FWIW, Australian C&P cards seem to work as such in all other European countries, but as signature in France. See posts #3 and #34 in this link from TripAdvisor.

http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopic...de_France.html

That'll be because France uses offline PIN (Where the Pin is stored on the chip), which Australian cards don't support. Some machines in the UK doesn't support it either (Although very rare and only on old terminals) as UK cards primarily have offline PIN as their highest card verification method.

No, it isn't a national consensus of the people. It is a consensus of those who donate money to congressional campaigns.

Just about everything is interstate commerce these days. The Supreme Court even ruled that that the federal government can ban the production of cannabis because it could be taken to another state. Whether it is actually taken to another state or not is irrelevant, just the fact that the possibility exists makes it subject to federal law. I don't think there is any debate that the federal government could regulate credit card networks if it wanted to. In fact, it already does in many ways.

Citi debit cards with EMV? (unconfirmed)

A fellow FTer PMed me this morning that his/her parents were able to receive a Citi ATM/debit card with an EMV chip on it prior to their recent vacation trip to Europe.

Keeping this unconfirmed as there is no where listed on Citi's website, image or any other official statement given on the internet anywhere about it's existence.

If anyone has a banking relationship with Citi who is willing to try and call/Twitter for an EMV upgrade to their debit card, feel free to try.

Putting a word in now, standby.

Edit: twitter folks said nope not available.

Thanks for your help.

And this is the reason why we have to resort to citing references and "show us photo proof to prove that exists" before jumping to conclusions based on just statements alone; we went through this with the UA Mileage Plus Explorer card when it was first announced with unconfirmed reports flying around that it will come with EMV when it turned out not to be the case.

Unless there is a citation from a reliable news source, an official statement from the financial provider (website, PR statement, etc.), or undeniable photo proof of the card, it will stay unconfirmed and not listed on the spreadsheet.

Furthermore, photos of the actual card in existence is the greatest weapon we have to use against CSRs who try to play dumb/lazy to say it's not available without bothering to check, which was the case with the Citibank AA VISA card.

I asked via live chat just to make sure as sometimes it varies by method/CSR saying I heard some folks got it and they said that debit cards with emv are still not available :(

I went to Germany this past year with two chip-and-signature cards (Citi HHonors and PenFed) and had no issues using either.

I now have a trip scheduled to Italy next year (primarily Rome with a possible side trip to another city) and tried to convert my USAA Mastercard to chip-and-PIN (to have as a backup in case I could not sign) but was told there was some issue that prevented me from converting (I had a standard card with a photo when I opened it 10 years ago and then converted to a Platinum card). The only way I could obtain the chip would be to apply for a new card, which is of little use to me since my original MC is my oldest credit line and I don't want another HP right now.

I think the answer is probably buried here but should I even pursue obtaining a card that defaults to a PIN or just stick with the two cards I used in Germany? FWIW, I also have a Andrews FCU GlobeTrek card.

Which makes sense since we still haven't solved our EMV debit bickering as a country, and even when we do, I am doubtful they'll be good for travel - if they do end up using Discover's application for everything, this will greatly reduce international acceptance, will it not?

The AFCU card seems to default to Chip+Sig first, but there are reports (see the AFCU application process/usage thread) of successful use in Chip+PIN mode. My AFCU card worked as Chip+Sig in the same circumstance where my USAA MC was Chip+PIN. No idea why...

Unless you'll be using unattended kiosks where cash isn't an alternative, it seems like you can get by with a mix of Chip+Sig and swipe cards, and whatever your AFCU VISA decides it wants to be that day.:)

You can have more than one application on a chip.

If a terminal supports more than one of the applications it simply asks the user which application they want to use. We used to have it in the UK on Debit cards when we had the switch debit card network (local UK network that doesn't exist anymore) and the cards were also maestro cards so they would work elsewhere in Europe but in some shops in the UK, it would ask which one you wanted to use (As they accept both Switch and Maestro).

