The cognac thread
 

Apparently there isn't a cognac thread yet, which surprises me.

I've only had cognac once, and it was sublime. But it was a dusty old bottle of 50 year old Napoleon cognac that my grandpa gave my dad 20 years ago. I don't think I can walk over to the store and pick that up. :)

What are people's favorites? What is a good "everyday" brand?

As I understand, cognac (and armagnac) are types of brandy made in Cognac and Armagnac. What other brandies are similar/good?

Just to chip in on this...... IMHO an everyday cognac that won't break the bank is the Remy Martin VSOP available from a major national chain that does warehouse-style supermarketing. Only runs about $30 / bottle. But, it won't be anything like that 50 year-old gem!! Guard that one with your life.....

putongo

Agree with Remy, which Dom Capossela Senior sold me on
37 years ago when I was a Hennessy man. But as Courvoisier
is what both US and UA serve, that's what I buy now - it's
what I expect Cognac to taste like. Look also for Martell
VSOP Medallion, somewhat more than the Remy but I think
more complex and smoother.

Cognac (along with most liquor) does not age in bottle, so all the aging is only when it is in cask and stops once it is bottled. In fact it will be slightly worse after 20 years in bottle than when bottled, so you didn't get any aging or improvement during those 20 years (unlike wine). Presumably that means your 50 yo cognac was 30 yo -- which would not be labeled Napoleon typically. There is no legal definition of "Napoleon" except by convention it is usually the grade better than VSOP and worse than XO. This generally means it is about 10 yo (with maybe 1% 30 yo content at most), though the legal requirement is a mere 4 years .... and some are that young and coarse! It is very much a "buyer beware" though the name brands try for consistency.

Some of the US and Australian brandies are as good or better than French cognac and often much cheaper. Try Christian Bros. XO for example (not comparable to a French XO, but also a fraction of the price).

There is one cognac thread over in OMNI/PR, but I don't think it necessarily relates to this thread ;)

In terms of Cognac, I'm a huge believer in spending the money to get the good stuff. IF you are willing to spend $50 for a bottle of wine at a meal, then I think you can afford to spend $150 to get a really decent bottle of Cognac. The Cognac will last a lot longer, since you can get a good 15 1.5 oz pours from a single bottle. And unlike wine, it won't go bad when you put it away after opening.

My favorite right now is the Delamain. Although I also must admit to having an affinity for Cointreau Noir, which is a blending of Cointreau and Remy Martin Cognac. MMMMMM.

I could be wrong in referring to it as "Napoleon" - I think that's what my dad said it was. But I am pretty sure it was aged 50 years before being bottled. It says so on the bottle. I'll double check when I'm at my parents' for Thanksgiving. So it's probably 70ish years old. Yikes!

For everyday stuff, either Martell or Hine XO. Personally, love the Hine because of the very oaky taste to it.

I stay away from Remy and Henessy XO as they taste a bit "inferior" to me. Also, there were a lot of rumours years ago that their product was deteriorating because of the demand and their inability to keep up.

i regret not trying louis xiii for $37.50/oz on seabourn...

but im not sure i would like cognac?

i only drink shiraz (grange ^), cabernet sauvignon, malbec. no white wine, and i have only enjoyed champagne once, and found it drinkable one other time. and thats not including 1996 dom, which seems to be one of the best vintages. i could recognize the quality, but to me it was not really dry at all. i just cant stand any hint of fruit. or as it seems to me i guess.

if it may not be "fruity" im not sure whether to try "regular" cognac or only things like louis xiii in order to see if i would like it?

like with single malts, so far (went to a tasting) i only like macallan. (25 sherry oak ^)

My two cents:

I would agree that Remy VSOP is a good "everyday" cognac, as it isn't extremely pricey, is consistent and readily available.

There are "fruity" cognac's and some less so. I like both. :)

I very much like the Hine brand, but it is not available from the state liquor board here unless I special order a case.

