FoPAA....guess you’re going to have to keep repeating it because I remain unconvinced. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif
But Happy Holidays to you and your family nevertheless.

I have seen it happen. I have also been helped by a buddy at the gate. I guess it is time for some reality pills this holiday season! (I don't think there is anything wrong with the buddy at the gate process.)

Nor do I....that’s what buddies are for. Show me a veteran gate agent and I’ll show you someone who knows how to work the system.
Enough said...sorry for getting this thread off topic.

I just have to disagree with the complaints about the PMU's for international flights. DL's program is one of the best for PM's as compared to most of the OAL's, AA being maybe slightly better. In my last 8 years of flying internationally 3 - 5 times/year, I've only been in the back on 2 segments, one of which was a last minute change in dates. I also think that restricting the fares makes a LOT of sense - BizE is packed as it is, with a mix of Biz fars and upgrades, why allow lower fare classes to qualify for an upgrade. If you want the Biz seats, pay the extra. And it's not a 250% difference on average - it's maybe double which in absolute dollars is about $800 for a r/t to Europe, or less for Japan and other destinations. Look at it this way - if you fly international 3 times a year, your upgrade cost should average about $2,000/year, which is a very fair cost to sit up front.

Repeating a statement doesn't increase its validity. I can well believe you've never been aided in this way by a buddy, but I've seen it happen too.

My guess is that under the new scheme of things it will be harder if not impossible for buddies to be of much help though.

A very incisive analysis. While I agree that many members want to upgrade on every fare (internationally) - such as LUT's, the more you pay the more you get. My current gripe is that B/E is getting dated, and the cabins in sad shape. If i'm going to pay another $500.00 for an "M" fare to upgrade into, I better be getting something for my extra 500 bones.

Arguably, the amount of goodies, service and other stuff you receive on a B/E flight to, say Munich, doesn't add up to the difference of $500.00. However the legroom, seats and overall experience are worth it. It's a buyers market - you want the seat, you pay more to get it. Simple as that.

[This message has been edited by heckler (edited Dec 21, 2003).]

I'm not sure about the logic here; of course you can pay BE fares to fly BE. But Delta gives you (a small number of) PMUs as a reward for flying with them a lot (the only upgrade perk intern'l travellers get). Shouldn't you be able to use them??? You apparently have been able to, so I guess this is why you don't see it as a problem.

FoPAA,
With all due respect, are you really saying that with a large and complex organization as DL or any of the big airlines, that there is not a fair amount of ticket fixing, rigging, etc? I know it is not official policy, but I would be surprised if there is never agents helping out buddies.

[This message has been edited by jetsetter (edited Dec 21, 2003).]

That's exactly NOT what I'm saying - a full BizE fare to Europe runs about $5M - $6M, a corporate discounted BizE fare averages half of that, and I fares are in the rough area of $2M when they come up in the off season. An M fare is $1,200 - $1,600 unless you're buying within a short window of time. So first off, you're not paying Biz fares, and second, I don't think there is any airline that provides more PMU's than DL.

Availability is a separate issue - the closer you try to book an upgrade to your actual departure the less likely you are to succeed, (and you're going to pay more on top of that). This is true on any airline, especially after the cutbacks of late 2001 and early 2002. People also book international flights with longer lead times than domestic flights - simple fact of life. It does make it hard for anyone looking for an upgrade within 2 - 3 weeks or so.

Yes, that's what I am saying. Evidently I'm wasting my breath. Evidently what I've seen in 33 years of flying is all wrong. No one will ever be convinced, so I give up.

Sorry, runningshoes...still confused. I've never argued about DL giving PMUs -- my entire point is that booking 7 Y/B/M RT fares and requesting an upgrade 12 weeks in advance (company policy) over the last year has resulted in a lot of "waitlisting" and a grand total 2 upgrades. If DL gives you 100 PMUs that you can't use before they expire, is that generous?

(PS: I hope you meant K instead of M when quoting fares--if not, let's talk about finding you a new travel agent http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif )

When I still looked, or cared for that matter, I NEVER saw a niMBY for under $1200-$1300 and that was to highly competitive places like LGW/CDG - i.e. forget VCE on a fare that 'low'. Usually the tix were pushing closer to $2K IMHE.

It seems these are considered a super deal because it 'saves' 25K out of your bank to upgrade. I just don't see the 'deal' in forking over a huge premium to play upgrade lottery DL style - with miles or PMU's. It is just too high a premium for the type of flying I usually go to Europe on - i.e. I know I am going at least three weeks out.

Of course, maybe I am just a little partial to VIPOWs and SWU's (the UA version) which are indeed worth something to ALL elites.

Not sure about VIPOWs, but SWU's on United only go to 1K flyers, not all elites. I was Premier and Premier Exec on United, and never saw a SWU. My upgrade sucess rate on DL was much higher than UA.

Sloppy language on my part, only top-tiers on UA/AA receive these. Only US gives out systemwides to lower level elites AFAIK.

The point I was trying to make was that top-tiers on UA & AA consider (myself included) the VIPOWS/SWU the biggest 'prize' for giving 100K+ of business to either of these carriers.

A large number of PM's (also myself included) consider PMU's nothing more than a revenue grab by DL.

The best show of this is that this type of discussion never occurs on the UA/AA board...with the exception of when UA tried to turn SWU's in the direction (still not nearly as severe as niMBY, though) of PMU's earlier this year!

Now I know why we're seeing this so differently - you've been booking K fares which are not upgradeable on international flights! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif