The total of all excellent restaurants of comparable Michelin quality in the USA will far exceed the total of excellent restaurants of Michelin level in Europe. We can argue about service, since that is likely the biggest variable between European and American restaurants which is most easily open to perspective--but even that difference has narrowed as Michelin now includes a wider variety of "restaurant styles" even in Europe.

I am including 1 and 2 star Michelin restaurants for purposes of this discussion. I am not sure if you're making the same distinction or if you are only discussing the "top Michelin restaurants" as being 3 star. It is not uncommon on these threads for people to actually be in agreement but not realize it because they are making assumptions that are different!

If you are only counting 3 star restaurants, then I agree that Europe has an advantage, and that France has an even bigger advantage. Of course, Michelin was started in France and has a bias towards a French manner of doing things IMO. Michelin puts more emphasis on a degree of formality in service that is inherently less American. That IMO contributed to the demise of the Michelin guides in Los Angeles (one of the most relaxed major cities in the world) and Las Vegas.

If we are considering Michelin 1, 2, and 3 star restaurants, then I disagree that Europe or France wins in a contest with the US. If Michelin actually rated restaurants throughout the US, the US would swamp Europe. There is no single country in the world with more restaurants representing the many varied types of ethnic cuisines at the highest levels than the US. There would a larger number of American 1 and 2 star restaurants compared to Europe if all the major US cities were included...and even larger number if the small resort/university towns that don't match up with a major city were included.

Of course, the US is a much larger country than France or any in Europe--so per capita I'm sure all of the European countries would kill the US! But in absolute number, the US would win hands down.

This is the crux of the question...and one of the reasons that outside Europe and some of the biggest cities, Michelin has failed to find traction (and therefore has stopped rating those cities and beyond).

We all can agree that excellent food is part of the equation. Creativity and novelty in method/approach is also part of that equation, I think you'd agree. And service would be the final element of the equation. Obviously, all are subjective.

It is in service that we likely find the most stark differences between Old World (Europe) and New (everywhere else). This is likely why you find dining in Europe to be so much better and why I find dining in Europe to NOT be so much better.

I find European fine dining to be inherently more European...and I find American fine dining to be inherently more American. The service standard can be equally high for both, but there still are differences in style. Michelin doesn't respect the differences; it expects and rewards most those that approach only the French standard. In some cases outside of Europe, it does permit a little flexibility--but not much.

I suspect this is why Noma has only 2 stars despite its obviously incredible meal quality and creativity. Noma just isn't as formal or "French" in many ways as most of its top European counterparts--and Michelin therefore sees it as unworthy of 3 stars. I, however, disagree vehemently. Service at Noma was easily the equal to that at Guy Savoy...but with less that is inherently French. Noma service was Danish with French flair. Guy Savoy was inherently French.

The same can be said for American restaurants--which obviously are less French! But that in no way defines their service as somehow inferior to that of the best French restaurants. Therein lies the biggest challenge with Michelin ratings and the reason why they haven't been able to permeate markets that don't blindly accept the French standard as being superior.

As I said before, Michelin is to fine dining as France is to wine.

The French have great wines...but the French also think they have the best of all of the world's wine. It has been a tough lesson for the French to discover in blind tastings that there are many regions and producers throughout many regions of the world that can compete with or surpass in blind tasting evaluations almost every region in France (except for Burgundy; New Zealand comes closest for reds, and Central California/Sonoma have a few that come close for whites, but no region in the world can truly match Burgundy insofar as I've yet discovered!)

The French similarly have great dining...but the French standard, especially with service, is being applied as superior to all other styles. Just as we've discovered amazing Japanese and Italian and Peruvian cuisine that is as exciting to the palate as French food can be, it seems that Michelin has not learned that Japanese or American or Danish or Peruvian styles of high end service can be just as exciting IMO.

