customers the option of using their AMEX. We have yet to see any difference in our sales. I do want to point out that if they call and inquire about using a corporate AMEX, we will take it...our walk in customers and long time account still have the option. Mostly we are trying to get away from the online customers who buy 20 dollars here, 50 dollars there from using their card that costs us, the company, more in the long run from all their silly fees.


As for restraunts, I see no reason why I would pick one place over another because they take my AMEX. I love the card for various reasons, but I have no problem paying with our corporate MC if they prefer not to deal with AMEX. I will always look to see if they take it but if not...no big deal.

I won't not patronize a restaurant that doesn't take AMEX, but I won't become a regular at that restaurant because of it.

I eat out almost every night. AMEX is the first card out of my wallet. I am real whore when it comes to points. I am also obsessed with iDINE. Between both I have earned many, many, many points/miles. Enough to fly quite a few people to my wedding (first class) in a couple of months. In South America. Those points add up.

I ate last week at a restaurant called Les Enfants Terrible on Canal Street in NYC. Good French/African food.

ANd how did I pay? AMEX. Why? That's the ONLY card they take. :)

I agree with others above my love for points/miles but I usually simply use a backup card to pay for food/services at businesses that don't accept Amex. Recently, I ate at a restaurant that took everything under the sun, Dining club, personal checks, etc...so I assumed amex was no problem, to my surprise the owner complained that she was small business and amex took 5% of charges, she went on for at least 20minutes. So instead of whining also, I just took out another rewards card by visa. Case closed.

I tend to avoid restaurants that don't take Amex.

Little by little?... What about the 1111 miles you just earned? A few more trips to the dentist and you'll have enough for a MileSAAver award. :p :D

Count me among those who will avoid an establishment that doesn't take Amex. Unless that establishment has some unique quality that can't be had elsewhere, I'll always patronize a place that takes Amex over one that doesn't.

It blows my mind that anyone would choose food based on what credit card the place takes (unless they don't take any). Even for business expenses. So sad.

Obviously you don't approve of that line of reasoning, but why exactly does that make it *sad*?

i think it depends
 

i have several cards which earn double points etc. so if i earn the same amount of miles than i dont care to pay with my visa etc.

but i agree that amex should lower they fees, as they are way too high.

dp

I always have a back up or two. I would never make a restaurant decision based on the what credit cards they take. My biggest fear is they won't take any credit cards at all. I am really surprised by all the hard core AMEX people out there.

What other decisions does everyone make based on the your credit card.

I said that I "tend to avoid" restaurants that don't take Amex, not that I flatly refuse to eat at any of them. I see it as somewhat of an indication that the restaurant is not very customer service oriented which often spills over into the overall dining experience. I know some restaurants may view the situation as "Amex charges too much of a percentage" instead of thinking: "There may be some customers who won't dine here at all if we don't accept the card they have in their wallet/purse". If I find that a restaurant has SIGNIFICANTLY better food and service than its competitors, then I will eat there even if they don't accept any credit cards. I have rarely found this to be the case, however.

I agree, to me not taking Amex leaves me with the impression of "cheapness" as others have said. I try to put 100% of my expenses on Amex for the points, and the convenience spending on one card, makes it easy to keep track of everything. I will most definentaly avoid any business that does not accept Amex unless I absolutely have to buy something there.

Having said that I would be curious to know what exactly Amex charges, as compared to VISA/MC? Are we talking tenths of a percent or whole percents?

I think still its one of those things, where you spend money to make money...

I also agree. Not accepting AMEX appears "cheap" to me. Since acceptance of AMEX is common in McDonalds, I would like to think it would be accepted in much finer establishments.

I applaud any business that doesn't accept AMEX, I hate AMEX with every cell in my body.

I've been stuck with them three times over the past 25 yrs as a corporate card and I break the rules every time; with all of the AMEX billing problems I've had over the years, it isn't worth the personal time fixing their problems. If more businesses would refuse AMEX, perhaps more corporations would consider moving to a VISA or MC Corporate Card program.

Whiteknuckles said: "I said that I "tend to avoid" restaurants that don't take Amex ... I see it as somewhat of an indication that the restaurant is not very customer service oriented which often spills over into the overall dining experience."

One of the reasons I started this thread is that I sense some people are beginning to draw an exactly opposite conclusion about a restaurant that doesn't take Amex -- "they're putting all of their money into the food".

I have wondered if the rise in this perception follows the recent decline in I-dine, especially at better, independent restaurants.

