General Churning Guidelines?
 

The special credit card offers master thread is a terrific thread. Thank you UA Fan. And UA Fan, I’m sure we all hope you have a wonderful vacation. I’m not sure if that thread is “Closed” due to your vacation or on a permanent basis, hence this new thread.

One comment/question about the listings . An important part of the application decision process is to know if there is an annual fee and if that fee is waived the first year. A few of the listings in post #1 of that thread indicate “first year fee waived” or “fee waived”. Perhaps it would be possible to include that information for all listings in the future.

It would also be very helpful, in addition having one post and thread to see Credit Card offers, if we had something similar for Credit Card Churning theories and procedures for each respective bank and/or card.

There are lots of anecdotal reports around the forum along these lines. Barclay’s USAir will apparently allow more than one identical account, Citi will apparently not approve a new AA application within 16 or 18 months of a previous approval. Some banks will approve a card, send the card, activate the card, gladly accept usage of the card and then decline the bonus due to “not first time”.

One bank is good about rearranging credit from one card to another, another bank is not. Some banks have apparent limits on total number of accounts. Some banks have easily accessible Reconsideration departments, some do not.

Which other banks allow (having and also receiving the bonus) for more than one identical account? How long to wait before applying for a repeat of a card? From last approval or last cancellation? It would be excellent if we could read, in one location/thread, what is considered to be the situation for each bank and card.

It would also be helpful if that thread included the best application and reconsideration phone numbers.

Perhaps another sticky: “Churning Guidelines by Bank and/or Card”?

For whatever its worth, the following is a list of Credit Card Issuers phone numbers that I’ve compiled from several sources over the past year or so. It’s been very helpful for me, perhaps it might help others as well.

Thanks.

great idea, and thanks for the consolidated list of numbers. That's a great start!

Thank you Captain. It's always nice when the first reply to a post (especially when it's a new thread) is pleasant and complementary as opposed to a big flame! :)

yeah I would love something like this..but probably needs someone more knowledgable about churning then me to create it..

Excellent idea for a sticky! I'm not certain exactly how it would be organized. For instance, how would various folks' experiences with a given card brand (e.g., Citi AA) be consolidated? Would someone keep adding new data points to a given post? But that's a detail that I'm sure wiser FTers than me could figure out.

FYI: 866-606-2961 isn't working anymore.

I agree that we need all this information in one place, but who's going to continuously update the information?

great idea
 

Sounds like a full time job....thanks for compiling the list, very useful.

Thank you for the list. Maybe the moderator can sticky this, and someone can update it?

Perhaps when this launches it will solve some of the issues you mention.

http://www.cardchurner.com/

I'm sure the place has great intentions...but I don't think I like where is going.

> 888-201-4523 (? Business New App Approval Status)
> 800-645-7240, 800-288-4653, 800-750-7453 (App Status)

I believe you swapped those numbers around. I just called, the last three numbers are for Citi business. The first one is not.

Thanks. Bookmarking this.

I just tried this number. Worked fine, relatively short musical interlude, was told it is for status and reconsideration of both business and personal.

Just called the first (4523), long musical interlude, told it was for personal reconsideration but she could also look at a business application.

I’m far from an expert on this but I get the idea there is some overlap between personal and business.

Along the lines of “general churning guidelines”, curious how people view preparing for a churn fairly far off in terms of canceling existing accounts. I currently have all 3 Citi AA personal cards, two of them for about 2 years, one for about 6 months. In thinking about applying for one (or more) of them in the future, according to common wisdom, 18 months from last approval seems to be the best current theory. The question is when to cancel the existing accounts?

Don’t need to cancel to avoid annual fees, they are more than happy to credit them. Don’t need to cancel to transfer credit limits. So, cancel now, cancel a month prior to applications in a year, cancel sometime in-between? Might canceling sooner make one more likely to receive targeted offers? Thanks.

Before I put in my two cents. I think the thread title General Guidlines are important to remember. Now having said that...

It is a very good question. I don't think the date of cancel matters, it is about when you applied. As an extra caution I would still cancel my card several months out from when I wanted to churn.

I have read people having success churning Citi cards usually 12-18 months after. I read that a cpl of FT'ers who were approved for the Citi AAdvantage Visa or AmEx 8-9 months after having been approved for the Citi AA MasterCard (they also canceled the MasterCard a cpl months before). However I only saw that once or twice.

I also have a CC App Helper that has some phone numbers, general application waiting periods for each CC and CC Bonus History. Maybe you could add some of them to your list? Check it out.

Datapoint update; 866-606-2961 worked perfectly today.

Citi Hilton personal card application on line yesterday, pending, no email yet. Called today. First called 866-606-2787 (Maryland), was told declined due to too many inquires in past 6 months, usual long explanation to rep with no joy, asked for supervisor, repeat story, again no joy, offered address for executive resolution. Immediately called 800-763-9795 (South Dakota) asked rep if she had the ability and authority to review and override, rep said no, asked for supervisor, none available, one would call me back in 24-48 hours. Immediately called 866-606-2961 (South Dakota), rep said he could look into it, explained things, he asked about single letter typo in address, hold for 3 minutes, “congratulations, approved with a $25,000 credit limit” (said that’s what the system generated automatically).

