Super small sample size, but my upgrades in the last 6 months have been almost non-existent as a DM and my position on the upgrade list has gone from 1-3 where it usually was for all flights not to SFO or ATL to now regularly finding myself in positions 10-15 with no chance at clearing for first class. I fly out of DTW and also have the Reserve card and regularly buy somewhat expensive fares. Not sure what's been going on lately...maybe it's market specific.

Paying for F or J, so long as you don't care which carrier you fly, can often be done for reasonable money. Since I've started buying premium cabins, I'm saving lots of time by buying the routing with the shortest transit time instead of accepting some convoluted routing just so I can to use my upgrade instruments, and my travel spend has only gone up around 30% overall. On a recent Tokyo flight, I got an East Coast to HND flight on UA in J for ~4.5K when DL was around 5.6K. My UA PlusPoints UG rate has gone to Hell in the last 2 years, so I'm really only shopping for the best cash deal these days.

I don't think anyone should be arguing that being DM is completely valueless. If DL came to me tomorrow and offered me DM status for free after my DL status has expired, I'd obviously take it. But the opportunity cost you incur of buying DL flights and being locked into their ecosystem as opposed to potentially spending less if you can just choose the cheapest carrier, flying more direct flights in certain cases as opposed to one-stop routings if you're only flying DL, and spending on a DL credit card versus a more lucrative and/or flexible alternative is very meaningful for other people and might be more costly than the benefits of being a DM.

I know. It is amazing how the airlines have us trained to beg for treats and tricks just for the minimal rewards they offer.

I will list the various arguments we will hear:

1. I am hub captive!
2. It is not that bad. I still get lots ouf upgrades! I just have to be creative in how I fly.
3. Status is still worth a lot! I use everything.

The fact is that there are lots of choices out there. The airlines are trying to walk a tightrope of maximizing revenue while maintaining the mystique of status. They try and do things like C+ upgrades and certificates while simultaneously trying to make sure they get every dollar out of a customer they can. Even when there is availability there is always someone trying to move to the front of the line using any trick in the book. Basically, whoever works the hardest gets the status, not the person who spends the most.

If I have to work to get something, it has less value to me. 90% monetization of F is not going to cut it. C+ is not that big a deal either. I have flown Y in the back often due to flight changes or last minute purchases. Big deal. After hundreds of flights all over the world I figured out that google flights is the airline killer. Find the best fare at the class of service desired and go. I am in MCO right now with my daughter. We flew here in Y in the back (no C+). I do not remember it. I forgot about it 2 min after walking off the plane. I do remember the lounge in ATL B - overcrowded on a tuesday at 2 PM.

Get me there fast in the class of service I purchased. That is all I need from them. They can keep their miles and other "perks". I would rather spend less time on an airplane then fly on a saturday night or at 5 am on a wednesday.

So, you’re kind of saying a version of #1 above. As a hub captive, DL is the only airline that gets me from ATL-TYS/SAV/PNS/CHS faster than I can drive.

No, I am saying that hub captive is choice.

I live in DEN. That is a UA hub and I do fly UA from time to time. I have been 1K for about five years in addition to DL. Theoretically I would have concentrated my flying on UA and been GS (which I likely could have hit). I would have spent at least another 15k a year had I done that though. Many of my neighbors do just that using the hub captive argument. If you want to claim that being hub captive means you have to fly DL feel free. But that is an illusion. The rest of us do not have to believe that anyone is hub captive. It is a choice. Everyone makes them and lives with them.

Presumably all elites are elites because of the perceived value of the program. I am saying there is no real lasting value in the program. I am upgraded WAY MORE on DL than UA when I fly out of DEN. But then I have to switch planes. And that can add time and create room for more delays. Conversely I could overpay on UA for the few hours I save knowing I will sit in C+. I fly on OPM/My money so sometimes value is more important than time and sometimes I need the flexibility of more options to travel.

This year I will drop to Plat on DL and Gold on UA. I am content with that. My days of flying like a lunatic are over thank goodness. Last year I went to asia 10 times, europe three times and africa once mostly in J but not always. It finally became too much. I can see hitting 2MM on DL and 1MM on UA in the next few years. Now I actively work to not fly for work if I can avoid it. I find the extra time raising my daughter to be more than worth the :"sacrifice" of not having elite status.