I'm wondering where you found these people who think not taking Amex translates into higher quality food. Is there a thread on this somewhere? And I don't know why you would compare Amex to I-Dine.....I'll bet most people other than rabid frequent flyers have never even heard of I-Dine, but I think you'd be hard pressed to locate someone who doesn't know what an American Express Card is. Even I'm not kooky enough to avoid a restaurant because they don't participate in I-Dine, but I HAVE gone to some restaurants that I wasn't even aware of before, simply because I learned that I could earn a few miles there. Now, I've heard a few merchants complain over the years that Amex charges a higher percentage than Visa or MasterCard. I don't know what the difference is, but let's say that it's 2% more for each transaction. If someone charges a $100 tab to Amex, it would cost you $2 more than if they had used Visa/MC. Now, if I walk up to the door of your restaurant and decide not to enter at all because I see that you only take Visa/MC, how much have you lost? I guess you'll never know.

My guess is that you've lost a potential customer that doesn't give jacksquat about service since AMEX has no clue what service is.

Miles? I am no mileage nut..... I don't and will not carry a card that markets to me on airline miles. I want an accurate statement on time. AMEX consistently cannot provide that. I consistently will go out of my way to spend my hard earned dollars with vendors that refuse to accept AMEX.

:D

AMEX? :td: :td:

There's no doubt that some people don't like Amex. There's even a website called amexsucks.com. Do I care? Not really.

In Europe it is much more common that Amex (& Diners) are not accepted, and most Amex holders carry MC and Visa and aren't so bothered.

My Amex is Sterling denominated, yet I only typically spend 20-30 days a year in the UK. Amex adds 2.75% surcharge on the currency rate for any non sterling transactions. Add that to the 3% - 4% they charge the retailer and you can see why it pays both me and the retailer if I get out my Visa card instead!!

Reply to Whiteknuckles' comments:

1. I observe that our customers have multiple cards, and they are very aware of what ancillary benefits come with them, and they often have a personal pecking order figured out that allows them to rank cards that can't be directly compared depending on the transaction -- e.g. my Corporate Amex with membership rewards vs. my Starwood Amex vs. my GM Mastercard vs. my Aadvantage Visa. Anyone with I-Dine knows very well how that fits in the mix.

2. I have observed a perception that in any one market, the very best restaurants don't take I-Dine. Especially true in a market that has a strong presence from independent operators -- e.g. NYC, Boston. Again, the thread was started because I've wondered if a similar point of view was driving the trend of some (generally stronger) independent restaurants in this area not taking Amex. I specifically have NOT seen any revolt of the type you describe -- a "Boston Tea Party" protest against Amex's high merchant discount. In that type of action, merchants were thought to be trying to influence Amex. In this current trend, I'm wondering if, instead, merchants view Amex as being just irrelevant, given that 100% of guests are carrying a substitute payment method -- Visa/MC.

Your vehement stance about the value of your Amex is not unexpected, but what I'm trying to discern is whether such consumers are in decline, and strongly worded web posts aside, whether the card really does drive their behavior, to the exclusion of any other alternatives. If they didn't have a richer points offering, I wonder what loyalty Amex could command for the everyday transaction.

I have to laugh at your arrogance. Given your earlier comments, you appear to believe that carrying a low service card somehow makes you "above the crowd."

My view is 180 degrees from yours - my feeling is that anyone who feels that AMEX is a good company, hasn't lived life well. Otherwise you would know that many of us are snickering at the wannabees that believe AMEX makes them something special.

Actually, if gsilliman would, I'd be interested in a few pieces of data.
1. Total transaction cost on a $50 dinner for AMEX and Visa/MC (or higher if your typical tab is higher).
2. Does this change appreciably for higher/lower tabs?
3. Now, if your also willing to share, your "net per tab" for everything excluding the merchant fees? This gives the margin you're playing with. It might give others on this board more perspective on why you would want to avoid AMEX.

Myself? For me business expenses are significantly easier if I use my corporate AMEX. Basically, for meals I send in no paper if it's on the card, I have to send in paper if it isn't. Do I avoid a place I like because of no AMEX? Nope. Am I less willing to try a new place if (on business) it doesn't take AMEX, yes unless it has come recommended from someone I trust.

Our average check is about $85. Amex costs a little over $1 more vs. Visa/MC/Discover for the same transaction. Put another way, it costs 1-1.5% more of the check vs. Visa.

That difference does not change significantly as check size increases. Fixed cost per transaction is pennies. The total cost is driven by the percentage discount, which doesn't change as check goes up (With one anomaly: we now pay LESS for really small transactions -- <$10 -- as processors try and capture this business)

It's not just a question of total margin. This business is chock full of expenses and vendors that cost "just pennies per customer" or "just a few dollars a day". Everyone wants to use our cash flow to set themselves up with an annuity. Our experience is that these expenses require a lot of upper mgmt scrutiny, becaue (a) they add up, and (b) once they're built in to the operation, everyday mgmt and staff can't influence/manage these costs.