Gotta love it. From declined to 25K in a moment (after 10-15 minutes on the phone). Their “rules” must be written by politicians;)! Some things make no sense!

(No comment regarding 3 females saying “no” and one male saying “yes”.:D)

(BTW, Citi 18 month personal card policy may only apply to AA cards as I still have 3 Citi AA cards with the most recent prior approval about 6 months ago. In all 3 calls I offered to shift credit limits and/or close an existing account which ended up being unnecessary.)

Did you go for the 40K or 50K app? I did the 40K, and I got an email before the card arrived for the 50K. Called, faxed the email, and I was told I'll get 50K.

consideration
 

here is a link to useful numbers: http://ficoforums.myfico.com/t5/Cred...rs/td-p/408066

I can't say I like the topic one bit though. It sounds like your trying to make a churning guidebook, which no doubt would be repeated by countless bloggers and once it makes it to the greedy fools at slickdeals and fatwallet, "churning" what little is left of it, would come to an end.

You don't need a sticky or a guidebook, if you have concerns about churning a card look into the discussions about that....having to read and research a churn will eliminate thousands of lazy newbees who want something for nothing, and easy instructions.
I'm not against sharing info, like the fact that you cant "churn" Chase cards. but if one was churnable, and the fact was broadcast with easy rinse and repeat instructions, how long until the card company kills it?
I think all the old threads on FT talking about churning citi cards, probably contributed to them finally closing the loophole, and this was a few years ago when you didnt have dozens of travel bloggers talking about CC bonuses.
All the info for any card you can think about is out there already, if your too lazy to search for it, then you probably don't need to know.
Another good reason to not do a thread like this, there is no set in stone formula.....each card company has many variables and there is no guarantee that what works for 1 or even 10 people will work for you, there is no published time limit between applications...approval depends on the applicant.
getting bonus points twice for a card is not allowed according to the fine print in most all applications today, from every company. Do you really want to point out in headline print which companies have unwritten time limits, and what they are?....might as well send a letter to their legal and promotions departments, screaming "look at your loopholes"
Bottom line is, people who want to find out, can do so with very little work.
Dont spoonfeed the lazy bottom feeders, they will come out of the woodwork enmasse and ruin the deal.

I agree with this...even tho I am a newbee and have a ton to learn, I don't want the easy way. It can ruin it for the people willing to put in the time.

I used the 50K link but the application page doesn’t indicate anything about bonuses, it’s one of those “take it on faith” pages which seems common for Citi (as per all the old AA 75K and 100K application pages). I’ll confirm the bonus when I activate the account. Of course, the value of 10,000 HHonors Points is only about 18 cents so it’s not a big deal one way or the other;).

Thanks for the list of backdoor #s. The number that worked for me today is not on that list. I’ll pass on the virtues of how much information to share other than to write that the line between “just enough” and “too much” is very thin and undoubtedly somewhat variable. This forum has been very helpful for me. Prior to FT I was happy with accumulating 300K miles a year; in the year and a half since I found FT I accumulated almost 2 million miles. I’m just trying to give a little back to the community. I’m sorry you see it as being excessively informative.

Should have kept the 2nd post just in case for a wiki, however:

Chase & AmEx- 2yrs.
Citi- 18 months
BofA- 90 days
Barclays- 90 days

I tend to agree that it will do more harm than good. This readership is almost always on top of this topic, and for a good external source that emphasizes basics without overemphasizing churning, I find The Points Guy to be very good

To check the status of your Barclaycard application check this link:

https://www.barclaycardus.com/app/japply/retrieve.do

I agree too... we're only asking for trouble by waving red flags as to which ones work and don't, officially or otherwise. There aren't that many left and the ones that are, don't need to be called out any more than necessary. Usually you can pick up tidbits about one issuer or another elsewhere in FT. The info about what issuers/cards definitely cannot be churned is pretty easily available...a little deductive reasoning will lead to the most likely candidates that are.

Besides if in doubt about getting another bonus, take a chance and apply - worst case you don't get the second or third bonus, and wasted a pull (hopefully only one among several in your app-o-rama) and a couple of points on your credit score. Not a big deal in the grand scheme of things.

Maybe, but I think the CC companies are well aware of their guideliness, this posting them on FT or elsewhere probably doesn't alert them anymore than they already have been. The FIDO thread might be one to watch, but the big bonus in that one expires in a couple days anyway.

+1 As a newbie who has been reading many threads for the last nine months I agree if we make it too easy for everyone we will kill the Goose that lays the Golden Eggs

I must add that a very aggressive forum that I won't mention ,keeps their methodology for slaughtering these deals fairly secretive .

Let's not give away the entire store in one day !