Few corrections:
- Caprice is only a 2 michelin stars for few years and this is still overrated ( but the cheese is nice and the view as well)
- One of the two tasting menu at Bernardin is only the regular menu plus one dish (price is similar anyway) so it's just marketing ... . after a few times you know what you prefer and you can choose but a tasting menu is usually a good introduction to the chef leftover , sorry chef cuisine.
If you want to try seafood, La Palme d'or in Cannes is a different league (despite the chef has an "interesting" personnality)
- Amber : yes they're able to source some white truffles, can't remember if they're from alba or from other parts of Italy .
Make me think of "Les Tablettes" where the chef put truffle on numerous dishes to make it feel "luxury" but the taste is not there (not sure if he still do that)
- Yes Michelin guide does adapt to local markets,
---- otherwise NONE of the NY 3 stars restaurants will have 3 stars (maybe Brooklyn .. as I have not been there).
---- otherwise NONE of the Japan / NY / HK restaurants counter style restaurants will have 2 or 3 stars in France. The only exception in France is Robuchon because it's Mr Robuchon.

Yes it's great to exchange ideas and to disagree based on real experience in several countries .....

OK, let's do it!

Caprice was downgraded from 3 to 2 stars. I got the date wrong for our visit. We dined in Jan 2013. It was downgraded later that year. http://blogs.wsj.com/scene/2013/12/0...n-restaurants/

OK...but not sure what that has to do with its Michelin 3 stars.

If I'm ever in Cannes, I'll consider that. Thought Cannes is not one of those destinations I'm likely to visit soon. Not my kinda scene.

Regardless, it was a divine meal with superb food, creative combinations, and extraordinary wine pairings...and spectacular service.

I'd say Michelin has adapted in a few places in a few circumstances. But I don't believe they've adapted much at all--those are all restaurants with more French style service than others. I present Noma to you as evidence that Michelin only goes so far...and IMO isn't remotely far enough. The Michelin guide is entitled to whatever biases it wants...but too much bias will simply cause more diners (myself included) to look beyond Michelin when they don't get the job done.

The newer diners are not like the Michelin diners of old...even in Europe. There's a reason there now are Michelin 2-3 star restaurants (even in Europe, and even in Paris) which don't require a jacket, whereas that was a rarity only a decade ago. The younger customer base is more casual, and Michelin fine dining has had to adapt a bit. But not enough. The fact that there is no dress code at Noma must infuriate Michelin raters because it dares that in Europe...but even I got away with no jacket at Guy Savoy and Alinea (but made my request and was confirmed in advance).

you're correct
silly but fun so far

Except few exceptions, jacquet is not required in michelin star restaurants.

Another fan of Lameloise, I see.

Alain Ducasse at the Dorchester required it - I had to buy a jacket while I was in London because I didn't bring one, and they refused to accommodate when I called to ask. Couldn't believe I went through that since the dishes were boring, uninspired and not even executed very well.

The staff at Noma pointed out on the night that I was there, that there were 4 tables of students there that night! :eek: Including my party, there were a total of 19 students there that night (all of us presumably studying here in Copenhagen on exchange), which is unheard of for a 2* restaurant.

I only saw a solitary table of 3 wear jackets that night, and even then it was with jeans. I personally enjoyed the meal much more because I could wear whatever the hell I felt like was comfortable.

Sorry to hear that.
The few restaurants which require a jacket gave me one (I'm thinking of the US and France, can't remember if I face this situation in the UK ). Unfortunately it was only for the time of the dinner as some of the jackets were nice:D

Requiring a jacket and don't provide them is not very "michelin stars" oriented.

I could be wrong but believe Robuchon Vegas require a jacket, most guests had one, I never had one there.

I remember once at the GV a waiter almost shouting at a guest 10 meters away that a jacket is required in the restaurant......

I refer to Michelin 3 star and some 2 star restaurants. For Michelin 3 star restaurants, especially in the big cities in Europe/Asia, there are far more that DO require a jacket than do not. For Michelin 2 star restaurants in the same regions, there are a substantial number that do, as well. Guy Savoy, L'Arpege, Epicure, Le Meurice, Le Cinq, etc in Paris alone all require jackets for gentlemen.

Even many 1 Michelin star restaurants in Europe require jackets in season. We will be going to Venice in Oct 2016, and 1 star MET, Quadri, and Osteria da Florie all require jackets at dinner in the fall/winter.

My Danish friends told me, upon hearing my query about dress code/jacket requirements at Noma/Geranium, that in DK you would be allowed to wear a bikini if you pay the bill. I knew I was in love.