I find that VS cognacs are good for just a "brandy-like" taste. A good VSOP will give you just a hint of ageing flavor, but will definitely be smoother. The XO's are where cognac really differentiates itself, and the cask ageing flavors become noticeable. Above that, it only gets better, if you can afford it, and the question is, is it really worth it...

I would recommend trying a few good VSOP's and XO's at a restaurant or bar (maybe not all in the same evening), and see what you like before dropping $40 to $100+ on a bottle.

That is a great bar price for Louis XIII; the last bottle I bought was over USD 1000 and that took considerable searching.

As cognacs get older and more expensive they become lighter, "fruitier", more fragrant but with less body, more like perfume. This is why most very old cognac is used for blending with much younger ones. The bottom line is that old cognacs are so verrrrrry expensive not because they are better tasting, but because of their rarity and high demand for prestige value.

You might prefer something like Martell Cordon Bleu, or if wanting to try older and lighter but still with excellent body, Hennessy Paradis. Most likely the ultra-premiums like Louis XIII would disappoint you. It is an acquired taste.

Personally I prefer old (and expensive) Calvados; but hard to find outside of France. Better than most cognacs. Also the grape eaux-de-vie made in Germany (mostly Rhine valley but some Moselle) are superb; they are like cognac but clear (due to different aging) and of course made with better grapes than cognac has :)

wild stuff. so if anything, id prefer younger for more body/dry and less fruit.

IIRC ive seen expensive calvados by bottle on menus, but not really expensive by shot.

speaking of rarity, gotta love stuff like this >
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/luxur...esborough.html
and
http://www.elitetraveler.com/resourc...rits_mar09.pdf
...

re worth it, all i can say is >
2001 grange was well worth $220/bottle
25yo sherry oak macallan is well worth $50/shot, over 18yo sherry oak from $15/shot

four seasons washington has tasting/flight including a $2000 single malt, but not sure i want to try it and find out i dont like it..

there need to be more places that serve small portions, like wine by the ounce (only from machines??) or liquor by quarter ounce (like scotch bar at willard hotel) :(

http://www.martell.com/#/home ;)

dh

Hold the thread for a moment.:eek:

We may need at how to drink guide here.:)

I've always heard that the glass type makes a difference when drinking Cognac.
Furthermore some folks heat / warm the glass prior to drinking?:confused:

Thoughts?

I've always been taught that one drinks any beverage from its appropriate glassware - at least, this goes for the higher end of any kind of beverage. A generic table wine will be fine from a tumbler (Italian style).

I've always seen cognac drunk from a snifter, which you cup in your hands to warm it slightly.

I love Cognac. That lovely scent from the snifter is divine. I discovered several years ago that I could not drink Cognac. We drank the good stuff. Had nothing to do with the quality or age. Something about that drink gave me a horrible headache for 24 hours. It only took one snifter to make me miserable. So not worth it.

Remy XO is my drink of choice. :) ^

Martell XO is good too.

I've never had the guts to shell out and try Louis XIII. One of these years I will but it's an awful lot to spend on something as temporary as a drink.

Cheap cognac is best drunk from a spherical snifter, warmed over an open flame -- that burns off the aromatics, which are not so pleasant in cheap cognac.

Expensive cognac is best drunk from a tulip-shaped glass (the same as used for fine scotch). Gentle warming from body heat to release the fine aromatics (which you don't want to lose as it is what makes that cognac so expensive).

While visiting Armenia I discovered Ararat Nairi 20 Year Old. I must say it's really exceptional. One of the best cognacs I've ever tried.

Wouldn't that be Armenian brandy, not cognac? It wasn't made in Cognac, France.

Yep, you're absolutely right. It's quite common in Poland to call all brandys as cognacs :) the same with adidas. Bit strange but true...

Many times people who enjoy red wines and single malt scotch ( and I prefer the peatier malts such as Laphroaig, Talisker, Bowmore, Lagavullin) seem to enjoy armagnacs, which are a type of brandy. You may want to try one.

