Pianoman109876

I’m a bit curious about Delta’s decision to turn Boston into a hub, given the proximity to LGA/JFK. I understand that gates at NYC airports are limited, and that BOS could become a new TATL gateway. But hasn’t Delta gotten rid of hubs in the past that we’re too close together? I’m thinking of MEM and CVG, for example.

Is the TATL gateway potential what makes this different?

kop84

The O/D potential in BOS is far larger than the O/D in MEM or CVG. BOS is a hub really by default. It's all about the O/D for DL there, but they added so many flights that one can connect if BOS if you want.

koreanair720

Does DL offer any flights out of BOS that it doesn't out if new York?

MSPeconomist

hi55us

Not really that I can think of, New York actually offers more to "secondary" European markets like BRU/BCN/PRG that aren't serviced out of Boston.

The Hubbing of Boston really has to do with blocking out Jet Blue from eating their lunch on TATL flights. Delta has a big head start and is not looking to be complacent.

I think Boston is kind of redefining the definition of a "Hub". The traditional Fortress Hubs (DTW/ATL/MSP/SLC) are built to efficiently transfer people from one flight to another and is less focused on O&D traffic. Why does Atlanta have 2 security checkpoints for 7 concourses? Because it is built to do efficient transfers.

Boston is going to be more of a focus on O&D (since AA/UA have just about written it off) with a small percentage of travelers connecting on to Europe and other points in the US.

ethernal

Boston's CSA (better than MSA for airport catchment area in my opinion - people will drive an extra 60 minutes for a nonstop flight) is 8 million people. New York City's CSA is about 22 million. Other than NYC, only LA, Chicago, and DC are larger than Boston. Oh, and they're rich - only beaten out by San Francisco/San Jose, Seattle, and DC by per capita income.

Delta's bigger concern is probably more on how to deal with Jetblue than having two "hubs" (both of which are O&D focused - JFK is the only true hub, and it is primarily an international hub and not a domestic one).

LoganFlyer

Yes--to JFK and LGA, and soon to EWR . #tooEasy

ethernal

Hey, you laugh but there would be real value to an LGA/JFK-EWR flight during rush hour...

TuxTom

I'll agree with others in that this is largely about staying competitive with B6 and WN, especially once the former gets their TATL ops up and running. AA/UA pretty much only serve their own hubs these days and their respective alliances just gave the basic international hubs. By 'hubbing' BOS, they're able to capture the sizable O/D demand as well as offer a few more 1-stop TATL options for a number of city pairs.

koreanair720

pwned (do the kids say that anymore??)

rylan

Looks like the competition between DL and B6 is going to be good for us BOS residents. Looking forward to more routes

And maybe with the upcoming tatl B6 service it will keep some of the insane prices down.

Dawgfan6291

look at the sizes of the cities. NYC is NYC, BOS is a large market that is growing quickly.

Delta has always had a thing for Boston, going back to the days of the Northeast merger. Now that American is down to just hubs for the most part, he market place is ripe for a legacy to come in some kind of presence.
I don't believe this. With or without Delta, B6 is going to have a ton of issues to Europe. Every market that is logical for them to fly is generally covered from Boston and has multiple airlines to New York. Slots to the bigger airports are hard to find and most of the hub carriers t those airports have JV airlines in the US they will work with over B6. jetBlue will be bleeding money for a long time in the TATL market, unless they go after low hanging fruit with little to no competition. Major markets like LON/AMS/CDG/MAD/FRA/FCO/MUC/ZRH/BRU etc. that are covered by one of the 3 JVs (at least) will be a hard hill to climb.

More importantly, I don't believe Delta adding BOS-ORD really helps them in the BOS-TATL market place.
A JFK-LGA flight on Delta sure would solve connection issues.

SOBE ER DOC

I think it'll be interesting to see how this plays out. DL is going to give B6 a run for their money and they have the capital to wait this out a bit. I remember folks saying that DL would struggle in SEA against AS and the loyalty they have amassed. A few years in and there seems to be a balance there. We'll see how this goes.

ethernal

I agree that Delta is not doing this to control B6, but I could go either way on Jetblue's success in Europe.

The economics of flying a next generation (I guess now they're current generation) narrowbody TATL are pretty darn good compared to an over-ranged widebody with old engines. And, unlike some P2P competitors (think a Norwegian, although they are flying widebodies), jetBlue has some decent hub connectivity that will let them manage load and yield during quieter days.

Generally speaking, TATL yields are very good for airlines - mostly because there is a pretty strong oligopoly between the US3 and their anti-competitive joint ventures. If TPAC is in a glut from all of the APAC challengers, TATL is the opposite with the old guard doing (perfectly legal) tacit collusion on price.

Think of it this way. BOS-CDG is about the same flight duration as JFK-SEA or MIA-SEA. Those can be had for sub-30 day booking for only $400-450. Nonstops on Delta shoot up to $1000+ ($1400+ for <30 day booking). That's a lot of price arbitrage at play (yes, there are some international taxes of course, but that's only a tiny fraction of the price difference).

Dawgfan6291

A few problems with this.

TATL is VERY cyclical. Its highs are high but its lows are really low. The legacies a somewhat protected by this because they can cut back on the hub to point routes and focus capacity on hub-hub routes and still keep a presence in most Euro markets.
jetBlue wont be able to do this.

I'm not sure I understand your wide body comparison. I certainly hope you don't think a 321 will out CASM a 787/A350/A330. There is a big reason why the 757 boom to Europe never really got off the ground outside of non-competitive mostly seasonal market places. Its a relatively safe way for jetBlue to stick their toe in the water with the worst case outcome being converting the 321LR/XLRs into regular domestic configurations (and i'd bet a MTOW de-rate.)

More importantly, jetBlue doesn't really have any name in Europe and is going to struggle to gain HVCs with loyalty/contracts to the legacy JVs. There is also zero chance JetBlue is going to be able to get the slots at prime airport at prime times to have a competitive schedule against the legacy JVs. Looking at a market like London, good luck getting 3-4 slots at LHR at prime time slots to be able to compete with the DL/VS and BA/AA JVs. Same deal with FRA, CDG, AMS, MUC etc. etc. Also B6 has a very long way to go product wise compared to the legacies. MINT is a pretty good Trans-con product but even it is severely lacking in areas compared to the US3.

Finally, the TransPac market is a completely different animal than the Transatlantic. Longer, a ton more fragmentation and far fewer dominate JV. More importantly, the largest emerging market place (China) has three of the largest carriers that are subsided by a government who has absolutely zero problem setting money on fire. Also, American and Delta are still very much building networks to Asia while United is the only US3 with an established network.