Delta denies boarding based on fuzzy visa info
 

So I'm all set to leave today to SE Asia for a 45-day trip, flying US to Bangkok round-trip on a US passport. My itinerary called for 20 days in Thailand, then flying to Malaysia on a separately booked flight, and re-entering Thailand a few days before my return trip to US.

Except Delta denied me boarding. They quoted the IATA visa regulations for Thailand, which state "Visa required, except for a touristic stay of max. 30 days." I did a LOT of research planning for the trip and this is technically true, but incomplete. As long as I leave Thailand within 30 days and can prove it, then I am following the law. That's what my separate flight itinerary showed. The Delta agent didn't care. I wasn't allowed to board.

Delta has thus far entirely refused to budge, essentially relying on the fuzzy information of IATA and Delta's own narrow interpretation to deny any wrongdoing whatsoever. I understand Delta rep thought he was doing his job, but they have basically made up their own immigration policy based on IATA's terse and incomplete explanation.

Is there anything I can do at this point? Is there anyone at Delta I can talk to who will care? No one I can get on the phone has any power or common sense to interpret the IATA statement correctly. Right now my only option is a refund minus the hefty cancellation fee. And then I'm out a lonnnng-planned, once-in-a-lifetime vacation.

Any advice is greatly appreciated! (And before you yell at me, yes, I could have just gotten a visa, but I really didn't foresee the need since I was complying with Thai immigration laws.)

Frankly, I can kind of see their point. You have a ticket to Thailand with a return 45 days later. How do they know you're going to leave the country within the first 30 days? (Or, more on point, how do they know that the immigration officer that you speak with when you arrive in Thailand is going to believe that you'll leave the country within 30 days? If he sends you back, it's on their head. Thus the reason they're concerned...)

At this point it seems you're in a bit of a pickle. My oversimplified advice to you is: what's more difficult at this point, fighting Delta or getting the visa?

Thailand has an embassy in DC and consulates in LA, Chicago, and New York. Their website indicates you could get the visa within 2 days if applying in person and it costs $35. Hopefully someone with more experience can chime in and offer better details.

Sorry, I have to side with Delta here. They can get fined thousands of dollars if you didn't leave the country on time and they were not able to prove they were not culpable because you intended to leave the country within the 30 days required for no visa by booking a ticket with them.

You said you booked a separate ticket for the Thailand-Malaysia bit. Can you call Delta and see if they can modify your reservation by rebooking that ticket for you as part of your trip? Or somehow merge the two tickets?

By the way, sorry for the thumbs down, I don't know why that happened or how to take it off!!!!

I'd call up Delta and start demanding denied boarding compensation. You might get someone high-up enough to deal with it.

Your onward flight itinerary should be more than enough. Offer to have a conference call with the Thai consulate. Raise a stink.

Besides, TIMATIC (the electronic version of the Travel Information Manual) is not designed to be comprehensive. From IATA's website:

The Thai consulate is the authoritative source; not TIMATIC.

No, Delta is definately in the wrong, the Thai authorities would require no more than proff that you were leaving the country within 30 days (if they did at all, in my many thousands of trips over the years, no immigration official has ever asked me for proof of onward travel, they generally only ask those who look like degenerates) Delta cannot have more onerous rstrictions than those published by the country in question. If its good enough for the Thais, it has to be good enough for Delta.

If you have problems at check in, quote what I say above and print out the following and show it to them. This is what the Delta agents need to pay attention to as it is what is on their screen (note *****):

Visa required, except for A touristic stay of max. 30 days:
- for holders of normal passports, being nationals of the
U.S.A.(except passports issued in the Marshall Islands);
Additional Information:
- All passports must be in good condition.
- Those travelling to Thailand with a visa issued prior to
arrival, are permitted to travel on a one-way ticket.
*******- It is strongly recommended to hold documents for next
destination as passengers may be subject to random checks.*********

If you had a valid, ticketed, onward itinerary to show them, Delta is UNCONDITIONALLY wrong and 100% to blame. Raise hell, write letters, demand compensation. There is no gray area if you presented a valid, ticketed, onward itinerary. They flat out were in the wrong. I would have escalated it as high as possible by any means possible on the spot.

Welcome to Flyertalk, brenkarch
Please continue to follow this discussion in the Delta Forum.
Thanks..
Obscure2k
TravelBuzz Moderator

The OP never said he offered to show proof or showed this to Delta. Can you please clarify OP?

It is Delta's right to see these documents.

Did you show them your ticket to Malaysia? Based on the ticket to Malaysia, Delta should allow you to board, unless there is some law in Thialand that people whose return date is beyond the thirty days visa free visit, must enter Thailand with a visa.

Um, wanna bet? Maybe we are debating semantics (immigration laws vs. documentation) but show up in Brazil without a Brazilian visa and the transporting carrier is subject to a huge fine. From TIMATIC:

Passengers arriving with incorrect documentation will be
deported back to the country of origin at carrier's expense.
Moreover the carrier will have to pay the detention costs
and a fine of USD 2,000.- which will be multiplied in case
of recurrence.