A Napoleon is the same as a XO. Cognac only has three ages:
VS youngest blend is minimum 2 and a halve years old
VSOP youngest blend is minimum 4 and a halve years old
XO, Napoleon youngest blend is minimum 6 and a halve years old

That means that both the most expensive Remy Martin and the blandest cheap bottle of Cognac can be a XO or Napoleon. For the law there is no difference between a blend of 6 and a halve years old and a blend of 80 years old.

I don't care ... Armenians put on the label. It was not, is not and will never be Cognac, one of the most sacred of titles, reserved for a brandy distilled within a defined geographic area, the Charente, from the mostly semi-undrinkable white wines of the area, aged to a modest requirement set by law.

"Conac" with a curly-cue over the "n" is not Cognac either, although Spanish Brandies ranges from the truly nasty to some of the world;'s most drinkable.

"Armagnac", from another part of France, the Southwest, has many adherents who find it equal or preferable to most Cognacs.

I mourn for the popular Cognac brands of my youth, which these days, at least in the US, especially Hennessy and Courvoisier, been doctored to meet the tastes of those segments of society which have adopted them. Thicker, heavier and more syrupy to my palate than half a century ago, they are just right for those quaint folk who mix theirs with Coke.

For everyday "Cognac", not that good Cognac can ever be "everyday", Hine remains trustworthy, clear, a defined aroma and not clogged with a heavy aftertaste. Most of the folks who are so enamored of Cognac these days would be unlikely to realize that you had sloshed a jigger of Christian Bros. in their snifters (or their damnable highball glasses to top off with Coca Cola). It's mostly affectation.

God does permit, for older gents, the occasional "Brandy & Soda", a decent Cognac or merited Spanish Brandy (Domeq's Fundador at the bottom, hopefully chosen from higher on the brandy tree, Carlo I used to be pretty good) in a heavy cut crystal "rocks" glass, no ice, but a squirt of chilled soda from the siphon. We brought back a new set of glasses from Prague last year, and the deeply incised facets give the brandy more colors than the church windows of Prague.

To satisfy my own idle curiosity, I checked the bottle of Anush brandy that I have in the china cabinet. (It's on display by virtue of the bottle, which is crafted into the shape of a horse.) The label identifies it as "Armenian Brandy," which is proper. The Cyrillic letters on the back, however, identify it as "Armyanskii Konyak." Methinks this is a linguistic issue -- could the term "Cognac" be used to mean "brandy" in some languages?

Incidentally, the Armenian side of my heritage is growing ever more jealous at this line of conversation. When I lived in Western New York, I used to keep a bottle of Ararat 18 yr brandy in the house to get me through the harsh Buffalo winters. Now that I've moved to Virginia, where liquor stores are still operated by the state, I can't find it anymore.

Back when IB had F I was exposed to some very fine Spanish brandies (which were served by IB in F but are no longer served as IB only has J service). It was a real eye opener, quite different from "real" cognac, but every bit as good. More sunny and fruity, yet with depth and finesse. Cardinal Mendoza was one of these exquisite brandies; thank you IB for exposing me to this taste sensation!

It actually is legally Cognac. It's an odd exception to an an odd bit of protectionism.

Buy a Cognac distillery, move it a few km, operate it using the exact same people, methods, ingredients, etc. and, TA DA!, if you use the same noun to describe your product you are breaking the law. Of course you can always change the law to suit your protectionist needs (an example) .

Make absolute garbage in the right area and it can still (pardon the pun) the have same name (legally).

My personal view is that the really absurd protectionism is the ban on the use of terms like "type", "kind" , "style"; calling a brandy* made to Cognac-specs (minus the geography) "Cognac-style brandy" is illegal in many places. Comparing your product to similar, perhaps far inferior, products is illegal?

That's not protecting the integrety of the product; it's protecting the revenue of landowners from potentially superior (higher quality, lower cost, etc.) competitors (or, heaven forbid, UK-based slicers doing what Parma producers recommend; this one has me a bit confused.)

