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Originally Posted by Badenoch
(Post 24399337)
As for the people who do worry, if the kitchen in your own home were inspected to the same standard as a restaurant how would it be rated? Be honest.
I'm sure I couldn't pass all the commercial requirements. There's no lid on the wine glass I drink from while I'm preparing a meal, for example. But I wash my hands in soap and hot water frequently and always after touching raw meats. There is no sign of insects in my home or kitchen. There is no mold in my icemaker. And hot foods are kept hot and cold foods are kept cold. Hot foods are chilled quickly. There are no insecticides or household cleaners kept in the same cabinets next to foods. All of these things I have read in inspections and they bother me. There are restaurants that pass inspections with flying colors. The bar and grill on the corner closest to my house is one of those. Having become familiar with the chef/owner, I know this is not a fluke or the result of payola. It is pride in doing the job right and knowledge that sick customers don't come back. |
A popular Chicago restaurant just had its 10th shut down in 8 years (or 8th in 10 years). It's prompted a thread about restaurant inspections on my favorite local food board. Several people who work in the industry have weighed in and linked to a great article on the inspection process. While it's Chicago specific, I'm sure that many cities have similar systems. (Chicago does not yet require restaurants to post scores prominently. However, our inspection database is online.)
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You can also try to hide your failures... :D
http://barfblog.com/wp-content/uploa...urant-sign.jpg http://www.foodpolitics.com/wp-conte...s/WSJ_Best.jpg |
Originally Posted by pseudoswede
(Post 24414804)
You can also try to hide your failures... :D
http://barfblog.com/wp-content/uploa...urant-sign.jpg http://www.foodpolitics.com/wp-conte...s/WSJ_Best.jpg |
I will definitely take notice of a score and weigh my experience against the score. I have walked out of a couple of places that I noticed the low score and got bad juju just from entering the place.
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In DC full health inspections are posted online in extraordinary detail. A great tool if one wants to swing a group dinner away from a specific place. :D
But true, a bit of a bummer to read about the infractions of my favorite places. |
North Carolina has the A/B/C rating inside the restaurant (as well as the percentage grade on the certificate); South Carolina is like California and NYC and you just have to have the letter grade at the door
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I'm surprised there is not a website (at least that I've been able to find) that aggregates all the state/county inspection results in one easy place (like, e.g., a number of sites that collate info about states' drivers' licensing regulations).
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We've had one in the UK for some time both as an app and a web site
http://www.scoresonthedoors.org.uk/ |
Originally Posted by cblaisd
(Post 24471893)
I'm surprised there is not a website (at least that I've been able to find) that aggregates all the state/county inspection results in one easy place (like, e.g., a number of sites that collate info about states' drivers' licensing regulations).
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I've worked in restaurants, and for a time conducted internal audits (same criteria as external inspectors, plus additional criteria) for sister restaurants. I generally don't look at health inspection grades, figuring if they are open, it can't be that bad (and, frankly, given I eat some street food from highly dodgy locations, I can't be too precious!)
Every single friends' kitchen I can think of would fail a commercial inspection, but I still eat in their homes. No separate hand washing sink in the kitchen area (sorry, bathrooms don't count), no thermometer in the fridge and freezer (mine is the only one I can think of that does), no separate colour chopping boards for raw meat, cooked meat, fish, dairy, veggies etc. (I do actually have meat and non meat boards, but quite happily cut cheese and tomatoes on the same one). I store eggs on the top shelf of my fridge (they have to be on the bottom in a restaurant), I don't date label everything I open (say, a jar of salsa or mayo) and simply rely on my own recollection as to how old it might be. I have glasses in a cupboard above my prep counter, which would cause a health inspector to have a coronary, I don't clean the door seals on my microwave daily. I use both a bristle brush and a scrubby sponge to wash my dishes, and I rinse my produce under the tap, instead of soaking it in a sanitizing chemical. Yes, I think it is important to have standards for a restaurant, and some are non negotiable (servers washing their hands after using the rest room), others I give a pass to (on an internal audit I once had to mark a kitchen down because a sole tomato in the fridge did not have a date label on it). Then again, I am also a firm believer in the 5 second rule when I drop my food on the floor :D |
Originally Posted by emma69
(Post 24484300)
I've worked in restaurants, and for a time conducted internal audits (same criteria as external inspectors, plus additional criteria) for sister restaurants. I generally don't look at health inspection grades, figuring if they are open, it can't be that bad (and, frankly, given I eat some street food from highly dodgy locations, I can't be too precious!)