And here is Russia:

Russian Federation (RU)

Warning:
- Non-compliance with entry or transit regulations may result
in fines for carrier varying from a minimum of USD 1,800.-
to a maximum of USD 3,600.- or the equivalent in local
currency per passenger. Passenger will be held liable for an
administrative penalty of RUB 1,000.- with either an
indefinite delay for passenger at point of entry or
deportation by same airline on first available flight.



I do agree that DL was in the wrong. So long as the OP had a copy of his ticket showing that he/she was going to leave the country within 30 days, there should not have been an issue.

Unless Thailand requires that people with a longer than 30 days return ticket must have a visa, Delta should allow him to board. Lots of people do visa runs from Thailand to Cambodia or Malaysia to stay there beyond thirty days.

:confused:
You must be joking.

Did you read the same OP? Perhaps you missed this part...

"As long as I leave Thailand within 30 days and can prove it, then I am following the law. That's what my separate flight itinerary showed. The Delta agent didn't care. I wasn't allowed to board." Pretty clear to me.

Definitely Delta is just being ignorant. I have booked one way flights and when asked just said, my way out it on a different carrier.

Fight it, raise a stink, keep asking for a supervisor, don't get off the phone until it's fixed.

Again, you must be joking. :rolleyes:

Delta really screwed up with this one, but that agent's reasoning Delta could never sell a one-way international ticket to any country with a maximum stay requirement. Definitely complain, I think you are entitled to IDB compensation for this one.

Airlines are definetly responsible for arriving passengers having the required documents. I don't know where B747-437B got his info, but it is totally wrong. Delta would be responsible for returning the passenger even if his documents were correct and the immigration officer refused entry just because he didn't like the color of the passenger's eyes.
Dave

You run into rogue/ignorant agents every now and then. This is one of those cases. you have to be firm and not give up.

Your argument doesn't hold.
How does Delta know that some one with one week return ticket will not stay beyond thirty days?

I'm sure airlines don't have a right to see someone's documents. However, if the passenger doesn't present the documents, the airline does have the right to deny boarding. I'm guessing that's where B747 was going with that.

A few comments based on my actual experiences:

1. If you had proof that you would be leaving the country prior to your 30 days being up you can be boarded. But you MUST provide an actual eticket receipt showing confirmed flights. An itinerary, email, etc will not be sufficient. We can look up etickets issued by other airlines so if you have an actual ticket it can be verified.

2. While it is true that an airline cannot compel you to show your documentation failure to do so can also result in your being denied boarding. It is the airline's responsibility to ensure that you hold the correct documents. If you refuse to show them you run the risk of correctly being denied travel.

3. Airlines DO get fined if they transport passengers who do not meet the entry requirements. In addition, they normally have to pay for the return trip as well. I know this from dealing with actual fines levied by South Africa because a passenger arrived without the necessary blank pages, amongst other similar situations.


In your case, with a valid trip leaving Thailand within 30 days you should be able to travel. If you want to PM your PNR I can see what the situation is. If you choose to do so please also send em the eticket information for your other ticket.

It would be nice to hear from the OP regarding the situation. Delta is really 100% wrong in the matter and I would demand IDB comp. in addition to rescheduling of flights ASAP on any carrier.

Good luck OP!

This is entirely correct. It would appear that the agent may have been able to more helpful if all he was shown was an itinerary that he could ask for the e-ticket. More than likely it may have been a bus run which would not really have any ticketing.

The above is one of the reasons why some carriers do not allow international online check in - so that one has to go to an agent and have everything approved.

On a side note, without regard to the OP's specific situation, Delta's responsibilities, or Thai immigration law........ In the real world of Thai immigration, even if you (citizen of wealthy western nation) did arrive at BKK with no visa and no proof of onward travel there is a 99.9% chance they would not even ask for it. In close to 100 arrivals at BKK and a variety of Thai land borders I have been asked for proof of onward travel exactly once and that was during a short lived crack down on foreigners making visa runs a couple of years ago and even then, only because I have vast numbers of Thai immigration stamps in my passport. I haven't been asked since and that particular crack down ended after a couple of months. However even if you were the unlucky 0.1% and they DID ask and you did not have proof, there is a 99% chance you could just talk your way past it if you don't look like a bum and had a plausible explanation as to how you were not trying to overstay in Thailand illegally. And if even that failed, the ABSOLUTE worse case scenario would be they would turn you around and send you to the Thai Airways ticket counter to purchase a fully refundable, full fare ticket to 'someplace' which you could then turn around get your money back for once you got past immigration. No way are the Thais deporting any citizen of a rich western nation solely for lack of an onward ticket unless they are to destitute to front the money for a few days on an onward ticket or there was something else more serious wrong with them.

Is this a one hit wonder for the OP?

