DL flight 1297 SAT>ATL personal device battery fire 02/27/19 on runway
Mar 1, 2019, 5:44 am
#31
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To even get a product into the US and through shipping channels, they absolutely have to pass UN/DOT 38.3 standards as a matter of law unless they want to be treated as top class hazardous materials (which they don't - it's too expensive). Individual shippers in the US will almost certainly require compliance to - at a minimum - IEC 62133.
The US regulatory environment around consumer safety is complex (much of it is liability driven rather than explicit regulation driven) - in practice, the outcome is that virtually every battery sold in the US by a reputable dealer to a consumer will meet UL 2054 standards - a very strong standard that extends beyond IEC 62133 and mostly guarantees that - barring manufacturing defects - your battery will be safe in most cases.
You're a fool if you don't believe that - while not perfect - these standards prevent most sub-standard batteries from being sold in the US. Unfortunately there is a subset of the market that does not meet these standards (generally illegally and through fraudulent documentation at import) which is a driver of battery fires.
Fly by night manufacturers in China that sell in the Chinese market - and when I say manufacturers they are generally assemblers - will buy sub-standard materials, poor controllers, and overvolt the cells by default to raise capacity at purchase. If you don't believe there is a difference between that and (authentic) batteries that make it through the supply chain to US consumers.
More lol
Amazon is a vendor. There are cheap crap batteris sold everywhere. You wanna believe "amazon" is the problem, go for it.
I can buy Dell and Anker power components off amazon...unsafe? Just silly.
Amazon is a vendor. There are cheap crap batteris sold everywhere. You wanna believe "amazon" is the problem, go for it.
I can buy Dell and Anker power components off amazon...unsafe? Just silly.
Your snide remarks show your ignorance of the battery market or supply chains in general. I am curious as to your credentials that make you feel like you're an expert in this space.
Mar 1, 2019, 6:19 am
#32
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Worst posts ever.
Are you like that guy who would have rushed into a school unarmed to stop a shooter?
[I am a former F/A - OP did exactly the right thing in this situation. Sounds like the crew did too.]
Are you like that guy who would have rushed into a school unarmed to stop a shooter?
[I am a former F/A - OP did exactly the right thing in this situation. Sounds like the crew did too.]
Mar 1, 2019, 6:35 am
#33
Formerly known as scootr29
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Worst posts ever.
Are you like that guy who would have rushed into a school unarmed to stop a shooter?
[I am a former F/A - OP did exactly the right thing in this situation. Sounds like the crew did too.]
Are you like that guy who would have rushed into a school unarmed to stop a shooter?
[I am a former F/A - OP did exactly the right thing in this situation. Sounds like the crew did too.]
Mar 1, 2019, 6:45 am
#35
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Of course. But in this case it sounds like OP had done anything else, he would just have been in the way.
Mar 1, 2019, 7:31 am
#36
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Almost all li-ion battery manufacturing is done in East Asia. That said, at least as of 2017 or so, the majority of lithium ion input production is still done outside of China (although this is rapidly shifting and China will be majority-manufacturer soon), primarily in places like Japan and Korea with major manufacturers being Samsung, LG Chem, Panasonic, Toshiba, and so on. Even this, however is a simplistic view. The li-ion supply chain is complex, with different manufacturing components done by different groups (e.g., anode and cathode material, electrode foils, separators, controller boards, and so on).
To even get a product into the US and through shipping channels, they absolutely have to pass UN/DOT 38.3 standards as a matter of law unless they want to be treated as top class hazardous materials (which they don't - it's too expensive). Individual shippers in the US will almost certainly require compliance to - at a minimum - IEC 62133.
The US regulatory environment around consumer safety is complex (much of it is liability driven rather than explicit regulation driven) - in practice, the outcome is that virtually every battery sold in the US by a reputable dealer to a consumer will meet UL 2054 standards - a very strong standard that extends beyond IEC 62133 and mostly guarantees that - barring manufacturing defects - your battery will be safe in most cases.