This is sort of true but you've completely ignored a huge pieec of the calculation (for most people, at least) and that's the value of your time. Most people you're saying are bellyachers are, for practical purposes, hub captive and pay the higher fares because their time isn't worthless.

I think DM is useless. I have been DM for 11 years. Late last year I gave up on continuing with my Delta loyalty. The constant roll backs of benefits and service at every level is just sad. I used to really enjoy flying Delta and that's after flying 1k at United for 4 years prior.

This year I've split my flights on the three major airlines and had an equally frustrating experience. Quality customer service no longer exists.

United always has a better value for spending miles for flights. Delta has horrible redemption values. The Delta app is the worst. It has become worse over the last two years. If not for the Diamond customer service line, Delta's IT would grind everything to a halt. The DM line might be the only good thing happening, but it wouldn't be necessary if IT new how to code the app.

I flew Delta every week for 11 years. Now I dread traveling. Looking forward to staying home more.

Interesting tidbit- I fly SEA-YVR frequently. As a DM, a first class upgrade usually clears, either at the maximum window or sometime before check in. Lately, even with 5-8 open seats in FC, the upgrade has gone to the gate. Last night, for the first time, I had a buy-up offer at check in, that reminded me of flying on AA.

I agree with most of what you're saying here but I don't think any of this is very related to DM specifically. As you pointed out, flying is a bad experience period right now regardless of which (US) airline you're on, and Delta's app being particularly bad (and getting worse by the day, it seems) isn't really connected to status.

Mostly, flying on US airlines is a bad experience for elites right now because the market conditions have made it such that airlines don't really need elites at the moment. There are (still) tons of leisure travelers who (still) aren't very price sensitive and (most importantly) aren't demanding anything in the way of perqs. In this market, airlines honestly would prefer that elites went somewhere else as they're filling the planes regardless and they don't have to give away a bunch of expensive perqs to do it. Until the market changes (which feels like it could be really, really soon) the treatment of elites won't improve.

I am perpetually confused by these arguments that seem to imply it is normal to (or many people do) fly circuitous routings, pay thousands extra, or whatever just for "loyalty" and "status". This seems insane to me. In most situations, I would expect one carrier to present a broadly favorable offering of price and schedule. Presumably this, not "status", is why you focus on a specific carrier to begin with.

After that, status provides a decent incentive to prefer that carrier. I am an MSP "hub captive". Much of the time there is no realistic choice but to fly Delta, because only Delta serves my destination nonstop, or Delta does so with many times the frequency. Then, with Delta status, I am going to prefer to fly Delta MSP-CHI even if it's $40 more than UA or AA because I can get free C+ and a decent shot at an upgrade to F. Or on a longer flight with head-to-head competition (say MSP-SFO, although the UA schedule is pretty borderline to be "competition"), Delta offers an effective $500 discount to me because I can clear my RUCs, so again I choose Delta. Flying to Europe, where *A actually is very competitive even out of a DL hub, DL offers me a $3,000 discount by use of my GUCs. Again, advantage Delta.

That's the "use" of status that I see, and in the end it has quite a bit of tangible value. But the only reason I am compounding on Delta in the first place is because I have no choice but to choose Delta if I am flying MSP-SAN, MSP-LAS, MSP-LAX, and so-on.

But this a contradiction with this quote saying that your time is valuable, which would preclude some of the LCCs and infrequent nonstops on other airlines.

Hub flying ex-DEN, ORD, LAX, SEA is different than ex-ATL, CLT, MIA, PHL. You have several airlines as a choice as a DEN flyer. WN, F9, and UA all have a solid presence. DEN-BNA has 3 airlines flying 11 flights a day. WN and UA have roughly equal numbers with a token F9 flight. ATL-BNA is dominated by one airline flying 13 flights (10 on DL, 3 on WN). DEN-STL has 11 flights on 3 airlines (1 F9, 6 WN, and 4 UA) and ATL-STL has 14 flights a day (1 F9, 9 DL, and 4 WN).

