Obnoxious Kids in Upscale Restaurants - What to Do?
 

I am so steamed right now, I need to get it off my chest & ask advice on what we should have done. To set the scene, my husband has been on the road for 2 months, just came off an intensive sales meeting & flew into San Francisco to run a trade show yesterday. He suggested I fly up & meet him to get some time together alone away from the kids & everyday life. Due to Chowhound.com's & our Concierge's excellent rec's, made a 7:45 resv at a very upscale restaurant here in the City.

Started off great - wonderful appetizers, great service, etc. Right as main course was served, a huge shriek came up from across the restaurant - sounded like Minnie Mouse on helium. We were at opposite corners of the restaurant, with a bar in between, yet could hear every scream, shriek, whine, word from this kid like he was in the booth with us. Tried to ignore, but it just kept getting louder & louder & I kept getting more irritated. Our server was apologising profusely & said the kid was driving all of them nuts too - that they were trying to hurry the party, but they would not be rushed. We decided to forgo dessert that this restaurant is very much known for & we were looking forward to & had our server give us coffee to go to drink outside away from the din while we waited for a taxi. Our $200 romantic dinner was ruined & we had to cancel the hotel's car back as he couldn't get there earlier to get us out of there & pay for an expensive taxi ride.

I'm a mom & would never take a 2 year old into an upscale restaurant at 8:15 & even if in a family restaurant, short of Chuck E. Cheese, I would have pulled my child out of there so fast at the first scream & forgone dinner myself. The male of the group trotted smugly through the restaurant in a grubby tshirt & shorts as the child was wailing - further irritation.

Ok, Think I feel a little better now - am I totally over-reacting? What should we have done - the server knew we (& the rest of the restaurant) were upset. Advice please?

(This also posted on chowhound.com - Not About Food & many interesting responses)

As I new dad of 4 1/2 month old twins, I wouldn't think of going to a nice restaurant at a prime time, let alone at a prime time on a weekend. Because my wife and I love going out to eat and because we want to keep some semblance of our old life along with our new one, we try to go out on Friday and Saturday nights very early (i.e. 5:30 or 6:00 at the latest). We are quick eaters and are out of there by 7:00. We will go to nice-ish places but not 4-star restaurants. And the moment one of the kids starts crying, we do everything we can to stop them from crying. If they continue on for more than, say, 30 seconds, we will pick them up and take them outside to calm them down.

If one of my kids was screaming uncontrollably like this kid and I stayed in the restaurant, I would be terribly embarrassed. If your thing happened to me, I'd have considered going over to that table and suggesting that they might want to take the baby outside for a minute and that might help him. Although it's always easier to say I'd do this than actually do it.

All that, but a bit off topic . . .
 

I echo all that was said above. I get very upset in similar situations, esp when dining after 8PM, sometimes as late as 9-10PM -- and still having whiny crying kids to contend with (at 10PM, no wonder).

However, I might add an aspect that is a bit off-topic that might have contributed to brendamc's situation:
The fact that such loud noise could be heard across the dining room may also have been a consequence of the acoustics in the restaurant. I have noticed that some restaurants have atrocious acoustics, and sounds seem to reverberate off the walls from all over. Depending on the lay-out of the dining room, a sensible owner will try to put in some sound-deadening (curtains, banquettes, etc) devices to keep noise at least confined to the immediate area.

As a weird example, I was at an very nice but very noisy Philly-area restaurant in a converted rail station. While sitting there alone (my dining partner in the loo), I could distinctly hear a conversation as clearly as if the two were seated at my table (-- and a tantalzing conversation it was! :o ). I realized that the arched ceiling acted as conduit, bringing sounds from one end of the room to the other. I mention this to the owner, who later installed artistic ceiling tiles that effectively deadened the arch effect and all the other ambient noise as well.

Out of curiousity, might you post the name of the restaurant. Those of us that engage in fine dining in SF may want to take your anecdote into account. IMHO the restaurant should have taken action.