I couldn't agree more, and I loved Noma (and Geranium). I also loved The Ledbury in London, which also doesn't require a jacket--surprising in more formal London.

Of course, in California, only the French Laundry still requires a jacket of the 3 star Michelin restaurants--one reason I am not a fan. Saison, Benu, Manresa, and Meadowood steadfastly do not have jacket requirements...which is perfectly appropriate for more relaxed California.

Meadowood actually had a tag line on their website: "If denim is your preference, dark is ours." I knew I'd love it. And we naturally had a fabulous dinner and service experience there--and were able to joke around with the staff like we often enjoy doing. We actually laughed about another table with gentlemen all wearing jackets--all of which were ill-fitting and looking like they cost about $25 off the rack.

Wearing a jacket in no way ensures that a man is well-dressed...something that old-school fine dining restaurants (most often ranked in the 2-3 Michelin star milieu) would do well to acknowledge.

Not correct (once again :D) Guy Savoy does not REQUIRE a jacket
Correct and uptodate information is key

BTW what Asia restaurants will require a jacket TODAY ?? (not 5 years ago) None ??,

I agree (finally) that a jacket doesn't always mean well dressed. Some of the jackets you can see are "fun" but it's still a jacket

My original statement:

First, I was last at Guy Savoy in late 2014 and it required a jacket; I had to email to get permission in advance to not wear a jacket. If that has since changed, my apologies.

Second, ignoring that L'Arpege, Epicure, Le Meurice, Le Cinq, not to mention Alleno, L'Ambroisie, and Le Pré Catelan, all in Paris (major city) all require jackets for men does not help your case.

Third, Per Se, Jean-Georges, Le Bernardin (main dining room), Daniel (now 2 star), and Chef's Table at Brooklyn Fare in New York City (major city) all require jackets for men.

Fourth, Alinea in Chicago (major city) requires jackets for men.

Fifth, Louis XV in Monaco requires jackets for men.

That also doesn't even consider the many 1 and 2 star Michelin restaurants--again in the major cities--that similarly require jackets for men. There are many. I mentioned that 4 of the 5 Michelin 1 star restaurants in Venice (major city) all require jackets for men during fall/winter, for example.

There is no question that there is far more likelihood in major cities in Europe, especially France and Italy, for a jacket requirement than anywhere else in the world. That is true of Michelin restaurants as much as luxury resort signature dining restaurants. It is getting less frequent, and for that I am ecstatic. But the jacket requirement still exists in plenty of cases in Europe, and even in a few "big business" American cities.

When we went to Caprice in 2013, there was a jacket requirement. If that has changed since, then my apologies. Amber had no such requirement.

I had a really interesting discussion about this whole dress issue with another diner and the crew at 2-star Studio at the Standard (by Torsten Vildgaard, who used to be sous chef at Noma) today. We all concluded that the more laidback casual, yet professional style is really the best approach at restaurants of this calibre because the star of the show is really the food and not how fancy you look. ^

Lunch today was even better than the last time I came here 6 weeks ago, there were only 8 patrons in total for lunch service. The squid and venison dishes were so well thought out and perfect. Both the raw oyster "snack" and foie gras were simply orgasmic. Left with the "wow" factor, which I didn't expect since my last visit was only 6 weeks ago (and I had just went to Noma last week.) Well deserving of the 2* it has, and it's a bloody shame Michelin seems to reluctant to award a 3* to deserving restaurants in Copenhagen, since I would easily place Studio, Noma and Geranium there.

Not as adventurous or raw innovation like Noma, but a very solid bet for a creative, well-executed and delicious meal, and also very reasonably priced at about $100 USD.

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IIRC no jacket at jean george (main restaurant)
No jacket at daniel lounge

in the past couple years,on our two visits to japan, my wife and i have had lunch or dinner in over 50 Michelin starred restaurants in tokyo or kyoto or osaka. some in private rooms, some at the counter. never a request for jacket.

almost all wanted one day advance notice(to procure fresh foods)

we were almost always the only caucasians in the restaurant. the table guests almost always engaged us in conversation as they wondered how we found the place, and how we liked it. there was a lot of excellent english available, as my wife and i do not speak japanese.