* why don't the Dutch go after those who usurp their term for burned wine? :D

\Needs some more burned wine.

Yes it could, and it actually is in most of of ex-communist countries. Cognac is widely used to describe all cognacs and brandy.

My longstanding favorite Cognac has been Hine Triomphe (now $299 Cdn. in Ontario). It has an average age of 40 years in the blend. Hine Antique XO is around 20 -25 years old and is $176 in Ontario. The XO from Remy is $228, Hennessy $229, and Courvoisier $220 which are also around the 20 to 25 year range. Why the price difference? Advertising costs come to mind. I maintain that after Triomphe, diminishing returns set in rapidly. Hine used to produce Reserve Personnelle de la Famille which was around 60 years of age and they still produce vintage Early Landed Cognacs aged by Her Majesty's Customs. I've not tried the Early Landed Cognacs which supposedly have a different flavour profile from the blended Cognacs. Think of Vintage Armagnac v. blended Armagnac.

Two other Cognac houses to try are Albert de Montaubert and Kelt. Albert de Montaubert produces a 25 year old and 50 year old Cognac which have both won a lot of medals at the International Wine and Spirits Competition in the U.K. and Mundus Vini Competition in Berlin (e.g. Silver, Gold and Gold best in class). Kelt however does something that is unique. It ages its Cognacs at sea as was done in the 19th century. The barrels are only partially filled unlike barrels aged on land. What happens is that the spirit moves back and forth in the barrel and there is increased wood contact per volume of spirit which imparts a different flavour profile. A sommelier colleague of mine said that a client of his preferred it to limited production bottles of the big houses. Kelt also produces Armagnac in this method and a vatted malt whisky.

I was at the International Wine Meeting in Chicago earlier this year and there was an entire room devoted to Armagnac. Armagnac allows up to 10 different grape varieties and some distilleries make bottlings with only one varietal. (The geek in me rejoices at this!) Trust me, sampling free Armagnac from one's birth year is one of life's pleasures. (I didn't spit.) Houses to look for include Delord and Castarede. A new product from Armagnac is La Blanche which is a young clear spirit.

A relatively new AOC is Calvados Domfrontais. Unlike Calvados and Calvados Pays d'Auge, which are made entirely from apples, Calvados Domfrontais requires a minimum of 30% pears.

FMH1964's post contains some interesting info, including the mention of Armagnac and calvados, both worthy companions to Cognac.

Recently, I ran across a medium priced Cognac bottling, "Gabriel & Andreu", also available in 4 single estate bottlings, quite different from the current run of "heavy bodied" popular brands which I often find cloying. I recommend the brand highly and found it comparable in appeal to my long time favorite, Hine.

Its been years since I've drunk Hine Triomphe but I recall it as being unusually heavy (rich and full-bodied) with a lot of vanilla. Quite a different style from its peers/competitors. Martell Cordon Bleu is also good value (and somewhat similar, though more like an older XO). But the really good cognacs are from the small producers and not often imported into Canada or US; these are often priced much lower as well as being better drinking.

Louis XIII is a great drink and for $37.50 thats a steal !!! I pay between $125-$170 a "nice" oz. Well worth it !!

Does anyone know of a current guide to Cognac? I have Gordon Brown's Handbook of Fine Brandies from 1990 but that has to be considered out of date by now. I was not impressed by Salvatore Calabrese's Cognac: a liquid history. Who is the Cognac equivalent to the now departed Michael Jackson of single malt fame?

Having been brought up in the East-end and therefore having very basic unsophisticated tastes - I prefer armagnac to cognac. Hence the belief exists that all armagnac is better than all cognac.