Every single friends' kitchen I can think of would fail a commercial inspection, but I still eat in their homes. No separate hand washing sink in the kitchen area (sorry, bathrooms don't count), no thermometer in the fridge and freezer (mine is the only one I can think of that does), no separate colour chopping boards for raw meat, cooked meat, fish, dairy, veggies etc. (I do actually have meat and non meat boards, but quite happily cut cheese and tomatoes on the same one). I store eggs on the top shelf of my fridge (they have to be on the bottom in a restaurant), I don't date label everything I open (say, a jar of salsa or mayo) and simply rely on my own recollection as to how old it might be. I have glasses in a cupboard above my prep counter, which would cause a health inspector to have a coronary, I don't clean the door seals on my microwave daily. I use both a bristle brush and a scrubby sponge to wash my dishes, and I rinse my produce under the tap, instead of soaking it in a sanitizing chemical. Yes, I think it is important to have standards for a restaurant, and some are non negotiable (servers washing their hands after using the rest room), others I give a pass to (on an internal audit I once had to mark a kitchen down because a sole tomato in the fridge did not have a date label on it). Then again, I am also a firm believer in the 5 second rule when I drop my food on the floor :D Your basic logic defeats me completely. The standards for commercial kitchens that you neither see and are not run by trusted friends but instead run by strangers, sometimes from countries with very low inherent hygiene standards and that have the propensity to harm a great many people every day should obviously be different from your friends homes whom presumably you trust and whose kitchens you see. It's interesting in the UK for example how many Asian restaurants and takeaways have a higher percentage of low hygiene ratings. Why make the comparison? What is the point? One of the major benefits of a scores on the doors programme is that it makes hygiene important to food operations and anything that does that is a good thing. |
Originally Posted by uk1
(Post 24484367)
Your basic logic defeats me completely.
The standards for commercial kitchens that you neither see and are not run by trusted friends but instead run by strangers, sometimes from countries with very low inherent hygiene standards and that have the propensity to harm a great many people every day should obviously be different from your friends homes whom presumably you trust and whose kitchens you see. It's interesting in the UK for example how many Asian restaurants and takeaways have a higher percentage of low hygiene ratings. Why make the comparison? What is the point? One of the major benefits of a scores on the doors programme is that it makes hygiene important to food operations and anything that does that is a good thing. I'm saying that I eat at restaurants, food trucks, friends' kitchens, without paying much attention to the hygiene levels for any of them. I may love my friends dearly, but on occasion I'd swear they were trying to kill people so don't necessarily trust them on a food safety level (trying to pop the cooked bbq food back on the same tray they brought the raw food out on, until I intervened, for example) but still eat at their houses, trusting that my fairly robust immune system will survive. Same with restaurants in the UK, if they are open, then chances are I will be fine, they will not allow a premises that they consider dangerously unsafe to continue operating. Absolutely takeaways are normally low down the list (you also find a lot of 'old men local pubs' pretty far down the list too) because their staff are not professionally trained for the most part (no legal requirement in the UK for them to even do the basic food handling certificate, which, personally, I do think should be mandatory and would do a lot more for food safety in the UK than posting scores does). It would be interesting to see what the program does for businesses financially, but I suspect it won't change things considerably (I wouldn't look up my local Domino's score before deciding whether to order from them or Pizza Hut, and I am not sure many others would). A low score does not necessarily mean you are going to get sick. I had a quick look at the scores for places I eat at on a regular basis when I am back home in the UK. I was pleasantly surprised that my regular Indian takeaway had a score of 5, as did the fish and chip shop I often go to. Not a great surprise, but one of the 'post-pub' takeaways that always has a line out of the door on a Friday and Saturday night scored a 1 - it's only open late at night a few times a week (I'd guess around 10pm-3am without checking), the staff don't speak English, so I am putting money on them not keeping logs, dating and rotating food correctly, the actual set up of the very small space would almost certainly score poorly. I am guessing that on any given inspection night, they would get very low marks for their refrigeration - they are simply so busy they pull things out of the fridge and leave them on the side to expedite service. The floor would be disgustingly dirty during the middle of a shift, because no one is squeezing in to try and mop / sweep dropped food during the rush. Hot food ( kebab meat, etc.) is likely not kept at a high enough hold temperature (sitting on a tray once it has been removed from the grill for example), but the place is so busy, food is moving through so quickly, nothing is getting to dangerous temperature levels sitting on the side. No, it doesn't get good marks, but do I think, from personal experience it is likely to cause food poisoning issues, no - I will still pop in for my chips in a naan next time I am in town. To that extent, 'scores on the doors' doesn't make the food businesses any safer to eat at IMO - there have been health inspections for years, it is just that they have decided to post rankings now so people can see the difference between a place that prides itself on food safety, and those who scrape through. The ones that would have been shut down before still are, and the ones that are open are considered by the inspectors to be adequate enough not to be a danger to the public. |
Originally Posted by emma69
(Post 24496429)
My point was that health scores on an open restaurant don't mean very much to me at all.
