New BOS hub and proximity to NYC
Jul 29, 2019, 2:05 pm
#16
Join Date: May 2009
Location: SEA
Programs: AS MVPG, DL FO, Marriott Gold, Hertz 5 Whatevers
Posts: 1,099
AS has PDX just 100 miles south of SEA and it works quite well in their network. I can’t see why DL can’t run hubs in both BOS and JFK. They’re just protecting their turf on TATL from B6 and can totally afford the investment in BOS. The numbers for DL at JFK have improved quite a bit as AA has retrenched in NYC, especially at JFK.
BOS has a fairly large O/D (as mentioned), , wealth, and a tech presence, which seem to fit the profile for DL’s picks for new hubs or focus cities.
BOS has a fairly large O/D (as mentioned), , wealth, and a tech presence, which seem to fit the profile for DL’s picks for new hubs or focus cities.
Jul 29, 2019, 2:06 pm
#17
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 597
I think Boston is kind of redefining the definition of a "Hub". The traditional Fortress Hubs (DTW/ATL/MSP/SLC) are built to efficiently transfer people from one flight to another and is less focused on O&D traffic. Why does Atlanta have 2 security checkpoints for 7 concourses? Because it is built to do efficient transfers.
Jul 29, 2019, 2:07 pm
#18
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: NYC
Programs: DL DM
Posts: 355
Jul 29, 2019, 2:31 pm
#19
Join Date: Feb 2017
Programs: DL DM, UA Gold, Alaska MVP, Bonvoy (lol) Ambassador
Posts: 2,994
A few problems with this.
TATL is VERY cyclical. Its highs are high but its lows are really low. The legacies a somewhat protected by this because they can cut back on the hub to point routes and focus capacity on hub-hub routes and still keep a presence in most Euro markets.
jetBlue wont be able to do this.
TATL is VERY cyclical. Its highs are high but its lows are really low. The legacies a somewhat protected by this because they can cut back on the hub to point routes and focus capacity on hub-hub routes and still keep a presence in most Euro markets.
jetBlue wont be able to do this.
I'm not sure I understand your wide body comparison. I certainly hope you don't think a 321 will out CASM a 787/A350/A330. There is a big reason why the 757 boom to Europe never really got off the ground outside of non-competitive mostly seasonal market places. Its a relatively safe way for jetBlue to stick their toe in the water with the worst case outcome being converting the 321LR/XLRs into regular domestic configurations (and i'd bet a MTOW de-rate.)
On your 757 comment - it was a very different marketplace at the time (international P2P was barely even a thing and the skies were dominated by quads), and the 757 writing was on the wall long before Continental started flying 757s from EWR.
The XLR is also a much more capable aircraft (and more comfortable too). From Boston, it can safely reach pretty much all of Europe except Eastern Europe (and Greece) - and if you're talking about a low density config, even further. A 757 in the winter from Newark would struggle to return from CDG unless in a low density configuration. The longest flight Continental was ever able to operate out of EWR was to ARN at under 4000 statute miles - and had frequent fuel stops on it. The XLR can safely run at 4500 statute miles with virtually no risk of fuel stops - that 500 miles makes a huge, huge difference (at a comparable level of operation risk, it could probably do about 4800 statute miles).
More importantly, jetBlue doesn't really have any name in Europe and is going to struggle to gain HVCs with loyalty/contracts to the legacy JVs. There is also zero chance JetBlue is going to be able to get the slots at prime airport at prime times to have a competitive schedule against the legacy JVs. Looking at a market like London, good luck getting 3-4 slots at LHR at prime time slots to be able to compete with the DL/VS and BA/AA JVs. Same deal with FRA, CDG, AMS, MUC etc. etc. Also B6 has a very long way to go product wise compared to the legacies. MINT is a pretty good Trans-con product but even it is severely lacking in areas compared to the US3.
Also, I'm not sure what you're talking about regarding the Mint product. It's way better than Delta's 767 fleet which makes up at least three-quarters of Delta's TATL flying.
Finally, the TransPac market is a completely different animal than the Transatlantic. Longer, a ton more fragmentation and far fewer dominate JV. More importantly, the largest emerging market place (China) has three of the largest carriers that are subsided by a government who has absolutely zero problem setting money on fire. Also, American and Delta are still very much building networks to Asia while United is the only US3 with an established network.
Jul 29, 2019, 2:35 pm
#20
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: New York
Programs: DL - PM (demoted with Amex waiver increase) and 1 MM
Posts: 71
It was an A319 that was supposed to go to LGA from MSP but was diverted to JFK.
The flight arrived at C61 in T2 and "departed" from B18 in T4. Dedicated bus from gate to gate??