While I am a grandmother of many, I have no patience for unruly children in public. I believe that an upscale restaurant has an obligation to it's clientele. They should have a rule that no children under 5 are allowed after 6PM or something to that effect. I did, on one occasion, write an e mail to a restaurant explaining that I had come for dinner and had to listen to a screaming child all evening. Since it was a large restaurant I wondered why people with children couldn't be seated in one area, while those without were seated a distance away. I got a lovely letter of apology and a gift certificate to be used toward a future dinner. I would certainly contact the restaurant and explain exactly what you posted above. While it is JMHO, I think they are obliged to provide a certain ambiance with the food.

You are so right - very poor accoustics in this restaurant - carried right up & across the restaurant & down into our ears (and many other diner's also).

To protect the semi-guilty, I'm not telling - I'd also like to give them a chance to retify the situation - thanks for your understanding...

In situations like this, it's tough to know what to do. Obviously, the first best way to take action has already been discussed -- it needs to be handled by the parents, using some common sense. A young child probably doesn't need to be up that late. If they are, it's likely they'll be fussy. Not taking this into account points to how inconsiderate those parents are of others. It's something the conscientious would think about.

Failing the parents' good judgment, the restaurant -- particularly one that's upscale, needs to make it a priority to ensure the comfort of all their guests. If one guest is causing the discomfort of countless others, well, it goes without saying the restaurant has the right (arguably even the obligation) to do something about it. Even a young child is a customer and should be treated accordingly. After all, wouldn't they throw a loud, obnoxious drunk out if necessary? Of course.

Obviously, this is a sticky situation because it requires a judgment call on the scene at the moment. If things are really that bad, and the staff knows it and patrons are complaining about it, the restaurant should do something. Not to is, well, just rather foolish. Why not have a few unhappy customers instead of a room full of them?

Unfortunately I think we have all been through this
 

Finally I am of the age where I feel that I can use some female authority in the situation. I have spoken to restaurant managers and demanded a solution to the problem on the spot. Usually they comply unless the child is the offspring of someone very famous, very wealthy or both.

Often I walk over to the offending parents and say (as sweetly as I can manage) 'you will certainly enjoy this child when it is a teenager'. Sometimes the parents get it. Sometimes they thank me!

In these cases, the restaurant needs to take action, immediately. I dont care if this is Bill Gate's kid... they need to deal with this. If they dont, guests that are forced to leave the establishment should do so with their meal expenses comped, or some significant other compensation.

I'm the mother of three children, and I will have to disagree that children should never be allowed in upscale restaurants. Sometimes the children behave better than some of the adults!

However, I absolutely concur that a disruptive child is not fair to others. However, the child is not to blame -- it's the parents.

The worst thing you can do, in my opinion, is to say something negative to the parents. That only makes them defensive and more likely to say, "My meal is just as expensive as yours," and other things like that.

Here's a suggestion. Walk up to the parents and NOT in a negative tone at all, but a sincerely helpful one, say, "I'm several tables away, but I hear you're having some difficulties. Is there anything I can do to help?"

First of all, that alerts the parents that the child's behavior is being noticed by others! But also, you aren't pointing nasty fingers at them, which is probably only going to make matters worse. If the parents have any intelligence or tact at all, they'll realize that the child is ruining the dinner of others and perhaps they'll take the child outside or hurry their meal.

Even if nothing comes of it, you can be confident that your behavior did not match that of the child's!

Jennifer

Just wanted to say that it wasnt me. :)

Brendamc, it sounds like you made things even worse by leaving early. You missed out on the dessert for which the restaurant is famous, and you waited for a taxi back to the hotel rather than the pre-arranged car service. If I were you I would have waited it out.

According to your description of them, a dress code would have solved this problem. No need to punish innocent customers with well-behaved children.

It gets to a point where you just can't take it anymore & they were showing no signs of leaving, no matter how much the server was trying to rush them. How many upscale restaurants really enforce dress codes anymore - especially in more casual cities like SFO? I know a very few in LA do, or they provide you with an ill-fitting jacket & tie, but we're not talking Paris or NY here.

