The Definitive B/E Upgrade Complaint Thread
 

Anyone else seen this ?

I was on DL 247 yesterday (AMS->MSP). Door closing, 6 open seats in BE. I upgraded on SWU's for this one.

2 NRSA's (I assume - crew tags on luggage, hugging, talking with other FA's etc) overheard they were in AMS for 5 days vacation and were returning to MSP - took 2 of the seats.

Of the remaining 4 crew taped (literally) off 2 of them (which were used for about 2 hrs during the flight for crew rest) and the other 2 were used as storage during the flight for various food and beverage prep - and crew "stuff" (bags of immigration forms etc.)

I know that there was at least one DM in coach (met him at gate).

I am sympathetic to the need for DL to maximize revenue (I paid my M fare, used SWU's) but it seems there are much better uses for BE seats than for crew storage. Why not put a DM there ?

Note to DL board members, I have retitled this topic "The Definitive B/E Upgrade Complaint Thread" and any newly created threads on the same issue will be combined into this new master thread. This master thread will cover all issue pertaining to upgrades into the B/E cabin including the use of miles, the use of SWU's, lack of day of departure upgrades and eligible fare class posts that frequently appear on this forum and have created so many dupe threads.
RSSrsvp - Moderator

I hope you wore your "fire proof" suit today :D

If the DM was on an eligible fare and got on the waitlist to use an SWU, he has a beef. Otherwise, this just shows persistence ignorance of SkyMiles program benefits.

I think they simply figure that if upper level Medallions know they have a good chance at a free upgrade, they would rarely sell any of those seats up front, so they simply don't give them away! (NW threw you a bone every once in a while) Any employee will tell you that it's "part of their employment package" to be able to fly non-rev in BE on an int'l flight. Domestic - they know that Medallions are "SUPPOSED" to be upgraded before they are - - but that's "ANOTHER WHOLE CAN OF WORMS" we don't wanna open here! :D

^

The seats should have been empty, but what I cannot stand is the way the DL FAs tape off seats and use other seats for storage. This is supposed to be Business Elite, and it is very tacky to have drinks and food items stored on a row of seats near you. UA FAs do this from time to time too, I've never seen it done on one of the international carriers actually known for a good premium cabin product.

Now this would make a good topic for discussion however the upgrade policy (or maybe that should read the non-upgrade policy) that Delta has for international flights now falls in the "beating a dead horse" category.

This is the only legit issue in the thread.

I agree. ^

So I am taking DL634 out of NRT to SFO on May 11. I checked seat availability and 21 seats are open in Biz Elite (I imagine some of these are sold, but unassigned). Anyone wanna give some pointers on how I might weasel my way up there from a upper row Coach ticket?:D

Using open seats for storage is kinda, ahem, gauche.

Get enough of your friends without status to fly with you so as to over-sell coach and you get an op-up :).

Seriously the coach over-sell is really your only hope. Of course, it would never hurt to ask at the gate (expect 'no' though).

Just off the top of my head, DL has to block 4 BE seats for crew rest if bunks are not available. As for taping, there may not have been "CREW REST" placards available to attach to the seats. While I don't agree with the practice, stowing service equipment in those seats is a guarantee that a passenger won't take the designated crew seats.

(This is true for PMNW FAs. It's a contractual agreement. I don't know about PMDL FAs.)

And as for the employees up front, they don't control where they sit. The GA clears the non-revs. There could be numerous reasons why the DM sat in Y and not in BE.

Wirelessly posted (BlackBerry8310/4.2.2 Profile/MIDP-2.0 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/102)

Guess I should be more clear. Issue wasn't the NrSAs - shoudnt have mentioned it. Issue was 4 open seats. I wasnt aware that it was a rule that there had to be 4 - which I get. 2 were used for about 2 hrs and the other 2 were only used for storage. Seemed a waste of premium space to me - but now I understand why

There is no issue. DM's in the back didnt pay for the BE seats nor used their SWUs or miles. Therefore they are not eligible to sit in BE. If DL (or any other airline) was giving premium BE seats on their transatlantic and tranpacific flights for free to their top elites, those seats would never be paid for. There is something called revenue protection, fare rules and SkyMiles rules. I don't understand what is this thread about. :rolleyes:

To me, it'd be the use of tape to rope off seats and placing service items in the seats. It is a bit tacky.