You're a fool if you don't believe that - while not perfect - these standards prevent most sub-standard batteries from being sold in the US. Unfortunately there is a subset of the market that does not meet these standards (generally illegally and through fraudulent documentation at import) which is a driver of battery fires.
Fly by night manufacturers in China that sell in the Chinese market - and when I say manufacturers they are generally assemblers - will buy sub-standard materials, poor controllers, and overvolt the cells by default to raise capacity at purchase. If you don't believe there is a difference between that and (authentic) batteries that make it through the supply chain to US consumers.
To even get a product into the US and through shipping channels, they absolutely have to pass UN/DOT 38.3 standards as a matter of law unless they want to be treated as top class hazardous materials (which they don't - it's too expensive). Individual shippers in the US will almost certainly require compliance to - at a minimum - IEC 62133.
The US regulatory environment around consumer safety is complex (much of it is liability driven rather than explicit regulation driven) - in practice, the outcome is that virtually every battery sold in the US by a reputable dealer to a consumer will meet UL 2054 standards - a very strong standard that extends beyond IEC 62133 and mostly guarantees that - barring manufacturing defects - your battery will be safe in most cases.
You're a fool if you don't believe that - while not perfect - these standards prevent most sub-standard batteries from being sold in the US. Unfortunately there is a subset of the market that does not meet these standards (generally illegally and through fraudulent documentation at import) which is a driver of battery fires.
Fly by night manufacturers in China that sell in the Chinese market - and when I say manufacturers they are generally assemblers - will buy sub-standard materials, poor controllers, and overvolt the cells by default to raise capacity at purchase. If you don't believe there is a difference between that and (authentic) batteries that make it through the supply chain to US consumers.
Keith
Mar 1, 2019, 7:43 am
#37
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If OP was in the aisle bulkhead seat right across from the aisle bulkhead seat that was the source of the fire, I agree with the OP's instinct to get out of the way by walking quickly back toward coach, assuming that FAs weren't simultaneously rushing up toward the FC cabin to fight the fire. The space of the OP's seat would somewhat have helped multiple crew have room to maneuver in dealing with the fire. There would have been no advantage to the OP's remaining seated and therefore close to not only the fire but also to whatever chemicals might have been used to fight the fire. If there were obvious empty seats in coach, it would have been graceful to politely and quickly take such a seat with little fuss, otherwise perhaps the OP could have waited in the coach galley or in whatever space was available around lavatories or around any "infinite legroom" bulkhead seats. Obviously the OP should have avoided screaming or somehow behaving in a way that could induce panic among other passengers.
Mar 1, 2019, 7:59 am
#38
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Hi Everyone,
Thanks to those who have offered valid insight and information.
To be clear, when the fire began and 1B guy threw the bag on the floor, the bag was 1 1/2 ft from my feet. I had NO idea what was in the bag. I figured it was some type of electronics; however, I didn't know exactly what was in the bag until the bag/batteries were thrown out by the pilot. I asked the 1B guy what was in the bag.
I didn't panic. I didn't scream. Once the galley and my space was filling with smoke, I couldn't BREATHE! I grabbed my blanket and held over my nose and mouth and walked/ran to the center of coach. The flight was full with no empty seats. The coach passengers had NO idea what was going on (I'm sure C+ did). I stood sideways so the rear FA could pass me. She had to ask me what was going on and then ran to the front to help. It was much more advantageous for me to get out of the way versus try to help. I didn't even know what the heck the bag contained and no idea what to do. Better left to the professionals who have had training.
I'm emailing my letter to Delta today. I have no idea what the reply will be; however, I'm happy to share it here.
Safe travels,
Thanks to those who have offered valid insight and information.
To be clear, when the fire began and 1B guy threw the bag on the floor, the bag was 1 1/2 ft from my feet. I had NO idea what was in the bag. I figured it was some type of electronics; however, I didn't know exactly what was in the bag until the bag/batteries were thrown out by the pilot. I asked the 1B guy what was in the bag.
