L Fares and Upgrades
 

I have been carefully looking at the class of ticket i fly for upgrade purposes and find that in spite of the uproar about upgrades and the L fare that all my discount tickets so far have qualified for upgrades even though i'm flying with a discount ticket.

My requests were consistently turned down. That's one reason I just switched to American - they're stingier on upgrades, but once you get them you can use 'em on any fare. Delta's new policy is great if you fly on someone else's dime and don't care how many of their dimes you waste, but lousy for those of us who watch our, or our company's, money. (AA transfered me into Platinum AAdvantage. The double mileage credit, pre-boarding, special check-in lines, etc., started right away.)

If I book a seat in coach and pay the higher price for the non "L" class seat and can't upgrade should Delta pay me back the difference in the fares? and if not, does this mean we the frequent flyers now must pay higher fares to enjoy the benefits we earned by flying Delta

I just feel if an airline is going to award you for flying them you should not have to pay extra to use the award.

As a Platinum Medallion on Delta for the second straight year (270 paid Delta flights in two years), I would like to remind you that all Medallion level upgrades are a PERK (see also BONUS, FREEBEE, GIFT) and not a privilege... Why should an airline reward low-paying frequent travelers before those of us who are higher-paying?

L-class fares require one to buy a ticket quite early... This also would allow a Platinum Medallion to upgrade quite early, taking seats that are currently given to those of us who pay more. Who would you rather have a bit tweaked at you? One who usually pays the lowest fare, or one who pays more?

It's simple economics... Delta gets more money from non-L fare passengers and, if forced to make a choice, would rather keep them happy. If you've been paying attention, you've noted that First is FULL on 98+% of its flights.

Maybe with an L-fare, they could let you upgrade at the gate if a seat would otherwise go unsold...

And I also look out for the company's $, flying on an L-fare when it is available, so please don't even go there.

You can't be getting upgrades on an L class fare. If you are, please let the rest of us know how you are doing this.

John,
I can see part of you points but My company has a deal with the travel agent ( We have over 150 people flying every week ) I can get an L class flight the day befor I leave dont ask me how. But with the money we spend on the airlines and time its just to use the upgrades.

I can understand the logic behind restricting the cheapest fares from advance upgrades. All I would ask is that in every market where there is an L fare, there is also a K fare that is not priced exorbitantly higher. For example, from Atlanta to Honolulu, there are no K fares! You either buy an L fare when the market is on sale, or you buy a Q fare that can be upgraded, but it costs $950.00.

Having said that, I still think that at the time of departure, if there are empty first class seats, they should go to Platinum Medallion flyers, and then down the line from there. To say that you would rather fly with the seat empty than give it to someone who flys with you 100,000 miles a year is nothing less than greed.

I'm in my third consecutive year as Platinum, and even though Delta claims that K fares are only "marginally higher than L in most markets", the routes I usually fly make K fares over $200 more than L. This really bites; you can't offer a perk, then take it away and expect not to alienate some of your passengers who have demonstrated extreme loyalty, many times going out of their way, schedule-wise, to fly Delta. I suggested that they restrict L upgrades to Silver/Gold, and still allow Platinums (the ones who've shown the most loyalty) to upgrade. Or as TWA did, stop being tightwads and spend money to increase the number of first class seats.

Should I be penalized for planning in advance (and getting an L fare) by not being allowed to upgrade? What's going to happen in a lot of places is that frequent flyers will wait until the last minute to book flights, thereby almost ensuring that L fares will be sold out, and ultimately costing their employer more money. The result of that is that the *employers* will start to specify that employees travel something other than Delta to save money. Vicious circle.

By the way, most other major (domestic) carriers, fully aware of the ire of Delta's frequent flyers with this, are MORE THAN WILLING to match Delta's PREVIOUS frequent flyer rules if you fly on their airlne.

This "L" fair decision on Delta's part basically means for me that when I travel and Delta quotes an "L" fare, I'll now consider all the other airlines as an option. It's just another step by Delta to back away from their best customers (remember when SkyMiles came about, the lower award thresholds for Medallion members went away).
But what really is frustrating, is that Delta's rationale for doing this is to allow more seats for upgrade on non-"L" fares. As a Gold Medallion, it's STILL almost impossible to upgrade anymore.
Guess we can always hope that someday we in Atlanta will get some real competition to Delta!