Seems Delta had a spare A319 at JFK and wanted to maintain the rest of the schedule.
The flight arrived at C61 in T2 and "departed" from B18 in T4. Dedicated bus from gate to gate??
Seems Delta had a spare A319 at JFK and wanted to maintain the rest of the schedule.
Jul 29, 2019, 2:38 pm
#21
Join Date: Feb 2017
Programs: DL DM, UA Gold, Alaska MVP, Bonvoy (lol) Ambassador
Posts: 2,994
That would be a fun flight to ride on. My current shortest flight is Vancouver to Seattle.. LGA-JFK would beat that by an order of magnitude or so.
Jul 29, 2019, 4:09 pm
#22
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2013
Programs: DL PM, MR Titanium/LTP, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 10,130
Prefer it ex-RDU when going via the CDG direct isn't an option.
For work travel which is always Y it means a shorter TATL flight which means less BIS time which I welcome.
In fact flying it in a few weeks on LHR - BOS - RDU because I don't want to get up for the 6am required to make it to CDG for the RDU direct but will still get back to RDU before 5pm with a 940am departure from LHR (plus VS Clubhouse access which can't be overlooked
) -- but still get DL metal which means A330 C+
For work travel which is always Y it means a shorter TATL flight which means less BIS time which I welcome.
In fact flying it in a few weeks on LHR - BOS - RDU because I don't want to get up for the 6am required to make it to CDG for the RDU direct but will still get back to RDU before 5pm with a 940am departure from LHR (plus VS Clubhouse access which can't be overlooked
) -- but still get DL metal which means A330 C+
Jul 29, 2019, 4:37 pm
#23
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 5,185
I did BUF>YYZ during a weather divert to get fuel. Not even 10 minutes in the air.
Jul 29, 2019, 7:39 pm
#24
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It's a shame that the early RDU-BOS can't quite connect to either the BOS or JFK VS daytime flights. I'd much rather wake up in my own bed at 3am and tell myself that it's 8am in London. You can do it with UA at EWR or AC at YYZ, but UA doesn't have PE and AC requires an infernal CR2.
Jul 29, 2019, 7:48 pm
#25
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 5,185
It's a shame that the early RDU-BOS can't quite connect to either the BOS or JFK VS daytime flights. I'd much rather wake up in my own bed at 3am and tell myself that it's 8am in London. You can do it with UA at EWR or AC at YYZ, but UA doesn't have PE and AC requires an infernal CR2.
Jul 29, 2019, 7:51 pm
#26
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Jul 29, 2019, 9:21 pm
#27
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: IAH / HOU
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Posts: 2,853
It's a shame that the early RDU-BOS can't quite connect to either the BOS or JFK VS daytime flights. I'd much rather wake up in my own bed at 3am and tell myself that it's 8am in London. You can do it with UA at EWR or AC at YYZ, but UA doesn't have PE and AC requires an infernal CR2.
Jul 29, 2019, 10:15 pm
#28
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Join Date: Mar 2013
Programs: DL PM, MR Titanium/LTP, Hilton Diamond
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It's a shame that the early RDU-BOS can't quite connect to either the BOS or JFK VS daytime flights. I'd much rather wake up in my own bed at 3am and tell myself that it's 8am in London. You can do it with UA at EWR or AC at YYZ, but UA doesn't have PE and AC requires an infernal CR2.
This same trip I get back from South America from a personal vacation trip and my London event isn't until 2 days later but due to lack of daytime DL/VS option from RDU I've got to head to London the same evening 8 hours after getting back to RDU from SCL -- and connect through to the late night JFK-LHR flight to maximize my time at home to change clothes and re-pack
Jul 30, 2019, 6:07 am
#29
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 5,185
Jul 30, 2019, 6:40 am
#30
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: NYC/Northern NJ
Programs: 1K - UAL, Platinum DL, Marriott, Hilton, SPG
Posts: 1,815
Smart chess move by Delta.
Reminder - the Iceland routes by WOW, IcelandAir which lost all advantage once the bigger carriers took away market share.
JetBlue will have a hard time with TATL on a narrow-body if Delta can offer premium service, better schedule options, multiple sales and connections galore. The casual 1x per year traveler won't sustain the route for JetBlue vs. business contracts via Delta or connections.
Reminder - the Iceland routes by WOW, IcelandAir which lost all advantage once the bigger carriers took away market share.
JetBlue will have a hard time with TATL on a narrow-body if Delta can offer premium service, better schedule options, multiple sales and connections galore. The casual 1x per year traveler won't sustain the route for JetBlue vs. business contracts via Delta or connections.