Almost none but I don't see why a dress code would solve the issue? I got a call very last minute this past week to go Masa's in SF for dinner. As I was at work already, I went in kakais and a polo. No one batted an eye.

I guess I disagree that children should be banned from nice restaurants in prime time -- otherwise how will they aspire to a life beyond Burger King? But their parents, the restaurant staff and fellow diners should all expect proper behavior or proceed with sanctions, up to and including removal -- and the parents are the first link in the chain.

Adults may not realize that the very things they want out of a nice restaurant -- leisurely meal, low noise level, absence of stimuli -- are torment to small children.

My wife and I did take our son to a couple of very nice restaurants when he was less than one year old, but we booked 530p tables and were out of there before the main dinner rush. As my son grew older I did remove him from upscale restaurants a couple of times -- we went outside and played or went walking until our companions were done -- and, yeah, I had my fine entree out of a Styro container later on, but it was the proper course to preserve the restaurant atmosphere and the proper lesson for my kid.

Dining etiquette
 

The only way to teach young children restaurant or theater etiquette is to take them to restaurants and theaters while they are very young and regard it as an instructional enterprise. Children who aren't taught how to behave in various public venues won't learn it by osmosis and are condemned to being boors in adulthood. Are we raising a generation of cultural illiterates in America?

So. These parents can't be rushed, and they allow the little one to shriek, scream, and otherwise ruin countless other diner's evenings.

What a thoughful, insightful bunch!

The only fair solution is to evict them (on the grounds of creating a public disturbance). Ridiculous? Hardly. Disturbing the peace is a punishable offense.

The other solution is to allow them to stay, and for them to pick up the tab for the entire room.

Just curious--are there any restaurants where children are banned altogether?

Let them eat happy meals...
 

If you can afford a nice restaurant, you can afford a baby sitter. Quiet, stimulus-free environments are not appropriate for a young child's developmental level, it is not fair to the other guests, and honestly, it's just not fun for the children. If it is a *family* outing, why wouldn't you choose a venue more child-friendly where you don't have to be on their case the entire time or sitting in the parking lot? I'm not saying it has to be Chucky Cheese, but any of the loud chain restaurants would have been a better choice (and drowned the screaming kids out).

I agree with the argument, "how will children learn otherwise?" but a four-star restaurant is not the appropriate place for table manner lessons for a five-year-old. Ten, twelve, or when the child has demonstrated the ability to sit quietly for a sustained period of time would be the appropriate time to take him to such a place. Anyway, I wouldn't let it ruin my dinner...get up and move, ask to be seated in the "non-children" section, or offer to get crayons for the kids at the hostess stand and then come back and sweetly say, "oh, I'm sorry--they don't have any. But the Chili's down the street has some." (Personally I find my teacher look stops them dead in their tracks--kids and parents both) It seems there will always be people with more money than sense...

Good question..... would this be legal?

Yes, as far as I know. A restaurant can't ban black people (race) or Jews (religion) or the disabled (ADA), but children are not a protected class. Not a big deal, as they won't be children forever. :)

The question is, would it be good for business to ban children? Probably not, since no one knows of a restaurant that does.

You can always eat in the bar. It's sometimes just as nice and more peaceful than the restaurant, in in many states nobody under 21 is allowed in.

:) True, but I for one am not paying hundreds of dollars to eat in a bar, no matter how nice it is. Not to mention that I have an aversion to both alcohol and tobacco....

Further, if housing can get away with not having kids around, then I would suppose that restaurants can do the same. (Not that I hate kids...I just hate the screaming part, esp. when spending outrageous amounts of cash for a meal....)

My kids were exposed to good restaurants from an early age and learned how to behave in them. It's well and good to say "Chili's down the block has crayons," but when traveling - which they also found out about from an early age - there isn't always a Chili's down the block. I credit a great deal of their current comfort level in many countries and social situations to this early exposure, so they grew up knowing that a wide range of restaurants, etc., is normal - they didn't get their first taste of a "nice" one after their underlying behavior patterns had already been formed at Chuck-E-Cheese - and that one has to adapt one's behavior to where one finds oneself.