I didn't panic. I didn't scream. Once the galley and my space was filling with smoke, I couldn't BREATHE! I grabbed my blanket and held over my nose and mouth and walked/ran to the center of coach. The flight was full with no empty seats. The coach passengers had NO idea what was going on (I'm sure C+ did). I stood sideways so the rear FA could pass me. She had to ask me what was going on and then ran to the front to help. It was much more advantageous for me to get out of the way versus try to help. I didn't even know what the heck the bag contained and no idea what to do. Better left to the professionals who have had training.
I'm emailing my letter to Delta today. I have no idea what the reply will be; however, I'm happy to share it here.
Safe travels,
Last edited by babe11; Mar 1, 2019 at 9:05 am
Mar 1, 2019, 10:04 am
#39
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Mar 1, 2019, 10:25 am
#40
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 92
Thanks for the story: this is why those chargers are not allowed in the baggage compartment. I had an expensive charger (Mofi) that was a case for my iPhone - it started warping but still worked. I believe that damage to any brand of these batteries from dropping or otherwise could raise the risk of fire. (I stored this one in a cast-iron dutch oven before I could finally take it to a recycling center; am keeping an eye on the current one for warping.)
Mar 1, 2019, 10:54 am
#41
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Almost all li-ion battery manufacturing is done in East Asia. That said, at least as of 2017 or so, the majority of lithium ion input production is still done outside of China (although this is rapidly shifting and China will be majority-manufacturer soon), primarily in places like Japan and Korea with major manufacturers being Samsung, LG Chem, Panasonic, Toshiba, and so on. Even this, however is a simplistic view. The li-ion supply chain is complex, with different manufacturing components done by different groups (e.g., anode and cathode material, electrode foils, separators, controller boards, and so on).
To even get a product into the US and through shipping channels, they absolutely have to pass UN/DOT 38.3 standards as a matter of law unless they want to be treated as top class hazardous materials (which they don't - it's too expensive). Individual shippers in the US will almost certainly require compliance to - at a minimum - IEC 62133.
The US regulatory environment around consumer safety is complex (much of it is liability driven rather than explicit regulation driven) - in practice, the outcome is that virtually every battery sold in the US by a reputable dealer to a consumer will meet UL 2054 standards - a very strong standard that extends beyond IEC 62133 and mostly guarantees that - barring manufacturing defects - your battery will be safe in most cases.
You're a fool if you don't believe that - while not perfect - these standards prevent most sub-standard batteries from being sold in the US. Unfortunately there is a subset of the market that does not meet these standards (generally illegally and through fraudulent documentation at import) which is a driver of battery fires.
Fly by night manufacturers in China that sell in the Chinese market - and when I say manufacturers they are generally assemblers - will buy sub-standard materials, poor controllers, and overvolt the cells by default to raise capacity at purchase. If you don't believe there is a difference between that and (authentic) batteries that make it through the supply chain to US consumers.
Amazon is a vendor, and anything sold by Amazon I would generally trust as they are liable for supply chain integrity of the products they sell. Unfortunately most (if not all) of the sub-standard batteries sold on Amazon are not technically sold by Amazon - they are sold by third party sellers that use Amazon for fulfillment. The liability standard for this model is much lower, and so Amazon does not (and cannot) audit supply chains of third party sellers to the same extent they audit their own (they of course require compliance docs, but these are often fraudulent and they cannot audit every single seller). This is an evolving space, of course, and Amazon is working to clean up its act. But you need to understand the difference to understand how bad batteries flow through Amazon's fulfillment centers.
Your snide remarks show your ignorance of the battery market or supply chains in general. I am curious as to your credentials that make you feel like you're an expert in this space.
To even get a product into the US and through shipping channels, they absolutely have to pass UN/DOT 38.3 standards as a matter of law unless they want to be treated as top class hazardous materials (which they don't - it's too expensive). Individual shippers in the US will almost certainly require compliance to - at a minimum - IEC 62133.
The US regulatory environment around consumer safety is complex (much of it is liability driven rather than explicit regulation driven) - in practice, the outcome is that virtually every battery sold in the US by a reputable dealer to a consumer will meet UL 2054 standards - a very strong standard that extends beyond IEC 62133 and mostly guarantees that - barring manufacturing defects - your battery will be safe in most cases.