When I talked to somebody in DL's consumer affair division to discuss this, I was told that Delta had determined that one of the big benefits Delta would see from this move was more profits. BS! So far this year, other airlines have seen more than $3k from me, that Delta could have had in their own pocket. If "increased profits" is truly a goal of Delta for this stupid move, I have to assume that their bean counter's spreadsheets have some serious bugs.

Like most of the replies on this thread, I am not in favor of DL's restriction of a PM upgrade on L-class fares. If there is a seat available prior to departure that would otherwise remain empty, why not give it to a PM? When I wrote to DL's Customer Service about this, their response was "to allow the use of minimum mile upgrade certificates in conjunction with our lowest fares is simply not practical from a business standpoint. To remain profitable, we must make every effort to make seats available for those customers who are willing to pay a higher fare for first-class travel." That doesn't answer my question on why PMs can't upgrade on an L-fare if there are seats in F prior to departure. I am a Million Miler and have been Royal Medallion and Platinum Medallion for the past 6 years, why can't I and other PMs get a break? As a result, I have been flying CO 60% of the time now.

i understand delta wanting to get the most money but i do feel that (and someone else said this), if you are indeed a Medallianmenber, no matter how lowly, if the seat is availabe, you should get it. We've waited many times for space availablity (no-shows) before being upgraded. I think what Delta is forgetting is that in order to be in the Medallion class, the passenger has to have spent a certain amount of money.

i understand delta wanting to get the most money but i do feel that (and someone else said this), if you are indeed a Medallianmenber, no matter how lowly, if the seat is availabe, you should get it. We've waited many times for space availablity (no-shows) before being upgraded. I think what Delta is forgetting is that in order to be in the Medallion class, the passenger has to have spent a certain amount of money.

As one who also often travels for non-profit organizations and buys tickets out of my own pocket, the differential in the price of L vs K or Q fares is disturbing.
As a PLT with DL, AA and soon UA,
like many of you, I do understand WHY
DL needs to restrict PLT pre-reserving
F seating to permit full fare coach non PLT
some opportunity to upgrade.
All of you... AusTXHiker, Robert Leach, and others are 100% correct that DL should be sent a clear and unambiguous message that EMPTY F seats, at 10 or 15 minutes pre-departure (when seats are 'cleared') should be made available to the elite members at the gate in order of a wait-list by signin-time, with priority as usual, to PLT, GLD, MED...etc.
The BEST mechanism for this can be discussed and debated, but DL's explanation to those of you who have inquired has left much to be desired.
All PLT and other very frequent fliers deserve better. This DL policy needs rethinking by the highest levels of it's management.... and now.
Maybe they are listening!

Re Delta's management needs to be listening to these comments, I doubt it. I talked to a Delta rep in the Atlanta Crown Room recently, and he told me that a friend of his is a senior level manager at Delta. This manager said (allegedly) that "although the frequent flyers will ..... and moan for awhile, we'll just put up with it, lend a sympathetic ear, and pretty soon they'll forget about it". With that kind of attitude towards its frequent flyers, Delta is not going to remain profitable for very long at all.

Amen to jarnold's post. I was worth well into five figures to Delta last year, with travel companions who followed my choices adding at least as much again. This was not a one-shot deal: I've been some level Medallion, usually Royal/Gold, every year since the 80s. I wrote to Delta to protest the change and got a form letter brush-off. I am now 100 percent on American. That's over $25,000 in revenue per year moved. In addition, I'm rewriting five examples in the next edition of my business school textbook from Delta to AA - that's 60,000 students who will study free PR for your competition. Delta, are you listening? Do your bean-counters have ANY idea what a long-term business relationship means, and how easy it is to kill it?

I LOVE THIS!
I have been saying this in my web page sence the change at Delta.
If this dont help nothing will.
I am sure Delta is reading this they check my page quite often and so do the other airlines. Rentel cars and hotels check too.
Thanks to all have wrote.

It's good to know that I'm not the only one that is absolutely beyond a shadow of a doubt positive that Delta has made a major mistake in this decision. Is there any way to ensure that the proper people at Delta see those posts and can be made understand how much money they are really losing through this money-saving decision?

