A generous tip, I'm sure she appreciated it greatly.

In higher priced establishments I expect a higher level of service and the service level that justified a 20% tip in my local taco joint might not hack it at some upscale eatery. TBS, I still don't get why a $100 tip on a $500 bill for service that didn't go above and beyond would be considered insufficient. Perhaps he was confused about the bill or having a really bad day or couldn't believe that you were using cash instead of a miles earning CC. ;) I guess we'll never know but, in any case, his attitude could have used some adjustment. Had I seen such a change in disposition I might have asked if there was some problem and had his reaction to the tip amount been a bit more overt and/or the least bit derisive I would have spoken to the manager.

We only went to the hotel restaurant as we were tired and jet lagged and couldn't be bothered finding anywhere cheaper. Being high summer it was also too hot (even at that altitude) for us to want to go further. We were told by the reception staff that it was pretty quiet there as it was high summer.

The guys service was OK, but really not that exceptional. As I said - he had to be asked for water refills every time (the lady at Applebee's was there with a fresh jug just as we'd finished the old one without having to be asked!), he cleared my husbands and daughter's starter plates before I had finished mine, and corrected my husbands pronunciation of the wine we chose (sorry but in Europe, we say MERlot not MerLOT as in the US) .... Which IMHO was a bit rude and patronising.

He got the $100 as my hubby is far more generous a tipper than I am, and he was good with our daughter who couldn't choose what she wanted. The face drop when he saw the tip was very telling - it wasn't surprise that we had left so much, more like annoyance that it wasn't enough.

I really do prefer eating out in The UK, where tips really are at the diner's discretion, and rarely go above 12.5%!

I agree with those who said the handwritten tip amounts are insulting. I'm not thrilled with the pre-printed calculations, but handwritten figures would cause me to summon the manager and start making inquiries about the purpose of such notations.

That's a bugbear of mine too, being English, but it is the 'norm' in North America. My father, who didn't realize that it was normal, once absolutely flipped about it (I think it had been mounting for days!) until I explained it wasn't them being rude, but it is considered efficient here.

I know now to let the wait staff know not to clear the plates until we are finished, when dining with my parents. If they aren't around, I let it slide.

My American friends pronounce it 'Mer-low', I don't know any who pronounce the T - but yeh, very rude correcting the customer!

I was lucky enough to eat at some very good restaurant when I was a child and teen - I have great memories of some of them. I see absolutely no reason a child (nevermind a teen of 15) should be excluded from fine dining (exception being if they would disturb others), I enjoyed trying new food, enjoyed the time spent over a good meal talking, it was just part of everyday life, eating out (especially on vacation).

If nothing else, at 15 the child is probably taking on board life lessons - knowing the basics, such as which cutlery to use for what, how to determine what wine to order, what different dishes are, making conversation, table manners etc. I still sit down for dinner with adults who don't wait for everyone to be served before they start, chew or talk with their mouth open, use the wrong fork for their salad, pick wine based on price alone, butter their bread with the knife on the butter dish, cut their bread rolls open, cut their salad with a knife, etc. These were all things I was taught to do correctly as a child.

I take relatives' and friends' children out for meals in restaurants that are, IMO, age appropriate. I wouldn't hesitate to take my friend's 16 year old daughter to any of the restaurants where we happened to be, but for my friend with two little boys, 6 and 4, I would select somewhere appropriate, based on menu, atmosphere, and the time it takes to enjoy a meal there. Most Italian restaurants work, although both of them also like French and Indian food too, so provided they aren't too stuffy, they are good bets too.

A few comments (and questions):
(1)In Las Vegas (a city that revolves around tipping), they leave, in your hotel room, a weekly publication [Viva Las Vegas, ie], which has a tipping suggestion PAGE--15%-20% is still listed for rest. tips.
(2)When 15% was the norm, doubling the sales tax (in most locales) was a quick way of figuring the tip.
(3)A waiter should prefer tips in CASH--less info for the IRS.
(4)For the tip on wine, many (respected:)) guide books still list only 10% [sometimes the price for a bottle of wine could easily exceed the price of the food]. [My host at a casino, when I had a special dinner, stated 10% is sufficient for wine.] Question: whether it is 10% (15%-20%), does the sommelier get a separate tip [he/she (1)opens the bottle, (2)every now and then fills empty glasses.]

I tip on the pretax amount, including alcohol. Your server will have to tip out the bartenders, so in effect you are tipping the barstaff too..

I am shocked that a server would react negatively to a 20% tip as if it weren't enough. 20% is well above the norm in the US. I would only tip that much in a restaurant if the service were well "above and beyond' the norm expected-- either because the waitstaff did an excellent job accommodating us or because we were an unusually demanding group. If a server copped an attitude that 20% were not enough I would certainly speak to the manager.

I don't get why a $100 tip on a $500 bill for service that went above and beyond would be considered insufficient. Perhaps not overly generous...but when did a 20% tip become substandard. Is the 15%-20% range no longer the guideline?

It certainly is still the guideline; I don't think you and he are disagreeing.

The original person's waiter disagreed, but who knows why? Maybe he was just hoping to take advantage of foreigners, or was used to people over-tipping at a big tourist location.