If they ever got disruptive, and they were reasonably normal in this regard, either my then wife or I would take them for a walk. This also teaches the lesson that disturbing others is not acceptable.

As I recall a religious leader saying from the pulpit once: "Noisy children, like good resolutions, should be carried out quickly."

I dont' think they have to be banned but I think that setting a curfew for young children, early evening before they are tired and cranky, is not a terrible thing.

Just because a couple can reproduce, it doesn't necessarily make them good parents....unfortunately

I haven't experienced what you did....maybe the restaurants I like don't attract the rich-and-rude parent crowd!! YIPPEE!!!!!!!

But if I had been in your shoes, and you both were on the road, I would not have confronted the selfish parents at all. I would have asked the waiter or captain to bring the manager or owner of the restaurant. I would have him/her listen to that screach and say that this is ruining the ambience of the meal and see what the manager/owner offers to do to remedy the situation. If I am unsatisfied with the answer (especially if that answer is to do nothing), then I would threaten to write a letter to the BBB about how the restaurant does not live up to its advertisment of an upscale and elegant environment. If the restaurant were in tourist guide books, I would also threaten to write to them a letter panning not only the experience but the inept way in which the manager/owner refused to resolve it.

And then I would follow through and write those letters as well as send copies to the owners.

If I was the manager I would ask them to leave and offer to package up their meal before they leave. What's the point of taking a kid to a upscale restaurant to eat chicken fingers and fries? It makes me wonder why people take their little kids (and even older kids) to a buffet that costs quite a bit so they can eat onion rings and pizza? Introduce them to seafood and worthwhile stuff. Restaurants like that havent made much money off me since I was 8 and already was into the exotic stuff. It's too bad, but like I always say these people look out for themselves only and dont give a **** about anyone else, including other diners in a fancy restaurant while their baby screams and carries on.

[QUOTE=Analise]Just because a couple can reproduce, it doesn't necessarily make them good parents....unfortunately

I haven't experienced what you did....maybe the restaurants I like don't attract the rich-and-rude parent crowd!! YIPPEE!!!!!!!

But if I had been in your shoes, and you both were on the road, I would not have confronted the selfish parents at all. I would have asked the waiter or captain to bring the manager or owner of the restaurant. I would have him/her listen to that screach and say that this is ruining the ambience of the meal and see what the manager/owner offers to do to remedy the situation. If I am unsatisfied with the answer (especially if that answer is to do nothing), then I would threaten to write a letter to the BBB about how the restaurant does not live up to its advertisment of an upscale and elegant environment. If the restaurant were in tourist guide books, I would also threaten to write to them a letter panning not only the experience but the inept way in which the manager/owner refused to resolve it.

And then I would follow through write those letters as well as send copies to the owners.[/QUOT


analise: I always knew you were really smart!! Excellent way to handle it!

The above idea is not a bad one.... only Im not sure "threaten" would be the best possible execution to the said strategy.

A threat means nothing unless you follow through. And follow through is what I would do.

But what exactly would be resolving the situation to your satisfaction? Bring you a free desert? Bottle of wine? Comp you the meal? Comp the entire restaurant? Throw the offending family out?

Management already seems to be in a difficult situation to begin with.

Effective and competent management would be able to handle that situation. Just from this example given, a free dessert or a bottle of wine isn't going to improve the ambiance. A good manager/owner also shouldn't have to give away the store in order to improve a situation. The problem is the high-screatching noise; to handle the situation is to stop this intrusive noise. A good manager isn't afraid to stop a problem customer from ruining the enjoyment of MANY customers.

I guess my question then is can management ask them to leave? Short of that, what are they to do?

As an aside, I do think it should be management - not the customer - that deals with this. Mostly because they are in the position of authority.

A good manager would ask the parents to remove the child from the restaurant until he/she calms down, and let the parents know that if the child cannot behave they would have to leave.