When plastic recycling moves from being a dark art to a paint by numbers game it becomes bad for business. Who wants to risk their 500-1,000k of annual plastic recycling income? That simply would not be the green thing to do!:p

lol at calling it a 'Dark Art' which I guess it is. I agree with many here that posting small internal secrets for everyone to exploit just kills the game.

Agreed ... now pm me all of your secrets!

;)

Thanks. Good to know, but what's the basis of this? Your review of various FT threads and posts?

With all due respect,

There are many posts on this forum and this thread along the lines of: don’t share the secrets, it will ruin if for everyone. Isn’t the entire point of FlyerTalk to share information, be it considered secretive or not? If not, I’d appreciate it very much if someone would tell me which information should be shared and which shouldn’t be shared, apparently I’m not a very good judge of which is which. Thank you.

I'd tell you which info should and shouldn't be shared, but it's a secret.;)

Boy, oh, boy! All those pretzels make me chuckle.

Every "dark artist" here who thinks you can just "shush" information in this day and age, I have a few words for you: "THE CAT IS OUT OF THE BAG", and it ain't going back in, either. This secret society thinking is simply laughable to say the least.

Do you really, honestly believe that banks do not know about our little shenanigans? After all the exposure on CNN, WSJ, NYT, not even counting who knows how many bloggers - who the hell does not know about credit card churning? If they wanted to shut it down, they would, and they still might, but not because a few or a few dozens of Flyertalk members decide to share their wisdom with outsiders. Credit card churners will ALWAYS remain a tiny minority - a mere pimple on the face of the faceless population for giants like Citi, Amex, or Chase. You want to know why - think how many of your own friends and relatives have taken on churning after you told them. In my experience the number is ZERO.

So, please don't worry. You can yell about it from the Empire State Building or Oprah Show - that wouldn't change a thing. Most people are lazy, conservative, and most of all scared silly to try unconventional things. As to those who are more adventurous - how many of them, do you think, have the credit needed to go in this game? How many have the cash flow or stamina to play with gift cards in order to meet spending requirements?

Our secret is perfectly safe or it would be if there was really a secret. There is not! Please keep sharing:D

And Dr. Jabadski - great job. Thanks for the list. Helped me a couple times already.

A cautious path
 

I think this attitude is a little cavalier.

I've been through this argument several times in various communities. In my view, it boils down to this:
The US Mint is a good example. Once that method got national attention, it was fixed within weeks and now can't be used.

In my experience, the most prudent approach is to work on a barter type of system. The focus should be on trading information, not giving it away for free. That way you get out of it what you put in. The more research and investigation you do, the more valuable your knowledge becomes and the more you can leverage that knowledge to trade with others.

There will always be folks that want everyone to share information. Sometimes these are beginners who don't have any secrets of their own and are trying to learn. Sometimes it's folks that have a certain ideology about giving back to their community. Sometimes there are folks who haven't thought through the long-term consequences of their actions. Sometimes it's folks that stand to profit from sharing the information i.e. bloggers.

Either way, they are frequently the most vocal ones on the forums and it makes sense to be vocal. If you have very few secrets of your own or you benefit from sharing those secrets then it's in your best interest to try and get everyone else to tell you theirs.

However, it's not in the best interest of the community to widely share information in the long run. If everything was shared quickly and widely then everything would be fixed quickly and no one would be able to gain much benefit.

If, however, you focus on research and trading information then those who put in the time and effort to discover these methods are primarily the ones who benefit from them. This seems to be a much more sustainable model to me.

My two cents.

Indeed, the Mint obviously knew for a long time what was going on but let it ride, probably since it was helping their project managers show "results" as measured by sales of the coins. They put in place some mild restrictions after the first big round of attention, but it was still easily workable for awhile longer - until the last big article/radio bit where the Mint had no choice but to respond to cut it off.

I think there's a difference between the information being known and loosely "out there", and waving big red flags that may force another crackdown similar to the Mint situation. Yes, FT exists to share information. Somewhere there is a balance between the two extremes.

Although I have to agree with this I just have to add an important point.
It was not us that killed the US Mint coins. We only account for a very very small overall % of all the coins that were minted.
If anyone had read between the lines during the congressional hearings then the main fact of why they shut down the minted coins was the fact that the coins were not being circulated as intended. The main purpose of the coins was to replace the delicate paper dollar. After they found out that Billions of coins remained in storage (uncirculated) that proved the program was a bust and the main reason coins were stopped.

Maybe varies with individuals but I had applied for another Chase card over 30months after approval of last card and although a new card was approved, the bonus miles were denied due to not being a new member.

I also heard Amex had started clamping down on their cards also for non-1st timers. (although this I can't verify yet as I have yet to apply for another card).

Freez

In my experience, with Chase being able to get a 2nd bonus depends on the card and a few others things. I was able to get a 2nd bonus on my Marriott Premier card within 15 months. However they denied me a 2nd bonus on BA card even though I had put a different FF #. So yes, Chase is quite sophisticated and probably better than most but its system has its own loopholes :).