That's getting up close to 20% many places, and it's still very much a normal rule of thumb here in California.

I have several friends who are serious wine types who say he should; OTOH, I have never been out to dinner with one of them where we were at a place where they actually engaged the sommelier. Pricy wine is wasted on me, as is most fine dining that isn't an expensive steakhouse.

There are some very good restaurants that aren't hugely expensive fine dining places which was my specific point.

I don't see any reason why a child should be excluded from ANY fine dining, assuming they'll behave, but at the same time you have to know the child and how picky an eater they are.

That one's going to be a problem on this side of the Atlantic. Plus, not everyone grows up to like wine.

This is a regionally variable norm; I grew up with that being rude back east, and a LOT of Californians will be "go ahead and start before it gets cold."

That one can be taught anywhere, and it's just as rude at a Denny's. :D

OK, there's a fine dining difference, finally, although you certainly don't need to be in the $150-a-head range (or even the $50-a-head) to get a salad fork.

Not sure why any wine drinker would trust a non-wine drinker (or a cheap "house red by the glass" almost-non-wine drinker, like me) with picking a wine.

OK, that makes sense, although you don't have to get to that higher range to get a shared butter dish rather than prepacked pats.

Isn't that a matter of taste? The whole break vs. cut/bite seems anachronistic to me.

Doesn't that depend on the type of a salad? I've been served salads, including some at nice places, that came with a knife specifically for it -- hard to eat a wedge or whole-leaf salad without one.

Not sure why one would bother with a chopped salad, but it doesn't strike me as impolite were one to do so.

--

Clearly, people's senses of "expensive" differ, and the Bay Area isn't QUITE the most expensive metro-area in the US -- it's probably about #5 after NY/Chicago/LA/DC -- let alone comparable to London or Tokyo... but my point was about the level of cost, and not about kids at restaurants in general.

15% is still the norm. don't believe anyone who says otherwise. doubling the tax makes sense only if tax is 7-8%.

servers prefer cash not to avoid reporting, but because they get the money that day, as opposed to waiting until the next paycheck for CC tips.

My parents tried that, and the pickiness has stuck to spitting distance of 40, so... I'm inclined to disagree.

Because of the drinking age laws; I don't see the point in knowing hypotheticals about something you can't drink.

I've tried a moderately large range of wine, although most of them at the inexpensive end of the range since I was doing so in college.

What's the point in understanding it if you don't like wine? It sounds to me like having an opinion on UK politics as an American or vice versa; sure, you can have one, but if you don't get to vote you still don't get to vote.

This I'd have to see; as a general rule, I wouldn't trust most people to cook food properly if it's not food they enjoy -- let alone food they wouldn't eat at all.

I've never knowingly seen a fish knife and don't know what distinguishes one; I've eaten at some fancy places that specialized in seafood (Aqua up in SF, cerca 2001 probably the fanciest, and certainly the priciest -- IIRC we were over $200 for two people without any alcohol) and I don't recall getting a separate knife.

"Use utensils in from the edges" and "watch what other people use" seems a good enough rule for me.

Sure... but what's the point? I don't quite "not drink" but nobody is ever going to be impressed by my wine choices, and I'd look like an idiot trying to impress anyone.

Sure; I had a little bit of wine and beer at home growing up -- not at what I'd call "a very young age" but starting probably 10-12. I can't say I had much of either until my late teens when I started drinking to get buzzed/drunk, because none of what parents favored was to my taste. Once I started buying on my own, I found things I liked the taste of.

In practice, around here, there's almost ALWAYS someone more into wine around who's happy to make the decision... and if someone else is paying, I'm happy to have them pick something fancy. If not, around here knowing that a mid-price domestic Cabernet is safe with red meat or other rich foods, and a mid-price domestic Chardonnay is safe with salad/light entrees is good enough.

The former isn't really my taste in reds, and if I were ordering a glass to suit myself wouldn't be what I'd get, but it's a safe choice that just about anyone who drinks wine will tolerate.

To some limited extent, sure.

I don't know if that piece of etiquette has survived for the American middle class. Fancy restaurants over here are as likely to serve things pre-sliced (or partially pre-sliced) from a baguette or similar load as have indiviudual rolls, for that matter (or as in my favorite restaurant anywhere, serve a single round large enough to share.

The only other places I've had them have been with essentially American sorts of foods (whether labelled as American style or not); pity that they haven't made them over there more.

That sounds messy and inconvenient. Whole-leaf salads are definitely not the norm here, at least for lettuce -- although chopped versus torn definitely varies -- and the small weedy stuff tends not to need cutting. I very recently had an absolutely lovely whole-leaf butter lettuce salad, and can't imagine trying to eat that one without a knife. My recollection is that the restaurant in question provided a knife with the course, so I think that was their intent.

Not fine dining, though, in that case -- although the price for their particular upscale casual (fancy CA interpretation of Chicago Pizza) the prices were up there with an inexpensive end of fine dining.

That is not nearly as disconcerting as how on earth someone could rack up a $500 check on dinner for two adults and a child in that part of the world. Something does not add up, but I am prepared to be corrected.