I'm saying that I eat at restaurants, food trucks, friends' kitchens, without paying much attention to the hygiene levels for any of them. I may love my friends dearly, but on occasion I'd swear they were trying to kill people so don't necessarily trust them on a food safety level (trying to pop the cooked bbq food back on the same tray they brought the raw food out on, until I intervened, for example) but still eat at their houses, trusting that my fairly robust immune system will survive. Same with restaurants in the UK, if they are open, then chances are I will be fine, they will not allow a premises that they consider dangerously unsafe to continue operating. Absolutely takeaways are normally low down the list (you also find a lot of 'old men local pubs' pretty far down the liŷst too) because their staff are not professionally trained for the most part (no legal requirement in the UK for them to even do the basic food handling certificate, which, personally, I do think should be mandatory and would do a lot more for food safety in the UK than posting scores does). It would be interesting to see what the program does for businesses financially, but I suspect it won't change things considerably (I wouldn't look up my local Domino's score before deciding whether to order from them or Pizza Hut, and I am not sure many others would). A low score does not necessarily mean you are going to get sick. I had a quick look at the scores for places I eat at on a regular basis when I am back home in the UK. I was pleasantly surprised that my regular Indian takeaway had a score of 5, as did the fish and chip shop I often go to. Not a great surprise, but one of the 'post-pub' takeaways that always has a line out of the door on a Friday and Saturday night scored a 1 - it's only open late at night a few times a week (I'd guess around 10pm-3am without checking), the staff don't speak English, so I am putting money on them not keeping logs, dating and rotating food correctly, the actual set up of the very small space would almost certainly score poorly. I am guessing that on any given inspection night, they would get very low marks for their refrigeration - they are simply so busy they pull things out of the fridge and leave them on the side to expedite service. The floor would be disgustingly dirty during the middle of a shift, because no one is squeezing in to try and mop / sweep dropped food during the rush. Hot food ( kebab meat, etc.) is likely not kept at a high enough hold temperature (sitting on a tray once it has been removed from the grill for example), but the place is so busy, food is moving through so quickly, nothing is getting to dangerous temperature levels sitting on the side. No, it doesn't get good marks, but do I think, from personal experience it is likely to cause food poisoning issues, no - I will still pop in for my chips in a naan next time I am in town. To that extent, 'scores on the doors' doesn't make the food businesses any safer to eat at IMO - there have been health inspections for years, it is just that they have decided to post rankings now so people can see the difference between a place that prides itself on food safety, and those who scrape through. The ones that would have been shut down before still are, and the ones that are open are considered by the inspectors to be adequate enough not to be a danger to the public. Actually, I think many people are concerned about how filthy or clean kitchens are and how much they can rely on their owners. Luckily this scheme incentivates poor unrelaible owners that before the scheme had no real reputational risks. This scheme is a great part of informing customers many will make choices tsking this into account. As you know unsafe kitchens can remain open if the inspector believes a promise to put things right immediately. Each to their own. More about hygiene ratings The food safety officer inspecting a business checks how well the business is meeting the law by looking at how hygienically the food is handled – how it is prepared, cooked, re-heated, cooled and stored the condition of the structure of the buildings – the cleanliness, layout, lighting, ventilation and other facilities how the business manages and records what it does to make sure food is safe. The rating given shows how well the business is doing overall but also takes account of the element or elements most in need of improving (see ‘How is a hygiene rating worked out?’ above) and also the level of risk to people’s health that these issues pose. This is because some businesses will do well in some areas and less well in others but each of the three elements checked is essential for making sure that food hygiene standards meet requirements and the food served or sold to you is safe to eat. To get the top rating of ‘5’, businesses must do well in all three elements. Those with ratings of ‘0’ are very likely to be performing poorly in all three elements and are likely to have a history of serious problems. There may, for example, be a lack of sufficient cleaning and disinfection, and there may not be a good enough system of management in place to check and record what the business does to make sure the food is safe. Businesses given ratings of ‘0’ or ‘1’ must make urgent or major improvements to hygiene standards. The local authority food safety officer will use a number of enforcement tools as well as giving advice and guidance to make sure these improvements are made. The food safety officer will also tell the business how quickly these improvements must be made and this will depend on the type of issue that needs to be addressed. The Food Hygiene Rating Scheme means that people can choose instead to eat out or buy food at places with higher ratings and businesses with low ratings are in danger of losing customers and so will be encouraged to improve standards more quickly and to maintain these in the future. If the officer finds that a business’s hygiene standards are very poor and there is an imminent risk to health – this means food is not safe to eat – the officer must take action to make sure that consumers are protected. This could mean prohibiting part of an operation or closing the business down. |
Generally, I would agree with uk1 that more information is a good thing. However, I'm with emma69 in that I've lived my life trusting that, if a restaurant is permitted to remain open, then I should be ok. Touch wood, and hoping not to tempt fate (I'm not eating at a restaurant for the next week....), I have not had food poisoning yet, except on United Airlines.
As I see it, the problem with bureaucratic systems is that they are very much a "one size fits all" approach and they look at lots of things which are not strictly necessary. Assuming that they will (and they should) close down a restaurant that was dangerous, then one must assume that you are safe in a restaurant with a score of 1 as much as with a score of 5. |
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