I'm always surprised by the angst over jackets here on Flyertalk. Personally I'm completely unaware of these restaurant dress policies because I would never consider going to a high end city restaurant without a jacket.

To each, their own.

I am usually warm even in long sleeves, so wearing a jacket can be incredibly uncomfortable for me--since most restaurants are at a temperature that is great for most people but too warm for me.

I'm gay and love to dress up...so I desperately wish I could wear a jacket, since they offer such a great chance to snazz up an outfit. But it's not meant to be for me, alas. Comfort must trump a jacket requirement for me, even being well dressed otherwise.

We also live in California...where being more relaxed and casual is a normal part of the culture, even at almost all of the finest of restaurants. We find other ways to be well-dressed in lieu of a jacket. The jacket requirement is a class standard from a time long gone to us...and to me. But that definitely is not the mantra in many places in Paris, Milan, Rome, Venice, or even New York.

Same with me for dinner, but not for Lunch

OK, I wear a Jacket every day, so nothing special:D

Daniel at Dinner is very elegant in the main restaurant, but what´s not my Cup of tea most men without tie. If I wear a jacket (i.e. suit) I normally wear a tie. At Jean George I wore a black suit! What a great experience to be the only one! One guy with shorts, the other one with jeans.....

and.... no bikini , that's shocking :D:D

I think all can agree that being well dressed is an appropriate standard for an evening of fine dining for dinner...and that shorts do not qualify. Denim slacks/trousers should be appropriate depending on the rest of the outfit; after all, there are jeans that can cost more than an entire suit, and there is nothing necessarily inferior about denim unless one is a clothing fabric snob. My shoes alone can cost more than another diner's entire outfit, just as another diner's jacket or suit can be horribly ill-fitting and therefore be considered more poorly dressed than someone in nice jeans, a great shirt and nice shoes.

My belief is that too many old-fashioned straight men (and their women) falsely believe that wearing a jacket or suit inherently make one well dressed, even when the jacket or suit fits poorly or are of low quality. It's easier to say jacket required to conform people to a certain standard, but it isn't necessarily better dressed. Conforming to a standard is also, thankfully, becoming less and less popular or expected for dress. Conformity isn't as celebrated in our modern societies as it once was, and I'd say that's a great thing.

As someone who is always warm I've always felt it was unfair that I could be dressed up in a sleeveless dress but a man has to wear a jacket.

No objection - even some of my ties cost more than entire suits - but that´s not the Point, some very expensive clothes look awful. Also often no Jacket is better than this Jacket....

I have been to Fat Duck, Aperge, French Laundry , Per Se, Daniel, Jean Georges !

True dat! Of course, I have yet to find a Michelin restaurant that requires a tie. At least that artifact of the old days has gone the way of the do-do. However, there are many Michelin restaurants that still require a jacket, as I've previously demonstrated.

Miam, Miam nice selection.
Which did you prefer ?
L'arpege of course ? Hhahaha

was french laundry worth it?

That question is best discussed in one of the several extant threads in the San Francisco forum: http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/san-francisco-468/

cblais
Co-Moderator, Dining Buzz

In the last year

Quince in SFO
Daniel in NYC
Ceil Bleu in Amsterdam
Providence in LAX

Had dinner in late December at Tru in Chicago. The service was great, but the food was average at best. Lots of misses on the menu, with only 1 dish (out of 7) being memorable. Price tag was $158/person, so my wife and I won't be going back.

I've eaten lunch there many times during wine auctions, and it's very clear that their lunch menu execution far exceeds their dinner menu execution. Sadly, this experience at Tru seems to be getting all too common.

In 2015, I had the following 3* restaurants
In chronological order

1. Eleven Madison Park. I took a red eye to JFK, spent the day in NYC, went to EMP for dinner. Went home the next morning. I really flew to NYC for this restaurant. It was in my top 5 of all time.

2. Esaki in Tokyo. This is a good place to try true Japanese kaiseki. Some dishes were outstanding, but overall, I don't think it's worthy of the 3*. Maybe 2*.

