PM saturation has arrived
Sep 1, 2009, 7:50 am
#181
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Gone to Carolina in my mind
Programs: AA ExpMM, DL 2MM, IHG Spire/RA
Posts: 1,986
There are some 100+K flyers that will forego the more convenient airline for the one with the "SWU advantage" or other FF program perk difference, but those are generally the minority of elite customers, and not necessarily the highest RASM customers.
Sep 1, 2009, 9:28 am
#182
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2008
Programs: Formaldehyde Medallion DL DieMiles
Posts: 12,646
I'm still seeing UGs on NW clearing most frequently at 6 days out.
Sep 1, 2009, 9:46 am
#183
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: DFW
Programs: Marriott Life Titanium, Hilton Diamond, United Silver, DL, IHG Plat, etc.
Posts: 2,888
It is the exact same complaints that have been going on for years.
Here is a thread from 2005:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/delta...e-members.html
Some of the same people are still here and still complaining about the same things.
Here's a thread from 2004:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/delta...e-reasons.html
Anything there sound familiar?
These are just two of dozens of threads each year.
If you look at the other airlines boards, you will see the same sort of complaints with a different twist (ie they have a similar set of complaints, but the specific frustrations might be different) month in and month out.
FTers are just obsessive over their FF programs. They can't help it.
Point being that these same complaints that some here say will drive all the PMs and DMs away were being complained about five and ten years ago. There are also similar things being said about each of the other airlines on the other boards.
Normal FFers don't pay that much attention to the differences between programs, as the differences really aren't that big overall.
Here is a thread from 2005:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/delta...e-members.html
Some of the same people are still here and still complaining about the same things.
Here's a thread from 2004:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/delta...e-reasons.html
Anything there sound familiar?
These are just two of dozens of threads each year.
If you look at the other airlines boards, you will see the same sort of complaints with a different twist (ie they have a similar set of complaints, but the specific frustrations might be different) month in and month out.
FTers are just obsessive over their FF programs. They can't help it.
Point being that these same complaints that some here say will drive all the PMs and DMs away were being complained about five and ten years ago. There are also similar things being said about each of the other airlines on the other boards.
Normal FFers don't pay that much attention to the differences between programs, as the differences really aren't that big overall.
Last edited by pmaddock; Sep 1, 2009 at 10:38 pm Reason: typo
Sep 1, 2009, 9:50 am
#184
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jun 2008
Programs: Formaldehyde Medallion DL DieMiles
Posts: 12,646
The whole idea of a successful elite program is to create loyalty. Hence, in this case for the money to stay with DL. What you are saying, suggests that DL's PM program does not work! If that was the case DL and the other airlines would have eliminated their programs a long time ago.
However, DL would be hampered by its need for an occasional cash infusion from Amex to stay afloat.
My current belief is the rational behind FF programs is related to the old "if I could only sell one pair of shoes to each person in China" approach. The focus is on luring in members, not keeping the existing elite members happy.
If the credit card hawkers in the airports can can lure every person in the US (or, at least, a sizable portion) into the FF program with promises of "FREE tickets for only 25,000 miles" (Yes, they still claim FREE tickets)...
and if the bulk of the new members give DL some business, but never accumulate the considerably more than 25,000 miles necessary to gain two tickets (after all, how many people want to go someplace alone?)...
and, if a considerable portion of the awarded miles expire anyway...
then DL and Amex come out way ahead on the proposition.
This is not about stimulating loyalty... it's about stimulating churn.
Elites, and their expectations, are just the downside to running a FF program.
Sep 1, 2009, 8:25 pm
#185
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Atlanta, Ga
Programs: DL DM 2MM, AA LTP, Hyatt Globalist, FB Plat
Posts: 826
If the credit card hawkers in the airports can can lure every person in the US (or, at least, a sizable portion) into the FF program with promises of "FREE tickets for only 25,000 miles" (Yes, they still claim FREE tickets)...
and if the bulk of the new members give DL some business, but never accumulate the considerably more than 25,000 miles necessary to gain two tickets (after all, how many people want to go someplace alone?)...
and, if a considerable portion of the awarded miles expire anyway...
and if the bulk of the new members give DL some business, but never accumulate the considerably more than 25,000 miles necessary to gain two tickets (after all, how many people want to go someplace alone?)...
and, if a considerable portion of the awarded miles expire anyway...
But it is not like Delta puts a gun to their heads.
Sep 2, 2009, 6:22 am
#186
Join Date: Oct 2005
Programs: AA lifetime Plat; DL Platinum & Black Reserve
Posts: 22
any final answer on Black Reserve upgrade power?