I agree that there is a choice... a DEN flyer can choose to fly UA, WN, or F9 nonstop to a variety of places, or can connect using another airline. An ATL flyer can choose to fly DL or connect... alternative nonstops are limited.

I think your assumption is incorrect. I'd be an elite on DL even if the only thing I got was a luggage tag because I live in ATL and am a hub captive who will take a nonstop vs taking a stop somewhere. A lot of my flights are ATL-TYS/BNA/CVG/JAX/SAV/MYR... you get my drift. A stop on my flight to CVG takes a 60 minute flight and adds 150% to that duration. A stop flying ATL-TYS makes driving an attractive option.

How many elites are elites because of the perceived value? Less than 100%... it's probably geographically dependent. A NYC elite is there because they are making a choice. Same with a SEA elite. But it's less true for others.

Hub captive, SLC here. Overall and as it relates to upgrades, i find that this year has yielded much higher percentage of upgrades since now MM status supercedes other levels/tiebreakers. The CBs are great, IMO, and i appreciate the added benefits/choices offer over the last year. My wife is PL and she does note that it takes a few more minutes for her calls to be answered overall than mine calling in as DM which is good to know. I do find that in times of IROPS etc, contacting a DL agent is always helpful with getting back up bookings in place etc. Unsure if that is same for all Skymiles members but just anecdotal on my side.

Agree… this year has been good. As a 2mm, I generally find myself at the top of the upgrade pile. Sadly, that’s all about to end. Increasingly, people will game the C+ purchase and the “experience” tier. This now takes priority over the most loyal customers. It’s too bad really. A lifetime (literally) of loyalty no longer matters. Now its all about the few extra bucks from an “experience” which is literally no different from any other cattle-car seat.

There are lots more choices out of DEN than the carriers you mention. AA, DL, AF, BA, LH, and TK all fly out of DEN too. I can choose many airlines to fly to many places. I believe in ATL there is the same set of airlines (if not more).

You seem fixated on nonstops. If that is the case, that is fine. It is what you value and no one should give a hard time about what you choose to value. Personally sometimes I care, sometimes I don't. Non stops are very nice when I can get them. But I do not always use that as my primary decision making point. Particularly if i have to change planes no matter what. When I was flying heavy I usually had to change planes. For instance I would often fly DEN-DEL. I had a choice - change twice or three times. If I flew DL it was three. If I flew AF/UA/LH it was two. I was ambivalent since the itineraries were within a few hours of travel time. I often chose class of service over plane changes. The least important thing when I booked was alliance/airline. I did prefer to stay *A/ST but when it came down to it I would fly BA if it made sense.

If I flew domestic heavy I would probably have a slightly different opinion. Even then, gold on both UA and DL would be better than Plat on ether airline alone. For me having choices was more important. Sometimes my time was critical and I needed to be there immediately. Sometimes I could take a second leg. UA still has a segment requirement for status. That meant I was often better switching planes on UA. On DL it didn't matter.

I assure you multiple airlines can take you to your destinations out of ATL. I have no issue if someone tells me the fly DL because they prefer it above others. I understand the allure of non-stops. Many times I prefer them. However, I won't agree that there are no other choices. There are always choices. No one is a victim here. As a potential hub captive out of DEN I found that with little difficulty I could get around. Even domestically.

Going all the way back to the original question - diamond is indeed useless to anyone who has the willingness to purchase the class of service and schedule one likes. In your case you could fly DL to the cities you mention but another carrier for international flights. I often did something like that. The last few years it just so happened that I landed status due to the sheer volume of travel. I spent more time on partner airlines than I did on DL or UA metal. I found it to be both cheaper and easier to jump AF to CDG and then another AF flight to wherever I need to go. Sometimes DL would have the same itinerary, but it was almost universally more. same goes for TK and LH. Both had great networks and better pricing.

I was worried when I did this that I would miss c+, early boarding, and the other perceived perks of status. Personally I did not. I found that flying DL or UA to LAX, SEA, ORD, or JFK would allow me to jump a flight on an international carrier that had better service and a better hard product. It was cheaper and easier to book two tickets in those instances than to try and book through on DL or UA. The positioning flight was nothing and I did not miss a thing.