Books? Its all on the web now :)

I like the Beverage Tasting Institute as they have good descriptions along with the numerical score, allowing you to make up your own mind about what to try. http://www.tastings.com/search_spiri...f=ScoreForSort

Beverage Tasting Institute isn't as comprehensive as what one might hope. Only 11 Armagnacs and 9 Luxury Cognacs (above XO) from 3 producers. The International Wine and Spirit Competition for 2010 has entries for 70 cognacs, 16 Armagnacs and 28 Calvados. Gilbert & Gaillard online does have entries for Cognac, Armagnac and Calvados. Another useful competition is Mundus Vini.

Has anyone encountered Cognac Grosperrin? This shipper specializes in Vintage Cognacs (yes they do exist) from specific zones within Cognac e.g. 1980 Grande Champagne, 1975 Bon Bois, 1954 Fins Bois etc. This shipper would seem to have a following in Europe. Two other well reviewed producers are Chateau de Beaulon and Famille Esteve. I have tried some of the cognacs from Chateau de Beaulon but not Famille Esteve.

I must be going wobbly as I get older.

I'm now completely ambivalent about cognac but absolutely adore armagnac. It possibly reflects me exactly. Unrefined. Cognac could be made anywhere .... I feel armagnac is different.

To me the extra distillation flattens character and detatches the drink from the grape. But armagnac gives you the grape, the water, the earth and I feel you can almost taste who made it and it is of the distinct terroir. In fact I'm certain ...:D

What's worst is that there seems to me to be an inverse relationship between character and price. To me the cheaper normally the better.

Anyway that's my cat amongst the pigeons.;)

Armagnac has always had more fire than cognac, being earthier, heavier and more pungent. Less subtle, floral and perfumey. Both good and bad virtues. There are fabulous eaux de vie made in Germany that are half-way between armagnac and cognac, but by small producers without marketing or aggregation; sort of a farmer's market of what would be superb cognac if it were made in Cognac :) Try a tour along the Rhine near Mainz, for example -- quite an eye-opener, though you may need a local guide as they don't sell to strangers.

Germain-Robin is a fabulous maker of "cognac" from a sheep farm in Mendocino, California -- as he should be, using an old copper still from Cognac, and nth generation cognac maker from France, relocated to California. Making some superb brandies, using all sorts of distinctive grape varieties. Some good, some far better (not all experiments are a resounding success, no matter how good the technique or authentic the equipment). Rather ironically their best brandies are not for sale, being reserved in the distillery for aging until after the founder's death, to make "Napoleon" brandy in future centuries. They have about 10 years production in inventory (an astonishing investment).

Ah, not always. Generalization have their limits. There are some fine Armagnacs that show subtlety, refinement and delicacy. Surely with a single distillation most of them are as you say. I have before me right now a bottle of 1977 Cépage Bacco of Baron de Lustrac, and another of 1982 Domaine de Jaurrey of Laberdolive. I challenge anybody to find a cognac that begins to comapre in precisely the terms of refinement, smoothness, delicacy

"Germain-Robin is a fabulous maker of "cognac"

Germain-Robin contributes several of my favorite bottles, but they are not "cognac" even in parentheses. Even the maker calls them alambic brandies but does not confuse the issue by using an incorrect name. I am disinclined to accept the idea that they are 'the best in the world' but they certainly have some excellent choices.
http://www.germain-robin.com/

Absolutement mon cherie. ;)

My interest in armagnac started when I first chatted after service with a chef whose food I adored. He loved armagnac. He collected it in order to drink it. He shared it with people that were left in his restaurant after he'd finished service. He never kept some for barmitvahs or weddings.

From then on - and this is off course unscientific - I noticed that the French whose taste I some times respected seem to enjoy armagnac and considered cognac prissy and for Americans and Japanese or for people who thought that they were refined. Or French politicians who are of course refined. And if you can't afford to drink a bottle with friends in one session then it isn't fit for purpose.

What is more .... I also drink grappa. Now do your worst.:D

a number of the restaurants in france, particularly in and around normandy have a cart of open calvados(don't know plural). some have little tags indicating 100 or even 150 years old. they are poured in small increment, at very high prices. most bottles on the market are 40yo max.