I asked 4 people at work today. 3 people agreed with me, one agreed with you. I emailed a department that handles these kind of questions, so as soon as I hear back from them I will let you know.
I wish I did get credit for this! If I had a direct line I would certainly give it to all of you to call ME and I would transfer you to amex! If some of you don't believe me, that's ok, you don't have to. I just want the correct information to be out there, and if I misunderstood the way it works, I will still tell you what I find out.
I was never under the impression that the reserve card worked the way you all say here. From the way I understood it, if 2 PMs in L are on the list, time of check in is the tie breaker, so I don't know why there would need to be another tie breaker. Delta doesn't usually give us wrong information just to get the transfer to AMEX so I'm not sure why they would put us all under that impression.
The reason I mention to call AMEX if you don't believe me is that in order to get someone to sign up for the card I am pretty sure they are going to be the most familiar with how the benefits of the card work. However, like I said before I will find out what I can and let you know!
I wish I did get credit for this! If I had a direct line I would certainly give it to all of you to call ME and I would transfer you to amex! If some of you don't believe me, that's ok, you don't have to. I just want the correct information to be out there, and if I misunderstood the way it works, I will still tell you what I find out.
I was never under the impression that the reserve card worked the way you all say here. From the way I understood it, if 2 PMs in L are on the list, time of check in is the tie breaker, so I don't know why there would need to be another tie breaker. Delta doesn't usually give us wrong information just to get the transfer to AMEX so I'm not sure why they would put us all under that impression.
The reason I mention to call AMEX if you don't believe me is that in order to get someone to sign up for the card I am pretty sure they are going to be the most familiar with how the benefits of the card work. However, like I said before I will find out what I can and let you know!
Sep 2, 2009, 6:34 am
#187
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Ponte Vedra Beach, FL
Programs: DL PM, HH Diamond, Fairmont Prem, SPG Gold, Priority Club Plat/IC Amb, AmEx Plat
Posts: 10,839
Sep 3, 2009, 7:52 pm
#188
Join Date: Apr 2009
Programs: DL skymiles
Posts: 37
I asked around the office, and 90% of the people I asked agreed with me (PM/IP L clears before a PM M) but I don't have a 100% answer for you. There are a few more people I plan on asking that I haven't seen yet, so when/if I find anything else out I will pass it on. Sorry I don't have a for definite answer!
Sep 3, 2009, 9:03 pm
#189
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Beverly Hills, CA
Programs: DL DM & 2MM, UA-PE, AA
Posts: 1,074
PM saturation is definitely here:
Even with the AMEX-Reserve card, I am No.10 out of 24 on the upgrade list for LAX-ATL and only 3 available F seats! Now I know where all the silvers and golds are...
Even with the AMEX-Reserve card, I am No.10 out of 24 on the upgrade list for LAX-ATL and only 3 available F seats! Now I know where all the silvers and golds are...
Sep 3, 2009, 9:09 pm
#190
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Auckland, NZ/New York, NY/ATL
Programs: DL DM MM, BIS 2.4MM, EK Gold, SQ Gold, Marriott Gold, HH Gold,
Posts: 5,222
2. What fare are you on?
Sep 3, 2009, 9:10 pm
#191
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Ponte Vedra Beach, FL
Programs: DL PM, HH Diamond, Fairmont Prem, SPG Gold, Priority Club Plat/IC Amb, AmEx Plat
Posts: 10,839
Edit: Does that mean that DP-340 had 9 other DL Reserve card holders ahead in the upgrade list? As that's what DLgrl has implied.
Sep 3, 2009, 9:20 pm
#192
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: SoCal
Posts: 676
+1. Last week I was PM Reserve and 20th on the UPG list on this route---obviously not jumping over higher fare classes. That's why I maintain EXP on AA---I use DL for certain routes, but if I'm interested in a UPG on a certain trip, I book on AA. I fly on busy days at busy times, so YMMV, of course....and quite frankly, DL exit rows are not bad at all in Y!
Sep 3, 2009, 9:59 pm
#193
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Beverly Hills, CA
Programs: DL DM & 2MM, UA-PE, AA
Posts: 1,074
I have seen 60+, but I was typically in the top 20% (without the Reserve card). What surprises me is not that I was not upgraded; what surprises me is to be 10/24! That means that there is relatively few Silvers, Golds and PMs without reserve behind me. Hence, PM saturation, and the need for DM to have a chance at upgrades next year... In other words, DM will be the new PM...