I have also gotten the standard reply from Mr. Coggins office regarding "L" class fare upgrades. I as PLT member have flown many flights in coach on "L" fares with empty seats in First. Now when I fly on higher fare
and upgrade, I often am sitting next to Delta
employees and family. The least Delta could do is offer space available upgrades at departure for elites(like continental). Employees now have this chance, I would appreciate the same chance. I am also a Gld elite at Continental and have shifted alot of revenue that way. I pay may own travel expenses and it just makes sense to fly Continental.

I have flown Delta 490 times, a Million Miler, Flying Colonel and until this year Gold Medallion or above, but no more.

I travel every week and my company try and get the best (sometimes lowest) fares.

Now that Delta stopped upgrades from L fares, plus they stopped Flying Colonel from using the Crown Room and in my case (Houston) almost withdrew jets, I fly Delta no more.

I called American, flew the required miles in the three month time frame and they gave me Platinum.

Goodbye Delta, thanks American

Anyone suggest what I do with 40 800 mile upgrade segments (be nice)

Parkin, you can donate your miles/segments in increments of 5,000 through SkyWish to CARE, Make-a-Wish, or United Way of America using the Award Request Form on your SkyMiles statement.

I wrote a letter to Robert Coggins providing feedback regarding L fares and received a reply from the Manager of Consumer Affairs . His reply was, basically, seats are sold to the highest bidder and we really don't appreciate you PM's! I copied his letter and attached it to a letter I wrote to Leo Mullin who sent it back to the Manager of Consumer Affairs! This time he apologized for not responding to my original statement -- I purchase L fares being fiscally responsible and my loyalty is not being rewarded that a Medallion paying an K fare is more important because of the incremental revenue. I really don't believe my statement was every fully understood!

I will still make PM status this year but when there is another choice of airline, I do consider it because Coach in American and United isn't that bad!

I do appreciate the Crown Room perk and Delta does still have a generous upgrade program but they did not handle the "take-away" well. They took away our ability to upgrade but we didn't receive anything in response.

I also agree with the other comments -- Delta should let us upgrade if there is a seat available. I am also a member of the Escape Plan and the powerful gate agents in the past upgraded me to F even though they weren't supposed to on a T fare. Now I am told the gate agents "get in trouble" if they upgrade customers on T or L fares.

So much for empowerment .....

I am a 2x Platinum. Has anyone looked into a class action suit against Delta for the L fare situation? Delta announced their policy mid-year after many of us had already flown 70+ segments. Had they announced at the start of the year, many of us would have used another airline.

Also..I am getting tired of being treated like I paid with food stamps when I'm on an L fare.

Now that Coggin has resigned, maybe Leo Mulin will do something. Does anyone have his direct e-mail address?

Class action law suit... Why not? In a country where we reward people stupid enough to spill hot coffee on themselves, this might be a possibility. The fact that DL acknowledges that they have received numerous complaints about the "no upgrade for L-fares" policy and has decided not to act on it tells us a lot. I hope the service gets better soon!

L fares being advance purchase is another lie.

Many times i can get an L Fare walk up...one-way...on day of flight. Usually this is available out of hi competition markets. What is so frustrating is that L Fares have no integrity. They can be any competitive matching fare.

alhcfp is right. I used to fly the SLC-ORF route. The last flight of the day isn't usually booked. I usually purchase an L-type fare the same day or the day before.

I like most of you fail to understand
Deltas policy of not allowing Platinum,
Gold, and Silver Medllion members the
opportunity to upgrade at the gate when
empty seats are available in First Class.
I wrote Delta earlier this year and asked
why NRSA (Non Revenue Space Available)
passengers(Delta employees and family
members) were allowed to stand-by for
First Class, yet loyal passengers
traveling on a discounted fare (L Class)
were not given the same opportunity.
Delta responded by saying that NRSA passengers
required little or no service. (sounds as
though they are perfect candidates for
coach)
I just fail to understand the logic
behind allowing a passenger who is
traveling for FREE the opportunity to
stand-by for First Class while denying a
loyal revenue passenger the same
opportunity. Has'nt Delta been telling us that this is about economics?