To put it another way: We are currently heatedly debating 2 other expenses that would cost about $1 each per table:

- White tablecloths
- something more expensive and more substantial than butter or oil/cheese/garlic to accompany the bread basket -- a pesto or a homemade olive puree.

In the midst of this discussion, we find ourselves wondering about a lot of other things that cost about $1/table and wonder where they fall on the cost/benefit spectrum.

You can also look at the little costs in terms of their aggregate impact. If all Amex transactions could be substituted by Visa, then $12,000 would drop right to the bottom line. We're looking at some $10-12,000 capital improvements right now, and if I could find that kind of money by changing one small thing in our business, then I can't help but look at it.

BTW, my working hypothesis is that most customers think similarly to GOF in terms of their card-usage preferences.
-

A few observations:
1) AMEX's foreign exchange rates are competely uncompetitive. 3-5% range to the consumer, who knows that the merchant loses. I will never use it again overseas.

2) There are many places that take VI/MC but not AX, due to cost. Neiman Marcus ("Needless Markup") only takes Amex. I don't want or need a card that says "snob".

3) There are plenty of good restaurants that have better things to spend money on than amex's fees, like improving their food.

4) The new Platinum Class UA Visa gives double points on restaurants, and all the things that the MR/DL Amexes give. Why bother with amex anymore.

I'm ditching all but my SPG amex.

To answer your question, my employer make it very difficult (not impossible) to get reimbursed for employee and/or entertainment meals that are not on the Corp AMEX. Even to the point of wanting my $6.99 airport “lunch” on the card. That said, yes, when I am traveling on business – Corp AMEX or going elsewhere.

My business questions to you are:

1) Are you dependent on business travelers for a significant amount of your business?

If you answer Yes – then I suggest you keep accepting AMEX

2) Do you have a competitive advantage over other restaurants in your area such that your repeat business is local traffic?

If you answer Yes – then I suggest you drop AMEX as your repeat customers will understand.

One caveat from my experience with local customers, almost every white collar employee of this town’s largest employer had a Corp AMEX. If you sold food in this town (from pizza to 4 star dining), you took AMEX.

JMHO.

Outside the USA and Europe, there are also lots of restaurants and retailers who would not take AMEX, Diners cards. Some even go to the extent of saying they will not take cards or that if you wnat to pay by card, they will charge you the additional card commission fees which to me seems to be double profiteering.

Included in the price is their profit margin and they want to add on card charges.

The worst thing is that very often outside of Europe and USA, in terms of shopping, you often have little shopping options. If you want that nice bag that only a certain shop sells, the shop will only take cash or at most Visa and MC, no AMEX, no Diners card, no JCB card.

In smaller asian markets like Hong Kong and Singapore, im also aware that travel agents tend to pull a card charge like 3% or 2% if you pay for your air ticket by card. Very often, when one agent does it, teh rest follows suit soon after.

I would be interested to know from an american standpoint, how one would deal with such a situation.

There is a sushi place in West Village near Houston St. - Tomoe Sushi. One of the best sushi in NYC, and the only card they accept is Amex!

As for those who use Discover - there is a Restaurant version of Discover card, which gives 5% cashback for dining out (tiered though...)

:eek: What?!?!?!?!??! :( Say it ain't so!!!!!! How can you post such blasphemy on FT? That's it, you're banned from Flyertalk for life!!! :D

My corporate card is an Amex, but I frequently eat on the run, and so if you are a MacDonalds, I will grab a chicken sandwich and and Iced Tea and pay in cash and put down $5 on my expense report. However, if I am taking 10 clients out for dinner and a few bottles of a nice Cabernet I have to use my corporate card.

So, which customer do you want to serve?

Actually, I'd prefer to serve BOTH customers @ $5 and customers @ $500, which is probably why many McDonald's now take cards, including AMEX.

Analise makes a good point, and it prompts me to mention something that occurred during a recent drive in southern California:

A modern gas station -- a national chain (ARCO) -- had the best prices by about 6c per gallon at one particular highway stop. Naturally, we stopped there. There were zero signs on the pumps nor on the large signs visible from the road to convey this following peculiarity: no credit cards accepted. None. Not Amex, not Visa, none. It took some time to figure out that the automated machines would accept only debit cards and then only while extracting some per-transaction tribute from the customer.

I walked to the cashier, who stated "no credit cards, we don't need the trouble." Well, I don't need troublesome business owners who conceal unusual practices like this, and I went to the next station.

It had been 20 years since I had encountered a gas station (and this last incident was in rural Missouri in the 80s) which did not accept credit cards.