3. Quintessence in Tokyo. This is a true 3* star. Better French food here than 3* in France. I would fly to Tokyo just for Quintessence.

4. Koryu in Osaka. Another true 3* star for me. I would fly to Osaka for Koryu. Kaiseki at its best.

5. Taian in Osaka. Similar to Esaki. Some dishes were impressive, but more 2* than 3*.

6. Fujiya 1935. I'm confused about this place. I think the spanish influence messed it up a little. I do like some of the dishes, but the wine pairing was not up to par for a restaurant this caliber. A solid 2*.

7. L'arpege. This was the most anticipated restaurant of 2015 for me and it was the biggest let down. I felt like I was waterboarded with beet. How many beet dishes can the chef send out? I think it was like 7. I think 2* is very generous here.

8. Le Bernardin. Also flew to JFK for one night for this. I've been here twice before and it's one of my favorite restaurants. A solid 3*.

I was at L'arpege this past Sept and I definitely did not wear a jacket. I think only about half of the patrons wore jackets.

Le Bernardin lent me a jacket that could fit 2 of me. Cyrus lent me jacket & khaki pants because I walked in in shorts. :cool:

Going to Barcelona in March. Staying in Las Ramblas area. Interested in either Moments or Lasarte. Not a big fan of fish, if that matters. Any thoughts and/or recommendations?

And if you aren´t a gentleman, more a lubber?

That is surprising - I ate there in early spring 2013 (in March), and I thought Tru blew away the other dinner we had in town (which was the vaunted Alinea - overrated IMO). Presentation was gorgeous, every course was so good, and it has one of my all-time dishes - black-truffle infused foie gras flan. I haven't been back to Chitown since, but this is one of the rare places where I would probably go back to somewhere I've eaten before, just because it was so good.

My fiancee and I will be doing our honeymoon in London and Paris in October. We have 4 nights in London and 3 in Paris. I'm willing to spend more on food because my flight and hotel(s) were purchased on points.

I won't say that we're foodies, but we enjoy unique experiences that Michelin star restaurants often provide, which certainly isn't present in Florida. However, we are really unsure of where to go despite countless hours of research. I will say that the London restaurants have nice lunch prix fixe to offset some of the premium you pay for the stars. We do have other places like Gillrays and Julie's based on family and friends recommendations.

My plans so far, but I am here for suggestions based on previous experiences:

London
Gordon Ramsay - lunch
Dinner by Heston - dinner
Adam Handling - lunch (we're staying at St. Ermin's)

Is Alain Ducasse worth a trip for lunch?

Paris
Guy Savoy - not sure whether dinner or lunch

There are so many restaurants that I haven't been able to narrow down my choices yet. We're staying at the Renaissance Vendome and would like something relatively close.

We already discussed it at the best restaurant thread- the plan looks OK. Not really my choices, but it's your decision. Woudn't go to Alain Ducasse for Lunch. Food isn't the star here, it's the experience. I doubt it's as glamorous at Lunch as it is at Dinner.

P.s. Yes you save a lot at Lunch, but you loose a lot of the day. Also I normally take neverless the Tasting.

I'm spending 4 nights at Madrid and 4 nights in Barcelona this March. There are 3 restaurants I'd really love to try.
DiverXO in Madrid
El Celler de Can Roca in Girona, close enough to Barcelona
Tickets in Barcelona

DiverXO has no availability, not even on the waitlist my time there.
El Celler is all booked out for the year, but I added myself to the waitlist.
Tickets releases 2 months at a time and I missed out. There's no formal waiting list available but I emailed the restaurant to see if they can waitlist me. No reply from them.
I also called AMEX to try to get me a reservation for El Celler and Tickets.

Any advice on how I can get a table at these places?

Good luck on El Celler - I'm on the waitlist for a week in May. If there is a secret way to get a table I'd love to know. I tried to pull some local strings - epic fail.

Yeah, I thought we beat this completely to death in the other thread.

Definitively

Anybody been to Victor's Gourmet Restaurant (3 star) on the Luxembourg/Germany border? Thinking about heading down there next month

I was there several times, but not during the last 1-1.5 years. Was always excellent !
Friends were there recently (2-3 months ago), they too found it was excellent.