Even though I hated to see the L-fare upgrades taken away, I agree that the higher paying passengers should be allowed more benefits; however, I disagree on not allowing L class ticketed passengers to use their available upgrades after all revenue passengers are checked in.

Also, I too believe that Delta did not give FF members ample time to use up their earned upgrades. Back when Delta issued paper upgrade certificates, each one was valid for one year. Therefor, I believe that Delta, after announcing that L class fares could no longer be upgraded, should have allowed FF members a full year to use any unused segment upgrade from L class fares. If you remember a few years ago when all of the major airlines changed their FF programs, a lawsuit was filed against the major airlines. The lawsuit was successful in forcing the airlines to allow FF members the option of using earned mileage points, before the FF changes, at the old redemption level. I believe this situation is similar in that we earned upgrades based on the assumption we could use them on L class fares for 1-year from the date of the certificate.

I don't think this L-class upgrade issue is that new. The old 800 mile upgrade certificates and One-Way Systemwide upgrades stated that they were valid on only certain fares. Whenever I tried to use them they were only good on K class or higher fares. Usually I fly internationally and buy M class or B class fares and then upgrade with certificates domestically or us Systemwide upgrades. I agree though that sometimes the difference between L class and the next available fare can be double. In Feb I flew to Zurich and the L class was $500 and the next available fare was B class at $900. I took the L class and made sure I was on Swiss Air internationally. Also if you fly Eastcost to Hawaii, sometimes it is cheaper to fly Eastcost to Seoul round trip with a stopover in Hawaii then buying a domestic ticket.

I find now that everytime I fly Delta (and since I usually plan in advance in order to save my company money, that means I'm flying "L" class), it's a shame but I'm mentally cussing at Delta throughout the whole flight. I know the reservations people at most DL employees at gates, ticket counters, and Crown Rooms are *really* tired of hearing people knocking Delta because of this decision. I wonder if the DL bean counters have figured out yet that they're actually *losing* money in this deal, rather than saving it, as people use other airlines.

I'm starting to like the idea somebody mentioned here awhile back about starting a class-action lawsuit against Delta because of this. Is there any merit to that? Any chance of success (other than causing DL a whole bunch of bad PR)? Costs?

I mentioned class action.
It's doable based on mid-year announcement
caused damages.

I'll be home a while (unusual) so i may try to talk to some atty's.

Does anybody have any referrals like the post on the previous suit.?

I had originally posted my question about not being able to upgrade "L" fares around mid-April in the rec.travel.air newsgroup, and I guess I had just been "lucky" in the routes I'd been flying to this year so far, since "L" fares were apparently not available. Somebody in that newsgroup responded with something to the effect of "where have you been, this was announced in the Delta frequent flyer newsletter a long time ago". Was it really and I just missed it, or was this decision implemented after the year had already started? If it really was at the first of the year and we all just missed it, then a class action lawsuit probably doesn't stand a chance, and I guess we'll have to take our business elsewhere.

As I remember, Delta announced the 800-mile segment changes in June of 1997 to begin on January 1, 1998; therefor, if you earned segment upgrades from January 1, 1997 through June of 1997, you were not given the 1-year time period to use them as stated in the terms. I would say at a minimum, L-class fares should have been upgradable through June of 1998. By the way...those attorneys that handled the airline price fixing class action suit are located in Atlanta.

But when did they announce about Platinum members not being able to upgrade "L" fares? Was that done at the same time? If so, I think I missed it. (Platinum doesn't have to mess with 800 mile upgrade certificates, and can (could) also upgrade at the time of booking, as opposed to only 24-72 hours prior to the actual flight).

As far as I know, the 800-mile segment upgrades were announced by newsletter to all FF members at the same time. Although the Platinum members have unlimited segment upgrades, any 800-mile segment rules would apply - according to a Delta FF representative that I called in June of 1997.

This policy will drive away some business travelers, such as myself. I almost always fly deeply discounted coach tickets (such as L), but because of my elite status, I am able to upgrade often. This is one of my primary reasons for selecting (and remaininng loyal to) an airline.

There is a reason I have remained loyal to American Airline's frequent flier program, (I've been either gold or platinum since 1991): The ability to upgrade easily and often. That says it all.