Issuers can also set a priority rather than manual selection. (I.e. Use Amex network if possible but if not use Visa). The USA will have to use the manual selection though and it will likely name the debit network (Debit) and the Credit network (Credit). This will mean no more being asked Credit or Debit, even on a debit card (Unless the credit card provider subscribes to a debit card network (Other than Plus or Cirrus that can use the signature network application).

Even in this day, every single UK debit card and credit card has at least two applications, as all UK cards have the LINK ATM (UK ATM network) application on them and their network (Amex, MC,Visa etc.) application.

This may be true for Chase consumer products, but our corporate Mastercards are still issued by JP Morgan and processed by Chase.

Perhaps VISA's preference of Chip-and-Sig vs MC's preference of Chip-and-PIN might have played a role in Chase's decision to stick with VISA for the time being?

In the short-term, VISA's EMV is cheaper to implement and probably much faster to roll out.

But in the long-term, I think without a doubt for the sake of global interoperability and stronger security, everyone will have to eventually move to what MC prefers: Chip-and-PIN.

That would explain why USAA is the only "true" Chip-and-PIN (by that meaning Chip-and-PIN is the primary authentication) as most USAA cards are MCs.

Having two applications is ILLEGAL in the US, since it means either the cardholder or the issuing bank, but NOT the merchant, chooses the network. Thus the proposal for a single multiple-network application.

Plus Diners Club (through BMO/Harris), which is not only "true" Chip-and-PIN but also "offline" Chip-and-PIN. But the target time for new applications for the individual ("professional") Diners Club card has been pushed back again, to spring 2014, per the latest post in this thread.

Yes but...there are repots somewhere in tis long long thread of people using the Andrews (or PenFed o State Departmn_cards where the merchant ran the card and when the message flashed signature required voided the transaction and said no way dude and there's nothing you can do to override his which continues to beg the question of just how useful chip and signature cards are.

Which is why I suggested carrying a few cards, more than one anyway, hoping that something in the deck will work for all/most purchases.

Ideally, I would like one card that would complete every credit/charge transaction I want to do. Second choice is 2-4 cards that together meet this requirement.

I doubt travelers are going to bet their travel needs on just one card alone.

Most int'l travelers carry multiple cards anyway as an "arsenal" of payments instead of expecting one card to do every transaction imaginable from all corners of the earth.

Besides, there are merchants out there who only take one form of network and not others (think Costco, Sam's Club)

Ideally then, IMO it would be carrying four cards, one out of each brand:

1 VISA, no (or "net-zero") annual fee, no forex fee, EMV (PIN, Sig, no CVM in that order), that earns rewards

1 MC, no (or "net-zero") annual fee, no forex fee, EMV (PIN, Sig, no CVM in that order), that earns rewards

1 AMEX no (or "net-zero") annual fee, no forex fee, EMV (PIN, Sig, no CVM in that order), that earns rewards

1 Discover/Diners Club/JCB/Union Pay no (or "net-zero") annual fee, no forex fee, EMV (PIN, Sig, no CVM in that order), that earns rewards


And even then, this alone will not be possible to pay everything. I surely am not going to expect a tuk-tuk or motorcycle taxi driver in Bangkok to accept credit cards, and I'm not going to expect a street parking meter in my local area to accept credit cards either (it's one of those older model ones that still require you to use coins).

Funny you mention Bangkok. I've always been shocked at some of the small business's that take card. Some I wouldn't even expect to take card in the UK (Market stalls etc). There is a Square/iZettle clone in Thailand now though, so this helps.

You might also want to mention that you'd want a swipe and sign card as well. The amount of problems I have with my Chip and PIN cards in Asia is unbelievable. They all try and do a PIN Bypass (This is normal as the Asians don't normally know their pin or the C&S) when the pin prompt is shown but this causes UK cards to decline, they often won't let you enter your PIN as the machine is behind the counter.