One time when I was in a nice restaurant in New Orleans there were 2 young boys (about 4 and 8 maybe) at the table next to us who were left unattened while the mother took her little girl to the restroom. The boys started yelling, running around the restaurant, bumped into my chair and the chairs of an older couple, and tried to touch food on plates that a waitress had on a stand alone tray while serving the table. The waitress and the other customers looked at the children with disgust but said nothing. I finally had enough and went over to the boys and told them to not touch the tray, sit down at their table and be quiet because they were behaving unacceptably and bothering everyone around them. As I was doing this the mother came back with the daughter and overheard me. She looked like she was going to yell at me but said that she had told them to sit quitely and that she was sorry, but then she started yelling at the boys for the rest of the dinner. Her yelling was almost as disruptive as her boys behavior but at this point I just blocked it out.

I think this is a very interesting thread. I have been very fortunate to have been taken to many fine dining establishments since I was about 2 years old. I was quiet, sat still, and never made a scene or fuss. To this day, I feel more comfortable in a fine dining room than in the local pub. I am always amazed to see ill-behaved children, and often more frequently, ill-behaved adults, in these restaurants.

In this situation, I think I would also be terribly annoyed. I would want to sm**k the little sh*t AND the parents. :mad: In this day of rights and freedoms, I think we have forgotten responsibilities and duties that go with them. Most certainly, the parents should have excused their child and given him a stern lecture on appropriate behaviour. The Management could have asked the parents do the same and/or leave.

But in the bigger picture, this became a night which became undone. Unless this happens at this restaurant frequently, I think it is better to look at it as just one of those nights. A myriad of other occurences could have the same effect -- a fire in the kitchen, an off night for the servers/kitchen, power outage -- these are all things beyond your own control. We should also be grateful that we are in a position to be able to enjoy a nice meal out. Finally, we ought to be happy, and perhaps praise the parents, of those children one see's at restaurants who are very well behaved.

What is the purpose of life? Everyone ponders this question from time to time, but few have an answer. I do:

The purpose of life is to NOT get your food spit in.

Perhaps I'm a bit more paranoid than others in this regard, but I basically assume that someone is spitting in my food unless I can prove otherwise. I've basically conditioned myself to eating spit, but still make grave efforts to minimize the amount that I consume.

Accordingly, I strongly disagree with the suggestions of "demanding" that the manager take care of things and "threatening" what you will do if it isn't corrected. That's a sure bet to have a loogie hocked into your risotto. Of course, much like complaining about the 13 minute wait at Burger King's drive through, once you have your food you can let them have it with both barrels.

On the other hand, not getting hit by some snotty kid's dad is not the purpose of life (following the double negative and it makes sense). So here's how I'd handle that situation.

(1) If the kid is under 3, I'd take every opportunity to give the parents "the look" fully realizing that this would have no effect other than to make me feel better. At this age, it really isn't the kid's fault - it's clearly the parents fault and you aren't going to change their behavior in a 2 hour span of your life. So, basically, I'd just do my best to not let it ruin my night - but I have an uncanning ability to block out kids. Perhaps it comes from all those flights in & out of Orlando.

(2) If the kid is over 3, then I'd handle it basically the same way I handle the "seat kicking" issue. First, give it a little bit of time to see if the parents actually do anything about it (and saying "stop that" 87 times does NOT constitute doing something about it). If they don't, (and I'll use the restaraunt example here, but easily adaptable to the seat kicker on the plane) I'd go and adress the child directly. Clearly the parents are clueless about proper etiquette and how to control their child, so addressing them would be pointless.

I figure at 3 & over, the kid should be able to carry on a half-way decent conversation and understand cause and effect and the like. So my first attempt would be to explain to the kid why his behavior is disruptive - something the parents probably haven't even considered doing. They just repeat "stop that, stop that, stop that" incessantly.

So I'd go over to the table and be like "Hey buddy, how ya doing?" Let him answer. "What are you eating tonight" Let him answer. "You here on vacation, what'd you do today, etc. etc. etc." After buidling a 30 second rapport, lay it on him: "You know, I'm sitting over there at that table and it seems like you're talking pretty loud (or running around, or whatever may be the problem). It's kind of hard for me and my wife to sit an enjoy our meal with you yelling. And we can't really hear any of the other tables around us, so it must be that you're talking a little bit louder than everybody else. Do you think you could try to be a little more quiet, maybe even whisper?"