I would never consider switching loyalty to Delta as long as they maintian their current policy.

Richard Price
President
Executive Tours International

PS: Yesterday, I tried to book a flight on Delta from Los Angeles to Chicago, and I wanted to use frequent flier miles to upgrade from a discounted fare. The LOWEST fare that Delta would allow me to upgrade from was $750!!! I then called Continental, and they had the lowest coach fare of any airline on the route ($240), AND they allowed me to cash in 20,000 miles to upgrade to First Class. Go Continental! In the future, I would fly Continental before I even considering picking up the phone to call Delta.

All of you need to stop whining. And to alhcfp...the basis of your lawsuit will not work. It was announced in August 1997 that the change would take place on January 1998. That was plenty of notice.
Why should someone who pays less than $200 for a ticket be able to upgrade to first class? Also most of you don't even pay for your tickets..your company does. And please always remember..the awards you are given are a BONUS for flying Delta. It's a freebie. Stop worrying about all of this and get on with your life.

Dear Jeyna,

I would love to "get on with my life" WITHOUT Delta Airlines. Unfortunately, Delta has no real competition in my city so I am stuck with them..until, please God!, Continental or some other airline decides to take them on in a big way.

It's not just this one thing, it's the whole attitude that has become Delta Airlines. The agents are HATEful, service is terrible, prices are high and they are continuing to take away perks offered to their best clients and raise fees at every opportunity (latest this week with the higher fees for escorting unaccompanied children).

Your post was definately pro-Delta....and very much expressed the customer attitude within Delta these days.

Jenya, you are clearly missing a number of points made in the various posts about Delta and "L" fares. For one thing, the proposed basis of the lawsuit mentioned is not that insufficient notice was given, but rather that Delta's rules stipulated that upgrade certificates were to be valid for one year. Thus, any upgrades earned by travelers in 1997 were valid for a period of less than one-year once the new rules went into effect on January 1, 1998. I am not an attorney, but if flyers specifically choose Delta over other airlines based on the understanding that the upgrades they earned were valid for a year and then Delta broke "the contract", it seems to be a legitimate case (or at least one worth a further look). It's no different than you having a contract to buy a Cadillac and the dealer delivering a Hyundai.

Second, I would agree that someone who pays less than $200 for a ticket should not normally be able to upgrade to first class. However, frequent flyers are not your normal travelers. They fly more in a year than most people do their entire lives! They buy dozens/hundreds of tickets costing tens of thousands of dollars over many years. The upgrades are earned for ALL of these trips not any single trip. Basically, what Delta has done by not permitting upgrades on "L" fares is say "we don't care about your past loyalty or the thousands of dollars you have already spent. How much money are you going to give me TODAY for a seat?" Why should anyone continue to fly an airline that adopts such an attitude?

Third, the argument that frequent flyers don't pay for their own tickets (even if mostly true) is irrelevant. The airline's rules (including Delta's) state that s/he who FLIES earns the miles, not s/he who pays. Frequent flyers are just going by the rules.

Fourth, frequent flyers are well aware that awards/upgrades are bonuses, not only on Delta but on most other airlines as well. However, to a large extent they are now a necessary part of doing business for the airlines. If Delta believes that the frequent flyers and their propensity for mile collection/award redemption are a nuisance, perhaps they should just eliminate the SkyMiles program. With proper notice, as defined in the rules, they CAN do this. We all know, of course, that they won't - to do so would destroy Delta. The frequent flyer would have no incentive to fly Delta and would quickly take his/her dollar to another airline that did offer awards. If Delta feels that SkyMiles can't compete with the programs of other airlines, they do have alternatives. They can try competing on other things like on-time arrivals, customer service, cleanliness of planes/lounges, quality of food, etc. Surveys suggest that frequent flyers actually value on-time arrivals more than miles! I would be more than happy to meet with Delta management to understand the strategic and operational issues/problems they face and discuss how I may be able to help them craft solutions which would provide them with a competitive advantage in the industry.

Finally, yes. Yes, we should all stop worrying about frequent flyer miles. Yes, we should stop worrying about fairness and what's right. Yes, maybe we should all stop worrying and just stick our heads in the sand and hope everything will be all right. That is what Delta's done, isn't it?