NWAFA wouldn't it be just as easy to leave the seats empty and address the person that would have the nerve to try to grab that seat?

Upgrade your fare to a M,B or Y and use mileage to upgrade.

I am in agreement and speak as a DM, if the DM in the back was on a low Coach fare he sat exactly where he should have been sitting.

...
 

maybe it's just me, but this is how i look at it.

excluding a discussion of the current SM rules, upgradeable fares, etc... here's my .02:

Having that empty BE seat is just STUPID. Most people who are willing to actually "pay" for BE service aren't chasing the upgradeable fares... it's people who (for some reason or another) - just don't give a damn how much the fare costs.... either someone else is payin' the bill...or $$ just means nothing to them...

Sell those empty BE seats at the gate to the highest bidder - start the bidding at $500 and lower it down until they are all gone - with the caveat that you have to be a diamond/platinum to upgrade.

As long as this wasn't tied to "fare class" or some other silliness... it would net delta an extra $2-$3k on each and every BE flight... instead of the seats being empty...

for that matter - i'm surprised they don't do the same thing on domestic first class. me for one (even as a lowly PM) - would not blink to pay $50-$100 for a 3-6 hr domestic flight.... even if it came out of my own pocket.


doug

Lets go back to Business 101 here; if Delta did this, what would be in the incentive for ANYONE to pay full fare Business? These people who "just don't give a damn", as you so aptly put it, wouldn't need to spend their money and Delta would lose a substantial amount in the long run.

I haven't been on an A333, but the 763s have four seats just behind 6A/B reserved for this purpose. There aren't numbered and are never sold.

764s don't have them. Is there a downstairs cabin with bunks on the 764s or is that just the 777s?

..
 

i am not going to start a thread war over this. i've made my point - empty seats in BE gains ZERO income for the company and doesn't do any of the premium travelers any good.

what would be in the incentive for ANYONE to pay full fare Business?

well, like i stated in my post - it's my OPINION that most people in BE on these flights are going to PAY (dearly) for that seat. They aren't the type to gamble on getting/not getting a seat at the gate, simply b/c the Y cabin is below their tier on the social ladder.

It's also my OPINION that a solid majority of BE pax don't care about saving $1200 on a fare... it's just not worth their time.

what i wanted to convey is that *IF* there are empty BE seats when the door is closed, it behooves Delta to sell those seats... perhaps to the highest bidder - but only Diamonds/Plats/Golds should be offered that opportunity.

We'll call this new perk:

SKYUPINFRONTODABUS.

LOL.

doug

And the one or two people who dont buy J fares just cost DL more than the $3K that was made selling seats this way.

It avoids a confrontation. I know from personal experience that after giving someone the OK to sit in a crew seat under the condition that they would have to leave when crew breaks start, they then refuse to vacate the seat. Then we have to see who has more pull, the working crew member or someone sitting in a seat that they weren't assigned to.

The PMNW FAs have different work rules compared to PMDL FAs. The company has to honor our contract. In the case of crew rest, if our contract is not followed, each working PMNW FA gets an additional 4 hours of flight pay. If the company sells a crew seat, the working crew gets an additional 2 hours of flight pay on top of the 4 hours.

Actually they would. And that's the point. My speculation is that most fliers in J are with company business, and they can fly there because their are on business. Hence business elite. I don't think that those same people would hold back purchasing J tickets because of a possible upgrade later.

It's the people that pay on their own dime that would hold back. Or you might get those that did hold back to cough up something if you dangle a carrot that's cheaper than the original one.

Sorry, I have to disagree. Plenty of people who want to be assured of a J seat would pay the full fare. They would not want to take the risk of sitting in the back.

Even if "plenty" or even "most" of those that fly in J would continue to pay full fare doesn't mean that giving away J wouldn't hurt revenue. Even if one person that would otherwise pay for it decides to gamble, then revenue is lost.