As the Op stated, "That's what my separate flight itinerary showed. " then you have no reason to state anything about a bus run

This one is painful to read. Now, what have I missed. Let's assume that the OP had bought a RT ticket on DL and the return was within 30 days. What greater guarantee is there that the OP would be on that flight and leave the country witin 30 days? There is no more guarantee that the OP would be on that return flight than there is he would be on the other airline's flight that he has booked out of Thailand within the 30 day period.. The point is, the OP, if I read this correctly, has a ticketed flight on another airline out of the country within 30 days. That should be sufficient. I understand all of the other concerns, but a ticketed flight out on another airline should be sufficient. DL should at least have someone to call the Thai Consulate to verify this.

Maybe he is in the air now on his way to Thailand. I suppose it's possible he resolved the problem.

Why, because they haven't responded in the last 3 hours? OMG, 3 hours!! :rolleyes:

This Delta agent was completely in the wrong and should be re-trained on the specifics of international travel requirements. And the OP should receive full compensation for being denied boarding. The OP would also have a case to be made for any lost reservations they may have had at the destination.

What is an "Actual E-ticket"?
 

I'm not taking sides in this particular discussion, but indogulf brings up an issue that has always nagged at me: How do I PROVE I have an e-ticket?
What is an "actual eticket reciept"?

I thought that the only significant part of an e-ticket confirmation receipt, e-mail, or whatever -- would be the PNR number and/or the ticket number.

Is there something else like a bar code? I usually travel internationally with poorly-printed e-mail confirmations and/or re-typed PNR's and ticket numbers. Am I missing something?

Maybe Delta admitted its mistake and sent him on another airline?

Actually, Thailand does require people with a longer stay than 30 days to have a visa.
People who do visa runs to Laos and Cambodia could have entered on a " Visa on entry" good for 30 days and then decided to stay longer so they do a visa run. I know people who have done as many as five on a single trip. However, Thai immigration rules change and they may limit you to one, two or three such visas. They pased a law about four years ago that certain Africans (Nigerians) had to get their next "Visa on entry" by returning to their home country. I was returning from Cambodia to Bangkok and witnessed one such passenger denied entry. He had no carry-on and no checked bags. I've often wondered what happened to him. Probably had to buy a ticket either from Bangkok or Phnom Penh back to his home country.
Dave

Would be nice to know.

If you have an e-ticket, the receipt will show the ticket number. If you have made a booking but it's not ticketed, you will have an itinerary, and no ticket number, hence no e-ticket receipt.

A valid ticket number IS an e-ticket. It can be hand written in pencil on the back of a Starbucks receipt, recited from memory, verbally passed along from a cell phone call, written in the palm of your hand. The E-Ticket itself exists in the airlines computer. Not on any kind of paper.

Only the first sentence of this paragraph is correct. The rest is absolutely wrong. Delta would not be responsible for returning the passenger if the passenger complied with immigration documentation requirements and then held up his middle finger to the immigration officer. If I have the required documentation for a country, and have complied with all entry requirements for that country when I arrive for my DL flight, if DL denies me boarding, I am due compensation for denied boarding.

DL can't play immigration officer at the ticket counter when I've complied with the immigration laws of a given country. Thai law states that I have to leave within 30 days. If I have a ticket to leave within 30 days, even if not on DL, I've more than complied with Thai regulations. DL can't take it upon themselves to play immigration officer and come up with their own risk analysis vis-a-vis my true intentions once I arrive in Thailand -- that is the job of the immigration officer.

And if the immigration officer doesn't like my story, that's not going to be DL's problem.

Exactly. I can drive over to JFK and buy a one-way ticket to London, and DL would owe me IDB comp if they told me I couldn't fly because I hadn't purchased a round-trip ticket. Yes, British immigration may not let me into the country if they think I'm going to stay there longer than a tourist visa would permit, but that is my problem, not DL's. OTOH, if I show up with a expired passport and arrive at the UK Border and am thrown out, it is DL's responsibility.

This was a bad business decision for DL, and they need to be careful that they don't make a habit of IDBing people based on their subjective conclusions. If I heard DL was doing this to people with one-way tickets to Europe, for example, I would certainly think twice about booking a trip with them.

Exactly. If you have an e-ticket you fly. If you have an itinerary you don't. OP mentioned a "seperate itinerary" but he may have had a seperate ticket. We don't know for sure because he never responded.

On a side note, if you checkin online you don't necessarly have to go to the departure gate to get your documents OKed. I always go to a gate agent who is not busy at another gate and get mine approved. It's quicker usually, and I can get it done early before the gate agents at the departure gate arrive at their station.
Dave

But some gate agents handling an international flight want to see your passport and visa, if applicable at the time of boarding even if your documents have been checked by another agent. I have also had my documents okayed in some World Clubs.,

Even IF the someone was 100% not in compliance with Thai onward travel requirements AND the Delta check-in agent chose to play hardball on the topic you would think it could still be easily resolved on the spot at the Delta check-in counter by buying a full fare Y ticket to BKK-NRT or something which you could then call up and refund to your credit card 5 minutes after you checked in.