Same here in LA. There are places where I wouldn't expect them taking credit cards (like market stalls you mention, Farmer's Market, etc.) which they do via Square type devices, as well as places where I expected them to take credit cards but they don't (Louisiana Fried Chicken franchises, Hispanic family grocers, Japanese food court stores inside Mitsuwa, etc.)

Oh yes, then there's also medicinal marijuana dispensaries here in CA. Majority of them don't accept credit cards because acquirers themselves want to stay away from something that's in the legal gray area. They even have a filter on WeedMaps to tick which dispensaries accept credit cards.

Rack up miles and points for "donating to the collective." :D :D :D :D


And in Japan, discounted long distance train tickets, mass transit tokens, concert tickets, etc. can be bought from third party vendor stalls. Unfortunately they too do not accept credit cards. Gaining entry to pay a "donation" to Buddhist temples and Shinto shrines are also strictly cash only. Many traditional Japanese stores that sell kimonos, yukatas, jinbeis, etc. are also cash only. Heck, quite a lot of Japanese restaurants all over Japan do not accept credit cards.

So when I'm in Japan, that's another country where I'm not going to bet my travel life strictly on just a credit card.

In which case I do CC-VR-AmEx Prepaid-cash withdrawal when I go there. The $3.95 VR fee is well worth it for the savings on bigger things like long-distance train tickets or those airline stockholder discount vouchers while still getting miles.

Not sure on corporate MasterCards but the Ink cards were World and World Elite MasterCard are now Visa Signature cards. Depending on your card expiry or certain actions you take, will trigger a Visa Signature card to replace your existing MC.

I always wondered why there aren't more US companies that give coupons, vouchers or gifts to their shareholders.

It would be a good way to encourage kids to learn from an early age about finances if Disney would give out a free movie ticket or the sort for young Disney stockholders and such (i.e. if you own $100 worth of Disney stock, you get a free Disney movie ticket every year)

Donations != votes.

What would be the benefit of the government stepping in and overriding the technology chosen by the market? I sure wouldn't want the government telling us that we must use Beta tapes instead of BlueRay or Analog cell phones instead of LTE.

So you would just kill off the debit networks like NYCE, Pulse, ACCEL, STAR, etc by some decree? They may not be altruistic but the regional online debit networks have consistently provided low cost transactions and secured them with PINs for decades, while the signature networks attempted to gouge debit card consumers and merchants as much as possible until courts/FED stepped in, while doing everything they could to kill off online debit competition.

Donations -> campaign money -> votes.

Money buys votes. Anyone who thinks otherwise is rather naive.

In the case of cell phones, the government owns the airwave spectrum, so they can allocate its use as they see fit. I have never heard of government regulation of cassette formats in any country.

When it comes to credit cards, fraud costs the entire economy a lot of money. The credit card companies might choose to absorb the loss, but what about other parties that are affected? The government has an obligation to protect them as well. Just something to think about.

Why not unify them? Canada does fine with just the Interac network, China has UnionPay, Germany has EC, and so on.

All things considered
What emv chip and pin card is easiest to get as a backup card for travel? I have never delt with Credit union before. Tried to apply for wings financial, they had no disclosure on their website about membership and who could apply.
Was approved but then received phone call requesting financial records. Not only that but as I found out later I may not even be eligible because I don't live in Minnesota nor do I work in airline industry!!
Someone please update spreadsheet with their requirements so that others know what they are getting into before applying with Wings

It is right on their website.

https://www.wingsfinancial.com/membership

Given the way our debit networks are run, it'll be a long process that I don't see foresee happening anytime soon.

In other countries, debit networks are just that, a nationwide standardized network that was created at the behest of their respective governments (China's Union Pay) or via association of banks working together (Canada's Interac). It was a team solution to a problem they had "We (banks) have a problem, let's all join forces and work together to create a solution"

Creating a nationwide standardized network like Union Pay and Interac really makes things easy to get stuff done faster since there are few players in the field to worry about. OTOH, it also stifles competition that no new players can be added or make it extremely difficult to do so (there are no competitors to Union Pay to Interac, only they profit).