At the end of the day, if the upgrades come, then people will stop paying for J (look at the pretty much complete lack of domestic F demand). If the upgrades don't come, then it isn't really a benefit, is it? There is simply no way to use free upgrades to drive demand without reducing your demand for paid J.

There is a way to do this, buy the appropriate fare and use miles or SWU's, or go and pay the difference between your T fare or whatever and the lowest BizE fare available. Personally I want those four seats (or whatever) to stay empty, I love when people try to justify crzy int'l talk from their domestic experiences.

The only permutation which could work in such circumstances is what BA had for a few years, paid upgrades onboard, at the CSD's judgement, BA would sell upgrades onboard for certain set prices, you paid then and there by credit card. They never promoted this heavily on purpose, but I would think judging by the tone of most "why am I not upgraded from a T fare" type posters, that they wopuld balk at $1000-1500 RT for upgrades in this manner.

^

Cheapskates that don't belong up front. Don't try to bring facts of devaluation of the product into it...they don't want to hear it. They just want us all to know how valuable they are on their T-fare elite status.

Ok how about the fact that the BE cabins have been running rather empty as reported here a number of times. The underly issue TO ME is the price of the M fare - these seats can still be revenue controlled, and bring in a few more thousand per flight.

As a ex-NWPM and now DM, I have to say,
Regardless wherever they are sitting, even its in the back, coach middle seat, next to the crying baby, or the worst - all together,
chances are PMs and DMs will fly Delta again.

NW wasn't giving their WBC away just for the cause. and DL is doing the same. Like the MOST other airlines does around the world.
(especially SQ, KE agents gives you worst look i've ever seen in my life if you ask for the "Free" upgrade.)

Back to the Principal, You get what you paid for.

Low upgradable fares were nice on NW, and a lot of us who fly a lot miss those fares. Having said that and holding a M fare that cost me 3 X as much as one on NW in the "good old days", I am STILL on the waiting list 9 days out for and upgrade using a SWU on DL 259 that is still listed as J9 D9 S9 I0 Y9 B9 M9 H9 Q9 K9 L9 U9 T9 - as a charter Diamond Medallion. It is more than the fares - it is also the benefits of being "loyal" - or lack thereof.

Will dl ever equal ua with swu for dm on lower tickets
 

I am curious to find out what other Diamonds opinions are regarding this issue.
UA gives its 1K SWU's to upgrade from coach to use on almost any ticket. and if you read the UA board, you read very few complaints from their 1K on this issue.

For me, I have over a dozen of International flights to take yet this year and it is disappointing to know that on UA I would get some upgrades with the SWU and on the airline I have been so loyal to and have given so much business to over the years, they feel it is not worth it thanking their most loyal customers with similar SWU's.

Just for the record, this is not a bash DL Thread. Just a thread for civil comments on this topic.

Thank you.

The YBM fare rules for international upgrades are arbitrary rules! Some of you continue to act as if they were divinely written upon stone tablets and carried down the mountain by Moses.

DL has some kind of issue going on here... I suspect the best way for them to solve the problem of unsold BE seats is to liberalize the sale fare rules the way CO and others have done. On CO, you do not need to have a 7 day stay, just a Saturday night stay for their BF sale fares.

Overall SWUs are pretty useless. Delta M fares are almost as much as Z, I can understand not having LUT, but the mid fares would be a nice compromise. I do not see it happening though as Delta overall feels route maps and schedule are more important then service.

As I've said before. If International Upgrades are important to you, Delta SkyMiles is not the right program for you.

If you take a dozen int'l flights, why do you fly DL?

M fares USA-Asia often cost $3,000-$4,000

Average SWU upgradable fares on UA are often $1,100-$1,600

If money is no object, then fly DL.....:D:D

To answer the original question.... It is very possible that DL SWU's will soon equal or come close to UA's. After the UA/CO merger, the devaluation winds will blow over Chicago and Houston... It is only a matter of time...

I am scared by this merger. We 1Ks have everything to lose and very little to gain.

New CO/UA will be run by current CO CEO. CO is also stingy about benefits for top tier elites.

This is my biggest point of contention... if DL fixed these useless papers they would indeed be best in class, in my opinion... but I'm starting to not hold my breath on this! :rolleyes: