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Originally Posted by avidflyer
(Post 24698759)
I fully agree that booking an entire cabin to secure an upgrade is bordering on/potentially is fraud. I disagree on the hidden city example because the airline is flying there anyway and the fact that you are not in a seat for the last leg not only costs them nothing relative that flight it could end up saving them money if they needed seats for IROPs. The only thing it does do is expose their pricing scheme which puts them in a bad light.
The ALs DO take this very seriously and they are trying to shut down every app/website that will do it for you. Here is an example of one: https://skiplagged.com/ Needless to say this will be a battle but I think it is interesting to see how it shakes out... I purchased a RT ticket intra-Europe ticket this summer and will not be using the return ticket and don't consider it fraud. The Roundtrip ticket was almost half of what the fare was one way. |
Originally Posted by gooselee
(Post 24698702)
Ok..ok. "Fraudulent" was a poor word choice. Perhaps..."questionable"?
I think part of the issue is that buying a certain airfare is buying passage from A to C. B is included as part of the mechanism to get you to C, but is not actually part of the deal. Similar to the argument (right or wrong), that you are not guaranteed an aisle seat even though you are reserved one, you are just guaranteed something with a cushion and a seat belt somewhere in that cabin. If you were to buy a fare from A-B and then a separate fare B-C, then you can throw out whatever you want. Airline seat inventory spoils. There aren't many other products that behave in a similar way, so it's hard to find a good retail comparison. But the closest I can come up with is this: Buying an A-C fare and dumping half of it would be like buying a 2-liter of Coke, then trying to return half the bottle for the store to resell. Buying an A-B fare, then a B-C fare separately, is like buying two 1-liter bottles, then returning one of them for the store to resell. Doesn't quite work as an analogy since on a plane...that remaining seat is equally hard to resell, but it get to the point of a packaged product vs. two individual products that together produce the same result (2 liters of colored, fizzy sugar water). |
Originally Posted by javabytes
(Post 24699115)
If I have already paid for a seat A-B-C, what does it matter if the airline cannot resell my seat on B-C when I skip that leg? They've already made the money for that seat from me. If they can resell it, that's just gravy.
I think hidden city is borderline in terms of harm. I actually agree that it doesn't really cost the airlines a significant amount of money, if any, and that they mostly crack down on it because it screws with their pricing models. To me the biggest danger is still that in IRROPs, you are not guaranteed a trip through the connecting point that is your actual intended destination, and that's one of the biggest reasons to not do it. If we get technical, you are indeed purchasing one product from an airline (travel from A to B), and intending to actually consume another (travel from A to C). So your actual intent is different from that you've expressed to the airline. Whether that is fraud or unethical...that's the part that's up for debate. Here's another retail comparison for discussion: You go into a clothing store. They have one of those stupid shirts that looks like it's a t-shirt on top of a long-sleeve tee, but is actually all one piece of clothing. They also have a regular short-sleeve t-shirt with the same design. The t-shirt costs 50% more than the shirt+sleeves combo, because not many people actually want to buy the combo shirt. You remove the pricetag from the combo shirt, attach it to the short-sleeve shirt, and proceed to checkout with only the short-sleeve shirt. You are essentially telling the checkout scanner that you are buying the combo shirt, when in fact you are only taking the short-sleeve shirt which, based on demand, is a more expensive product. How would you guys evaluate this situation? |
Originally Posted by gooselee
(Post 24699246)
Here's another retail comparison for discussion: You go into a clothing store. They have one of those stupid shirts that looks like it's a t-shirt on top of a long-sleeve tee, but is actually all one piece of clothing. They also have a regular short-sleeve t-shirt with the same design. The t-shirt costs 50% more than the shirt+sleeves combo, because not many people actually want to buy the combo shirt. You remove the pricetag from the combo shirt, attach it to the short-sleeve shirt, and proceed to checkout with only the short-sleeve shirt. You are essentially telling the checkout scanner that you are buying the combo shirt, when in fact you are only taking the short-sleeve shirt which, based on demand, is a more expensive product. How would you guys evaluate this situation? Yes hidden city messes with demand algorithms but I do not think it is a good comparison because the "product" is flying to destination C regardless. I think a better example would be: You buy a Tasting menu for 4 courses and you skip out after the 3'rd. Somebody may or may not eat the desert but it was being made anyway. |
Originally Posted by avidflyer
(Post 24699352)
Yes hidden city messes with demand algorithms but I do not think it is a good comparison because the "product" is flying to destination C regardless. I think a better example would be: You buy a Tasting menu for 4 courses and you skip out after the 3'rd. Somebody may or may not eat the desert but it was being made anyway.
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Booking an entire F class cabin with the sole purpose of cancelling those reservations to increase one's chance of an upgrade - undeniably fraud. DL has no chance to realize revenue from those seats while they are "held"
Hidden City Ticketing - violation of COC, but DL has made the income it desires from that seat whether it is used or not. |
Originally Posted by gooselee
(Post 24698702)
Airline seat inventory spoils. There aren't many other products that behave in a similar way, so it's hard to find a good retail comparison.
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Originally Posted by bubbashow
(Post 24699928)
Booking an entire F class cabin with the sole purpose of cancelling those reservations to increase one's chance of an upgrade - undeniably fraud. DL has no chance to realize revenue from those seats while they are "held"
Actual fraud consists of any kind of artifice by which another is deceived. Constructive fraud consists of any act of omission or commission, contrary to legal or equitable duty, trust, or confidence justly reposed, which is contrary to good conscience and operates to the injury of another |
Originally Posted by gooselee
(Post 24699246)
Here's another retail comparison for discussion:
You go into a clothing store. They have one of those stupid shirts that looks like it's a t-shirt on top of a long-sleeve tee, but is actually all one piece of clothing. They also have a regular short-sleeve t-shirt with the same design. The t-shirt costs 50% more than the shirt+sleeves combo, because not many people actually want to buy the combo shirt. You remove the pricetag from the combo shirt, attach it to the short-sleeve shirt, and proceed to checkout with only the short-sleeve shirt. You are essentially telling the checkout scanner that you are buying the combo shirt, when in fact you are only taking the short-sleeve shirt which, based on demand, is a more expensive product. How would you guys evaluate this situation? |
Delta is now selling the last first class seat at a P fare over a month out???
I have to do DTW/LAS for work in June and purchased the ticket. I remember sometimes getting this upgrade as even a silver or gold and almost always getting it as a PM or DM until a couple years ago.
Still quite a few seats available on the outbound which is a 737. Return is an A320 with only one seat remaining. FCM fare was $240 over economy (A fare on outbound and P fare returning). I just went ahead and booked it and should be able to expense it figuring I will have the flexibility of doing a SDC. Was an expensive fare class both ways in economy even though the seat maps was pretty open on both flights (on the return no aisle seats in C+ though and I have to give Delta credit that the past month I have had no problems getting an aisle C+ seat at booking). If Delta is holding back upgrades to the last minute trying to sell seats, why are they offering a P fare on the last remaining first class seat on a flight that is a month and a half away?? |
Originally Posted by bubbashow
(Post 24699928)
Booking an entire F class cabin with the sole purpose of cancelling those reservations to increase one's chance of an upgrade - undeniably fraud. DL has no chance to realize revenue from those seats while they are "held"
Hidden City Ticketing - violation of COC, but DL has made the income it desires from that seat whether it is used or not. |
Never thought I'd give in to FCM on a 500 mile DTW/EWR but did last night.
Wanted to fly DTW/LGA but fares were absurd so booked DTW/EWR on a fare that was almost half of what DTW/LGA was. Wasn't that happy with the return time but it was a lot cheaper than any other alternative flights that day. Fare class is V going, T returning. When I went to purchase the fare it offered me a buyup of something like $95 EACH WAY. I realized I never chose my seats when I booked and pulled up the reservation to make sure I had aisle C+ seats and it gave me a buyup offer for $50 RT. If Delta had the old SDC policy in place, I wouldn't have considered it. But seeing the fare difference on the flights I wanted I figured it was worth it for a decent shot at SDCing for LGA flights or at least getting a later flight out of EWR returning. The odds are slim to none that I would be able to SDC on a V or T fare and it is way too risky to go to LGA to standby for a flight when I'm ticketed out of EWR. |
Originally Posted by jamesteroh
(Post 24803278)
Never thought I'd give in to FCM on a 500 mile DTW/EWR but did last night.
Wanted to fly DTW/LGA but fares were absurd so booked DTW/EWR on a fare that was almost half of what DTW/LGA was. Wasn't that happy with the return time but it was a lot cheaper than any other alternative flights that day. Fare class is V going, T returning. When I went to purchase the fare it offered me a buyup of something like $95 EACH WAY. I realized I never chose my seats when I booked and pulled up the reservation to make sure I had aisle C+ seats and it gave me a buyup offer for $50 RT. If Delta had the old SDC policy in place, I wouldn't have considered it. But seeing the fare difference on the flights I wanted I figured it was worth it for a decent shot at SDCing for LGA flights or at least getting a later flight out of EWR returning. The odds are slim to none that I would be able to SDC on a V or T fare and it is way too risky to go to LGA to standby for a flight when I'm ticketed out of EWR. |
The confusion of FCM burned me too.. I did a SDC via Diamond desk and asked for fare difference to F. They quoted $300 for two legs. I said I'd wait on it. Went to check in on phone and it offered $149 one leg, I figured eh, might as well. Turns out it's FCM =/= fare difference because it codes up same as a SWU upgrade/RUC. I called desk to complain a few days later and the rep based out of Utah didn't know either! Apparently coded as a "e-first class upgrade". BOO on missing out on the MQM bonus as that was the only reason i did it.. Never again...
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Originally Posted by BusTrav8yrs
(Post 24803550)
And that is not by accident. DL knew what it was doing by relaxing the SDC rules on F and I am sure this was the intended result. Congrats to DL, they are getting people to spend more money and think they are getting a deal in the process.
If, for your own situation, you think otherwise, don't buy the FCM fares. Simple. |
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