Surprisingly, sometimes this actually works. Once you bring it to the kids attention that he's disturbing the people around him, he feels guilty (I guess) and prefers not to be such an annoyance. If you happen to run across a kid that responds to this, a few gentle reminders are typically necessary since kids seem to get overly excited pretty easily. In a restaraunt, just making eye contact and giving him the "shhhh" sign may do it.

********

Now, there are drawbacks to this approach too. One, you really make the parents feel like clods which may offend them, but sometimes the truth hurts. Two, you sometimes run across a kid who is just a smart ... with absolutely no discipline whatsoever. This kid is as likely to say Eff You as anything when you try to reason with him. Three (and this may be the worst, and is worse on a plane than in a restaraunt), the kid may be starved for attention and be so excited about "making a new friend" (after all, you actually talked to him) that you'll never get rid of him. I have actually had this happen to me on flights where I end up hearing the kid's entire life story and answering the "why" question 800 times between Orlando and Atlanta. Generally, though, if that happens, I figure the 2 hours of torment I'm through is worth it if it makes some neglected kid feel good about himself for a day.

********

Just to make a long post longer, this reminds me of a funny story.

We were on a flight recently and ended up sharing our row with an unaccompanied minor (9 year old boy). When the flight started, he was very well behaved an seemed rather mature. There was a family sitting behind us. Mom & 2 boys (maybe 3 & 7) directly behind us with Dad across the aisle. Well the 3 year old kept kicking this kid's (the unaccompanied minor) seat and it was bugging the hell out of him. About every 5 minutes he'd turn around and yell at the kid to stop kicking his seat. The parents, of course, were oblivious to the fact that their little darling could do anything wrong.

Well, literally after about an hour of this and 20+ times of the kid yelling at the 3 year old, he (the unaccompanied minor) reached behind his seat and grabbed the kids foot and wouldn't let go. The older brother (7 year old) quickly got into the action and it eventually escalated into an "enthusiastic" kick & grab fight. It really got pretty out of hand.

Well, the parents of the kids behind us basically completely ignored it for about a half hour, but then finally had the kids switch places with the parents to separate the boys a little bit. I was laughing the whole time because I'm sure these parents behind us were wondering why we were saying nothing to the kid sitting next to us. Surely they assumed he was our kid. (I did, actually, at one point suggest that he settle down a little bit, and that seemed to do the trick). But I didn't give a crap. They're dang kid had been kicking the seat for an hour and I thought it was OK if the unaccomanied minor wanted to cause a bit of a scene.

I didn't get a chance to get a look on their faces when we got up after the flight and left "our child" on the plane when we left. But I bet they felt like a couple of clods - or maybe they were just clueless.

I have taken my son to nice restaurants since he was little. When he did act up I would take him outside so I didn't bother anyone else. I use to tell my son in nice restaurants and in FC cabin. "Brandon, do you see any other kids here?" He would say no. I would say, "well kids are not suppose to be here but they are letting you come here but you must behave like an adult." Ok it was a fib but it worked

I recently went to a nice restaurant and 2 minutes after being sat a family was sat next to us with a LOUD baby and a LOUD 2-3 year old. I walked over to my server and said that I apoligize about this but I really was looking forward to a nice quiet dinner and would it be possible to be moved to another table. He said he understood and moved us across the room. I thanked him again. Dinner was great! The servers are very understanding. TRUST me when I say that servers are NOT happy when screaming kids are in the restaurant because it often cost them money but gratuities that they lose by nearby guests who have an unpleasant meal due to the commotion.

You need to teach a course to these clueless part-time parents about responsible parenthood. :)

I imagine those who think that their precious bundles of joy can cause such havoc are probably those wealthy enough to shove their kids on nannies for most of their growing up period because they have no time or desire to raise them properly.

The dining room of the Chalfonte Hotel, in Cape May NJ. Children under 9 must eat in the separate (supervised) children's dining room.

Some parents like this (essentially you get free babysitting during dinner), others are horrified.