In the US, our debit network is like software that each financial service provider created independently in which they can sell that software to the banks. Ours was a business-to-business solution created by independent financial service providers to solve a problem that each individual bank had: "I (bank) have a problem, I (financial service provider) have a solution for you"

Just like Windows is a product of Microsoft and it's the consumers' choice to go with Windows, Apple OS, Linux, etc., PULSE is a product of Discover, Star is a product of First Data, NYCE is a produce of FIS, Cirrus is a a product of MC, PLUS is a product of VISA etc. etc. in which it's the individual banks' choice to go with.

What this leaves us is an extremely slow process to get stuff done because there's so many players in the field. Everyone wants to do it their own way and for their own best interests. OTOH, it makes it relatively easy for new competition to come in. Oh you created the STAR network, well you're not going to profit everything, I'm gonna create the PLUS network! Oh no you don't, you two aren't gonna profit, I'm creating the Cirrus network! So on and so forth.

Being said that, the US government can't say "we're taking your debit software from all of you companies and merging it into one nationwide network."

The closest thing we have to a nationwide standardized network is ACH, and that's for clearing checks only. And it took 50 years to create ACH as it exists today when check use is declining. We're waaaaay off from a nationwide standardized debit network.

The only way I see it happening in the US is having all the financial service providers that created the each individual debit networks coming together and say, "ok, I think we all agree that we're done making profit from our product, let's just spin this off and merge it all into a newly created single company and we all become shareholders in that company."

Seeing that it took 50 years to get to ACH, I give it another 50 years to see a standardized nationwide debit network take shape in the US.

Cardhub.com's "Best Travel Credit Card for 2013"
http://www.cardhub.com/best-travel-credit-cards/

I like this part:

The paragraph starts with agreeing that at certain times it will be needed yet it ends with full negation that you won't need it.

Wouldn't it then, be better to say "you can get one of those few chip-and-PIN cards issued by credit unions to be on the safe side and use it as a backup card when you need it?"

Now that would be a more solid advice for travelers than saying "don't bother with Chip-based cards."

And lastly the paragraph ends with poor advice based on theory instead of reality. Yeah in theory, merchants should accept mag-stripe. Reality is far from that.


I have to wonder if the article writers actually hear from international travelers' perspective or they just pull some crap out of their rear end.

But isn't there some sort of standard by which all the debit networks can communicate with each other? For example, if I have a debit card that has an Interlink logo, and the merchant uses Maestro, I can still make a purchase. Not every merchant has an agreement with every network, and yet they are able to accept all major debit cards.

Sure. But that doesn't mean they can still operate in separate ways.

I create a PDF file on a Windows PC in 2005. The PDF can also be opened in an Apple OS machine in 2013. Just because of a PDF file being compatible between Windows and Apple OS doesn't mean Microsoft and Apple should merge and become Micro-Apple (unless they both agree to do so) and our government has no right to tell Microsoft and Apple to merge either.

Or it could be something like a simple conversion program. Say for instance Interlink processes data that has A, B, C in that order. Maestro has it in C, A, B in that order. POS terminal reads the mag-stripe data, recognizes it's Interlink, converts it to Maestro which is what the merchant's bank choice is and you get "compatibility" that way.

Like say I as a Mac user gives you a TIFF file, you as a Windows user uses a third party program to convert it to a BMP file. The end result is nearly the same, for most people an image is an image and it gets the job done if you can see the image.

But should that mean, "most people don't give a flying f--- if it's JPEG, BMP, RAW, TIFF, PNG, GIF, whatever, if it's an image it's an image, just standardize it to one format?" No, because they all have their distinct uses for the professional who does have a need to use it in separate formats.