You're a fool if you don't believe that - while not perfect - these standards prevent most sub-standard batteries from being sold in the US. Unfortunately there is a subset of the market that does not meet these standards (generally illegally and through fraudulent documentation at import) which is a driver of battery fires.
Fly by night manufacturers in China that sell in the Chinese market - and when I say manufacturers they are generally assemblers - will buy sub-standard materials, poor controllers, and overvolt the cells by default to raise capacity at purchase. If you don't believe there is a difference between that and (authentic) batteries that make it through the supply chain to US consumers.
Amazon is a vendor, and anything sold by Amazon I would generally trust as they are liable for supply chain integrity of the products they sell. Unfortunately most (if not all) of the sub-standard batteries sold on Amazon are not technically sold by Amazon - they are sold by third party sellers that use Amazon for fulfillment. The liability standard for this model is much lower, and so Amazon does not (and cannot) audit supply chains of third party sellers to the same extent they audit their own (they of course require compliance docs, but these are often fraudulent and they cannot audit every single seller). This is an evolving space, of course, and Amazon is working to clean up its act. But you need to understand the difference to understand how bad batteries flow through Amazon's fulfillment centers.
Your snide remarks show your ignorance of the battery market or supply chains in general. I am curious as to your credentials that make you feel like you're an expert in this space.
You intimated that 'buying through amazon is the issue'
Now you are backtracking and citing (accurately) some of the regs around the issue.
Amzon IS a US channel. You say to get into a us channel it must pass "UN/DOT 38.3 standards" and "at a minimum - IEC 62133"... you dont reconcile this: amazon is a us shipper. to be a us shipper it must pass these standards...yet according to your post, the 'problem is buying through amazon'
You state "virtually every battery sold in the US by a reputable dealer to a consumer will meet UL 2054 standards"... why doesnt this apply to Amazon? Does this apply to best buy? What (in your mind) is the definition of a "reputable dealer"? (You do know that UL is a (a) voluntary standard, and (b) UL has harmonized to 1ec62133 with UL 62133)
We can agree the Lion supply chain is complex...but boiling ti down to the two comments you initially made? I stand by my LOLs
1. There are some crap, dangerous batteries made in china AND ELSEWHERE
2. You can buy crap on Amazon
3. You can buy crap at brick and mortar stores
3. You can ALSO buy the same high quality batteries on Amazon you buy elsewhere. Anker for one, IMO
Finally, I wont get into a pissing match over regulatory standards, spent 30 years doing that. My sole point was to blithely declare "not using amazon and buying from a US dealer" is insufficient advice
Mar 1, 2019, 11:01 am
#42
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This thread seems fairly well exhausted. If you want to continue it please turn down the heat and personal criticisms (including of the OP).
Travel Technology may be the right place for detailed discussions of issues and sourcing of chargers and powerbanks.
Travel Technology may be the right place for detailed discussions of issues and sourcing of chargers and powerbanks.
Mar 1, 2019, 4:38 pm
#43
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That's the nature of the DL forum often times - snark for the sake of snark. I can't imagine it was an easy experience for OP (thankfully it at least happened on the ground) and while many people on here think they do, they really don't know how they'd react in the same situation - I was on flight tests with fake smoke for flight test certification for smoke penetration on my previous program and and even that was a little daunting even knowing it was fake and knowing it was coming. I think OP's reaction all around (both on the flight and afterwards with the interest of writing to describe the experience and share it with appropriate authorities) is/was more than understandable. After all, one doesn't know what they don't know (and I don't mean it that way to put down OP at all - if you don't know because you haven't been exposed to something, you simply don't know). Even if OP's letter changes nothing or doesn't inform the investigating authorities of anything they didn't already know, at least OP knows they provided what they could as a "witness" to event.
Mar 1, 2019, 10:31 pm
#44
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Similarly, there are people who never miss an opportunity to criticize the actions of others on Flyertalk without even knowing the whole story.
Mar 1, 2019, 10:48 pm
#45
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