The three most popular "anyone (or almost anyone) can join" CUs that offer Chip-and-PIN (through whatever preference order) are: Andrews FCU, State Dept FCU and USAA.

Andrews and State eligibility is "open for everyone" by joining the American Consumer Council.

USAA is available for those affiliated with the military (or have a family member who served in the military)

How easy the application process is to get a CC from a credit union is a "what you thought of the experience thing." Some say it isn't that hard (easier than switching jobs to join a more restrictive CU), some say it's a pain in the butt.

FYI

Just talked to Wells Fargo CSR and they said they will start issuing EMV enabled credit cards within the next 2 week Half the time they don't know what they are talking about and often confuse with pay wave , but this CSR seemed certain November 15 was the date. I asked what type and he said he thought it was Chip Sig . I only mention this because when I first got my WF rewards card one week ago, I got through to a CSR who thought it was Chip and pin. Also she checked with her supervisor and he said they may be releasing new cards in time for the holidays.... Fingers crossed

...
 

China is run by communists. It is a lot easier to setup a single payment system when you control the banks, the economy, and the payment systems. If people don't like their government or its chosen standards, too bad or risk going to jail for a long time for exercising unwelcome free speech. and civil rights. Why bother setup competing organizations, all under the same communist government? The Chinese may be uninterested in human rights, but they aren't stupid. (Even when they appear to have competing companies (e.g. Airlines to make this on topic for FlyerTalk), they are still controlled by the same operation behind the scenes.

Why would you (or jamar) want to force private companies to merge together? Business decisions should be made by businesses, just as you should get to decide whether you want a Visa, Mastercard, both or none. Remember that the online payment networks that you mentioned weren't created by their current owners. They were created by banks in their original geographic areas. For example NYCE (originally New York Cash Exchange) was formed by New York banks who started peering agreements for their in house ATM networks. Later it merged with similar networks that had formed in Boston and then throughout New England. But the decision to merge was not forced by the government.

I'm not sure what you mean about needing a "standardized" debit network. You can use any debit card pretty much anywhere debit cards are accepted, without worrying what network it is on. The competing networks do cooperate with each other (and collect fees from each other for doing so) to ensure payments go through rapidly.

Your 50 year comment about ACH is interesting, but ACH works with regional organizations as well. And note that many online debit transactions are cleared via ACH behind the scenes.

As I mentioned many pages back (this thread has really gotten off topic) we received a notice about this for our WF business cards back in October and I am currently traveling with my newly issued WF EMV Business Mastercard. It took less than a week to get the card and a few days more to get the PIN.

I'm beginning to suspect that it is Chip-and-Sig as first priority and then Chip-and-PIN. I was able to buy train tickets at a kiosk (SNCB) with no problem as Chip-and-PIN, but last night's dinner payment was treated as Chip-and-Signature. I'll keep collecting experiences and report back.

Huh? :confused:

I never said anything about forcing private companies to merge together.


If true, it would be welcome news to bring another competitor into the field. WF was the first of the major US banks to announce they were piloting EMV back in 2011-04 to a small test group who travel internationally.

Since then, they've kept relatively mum about their EMV plans for consumers, while slowly introducing them to their WellsOne Commercial cards and to their By Invitation cards aimed at their private wealth management clients.

And as noted in the post before me, it seems WF has begun issuing cards for business cards last month.

If what you say turns out to be true to trickle down to their consumer card line ups this month, that will be welcome news as another option that will be available for many Americans.

Although in the context of FT of putting importance over the fee fine prints and rewards earnings, WF hasn't really been a big player in the CC offerings compared to BofA, Chase or Citi.

Got my EMV chip card (CSP) today. Just wanted to thank this thread. Love the wiki.

Just reconfirmed wells Fargo Will start issuing EMV enabled cards beginning November 15 2013. I am 95% sure it will be chip and pin because rep said "pin will be system generated and cannot be personalized" Will probably still have 3% fee though.