Was this FA correct?
 

I flew last night on CO 503 LAX-EWR with my GF. It is an 1130pm departure and we were in 3EF on a 757-200 so BF seats. I was already pretty tired and after boarding and getting situated reclined my seat about half way and put my leg rest up. There were already two people in the seat behind me.

It was just after 11 PM and a fairly full flight boarding through Door 1. About 10 minutes after I nodded off but about 10 minutes before scheduled departure a FA woke me to tell me I needed to put my seat up. I gave an "I know" thinking he meant once the door was closed but seeing I hadn't reacted he said, "Now, Sir" in a demanding tone.

I told him previously I had always been able to recline until pushback, and he simply replied "You are not allowed to recline your seat on the ground."

I will add when we boarded I went back to the Door 2 area to hang my garment bag (as I anticipated a Door 2 disembarkation at EWR) and this same FA seemed put out at the request. Perhaps I got off on the wrong foot with him. I noticed a couple other people had reclined as well, but not as far as me.

I felt sorry for the pax across from me who after hearing the FA make me put my seat back up also did so (although he wasn't asked). He then fell asleep in an upright position and didn't wake up until landing at EWR.

Anyway, is this truly a rule when sitting at the gate or just a moody FA?

Mere speculation here, but I assume it is a regulation, since in case of fire/smoke while parked at the gate, pax still to move. But it's probably not an enforced one - you got a moody FA.

Considering you were in BF, he could've been nicer about it.

I've never had anyone tell me to put my seat up until the door closed. I always thought the door close is the "anything with an off switch" announcement. If only moody PA's had off switches...

I wonder if you had been fully upright, but with your tray table out, if that would've been an issue.

I thought the rule was seatbacks must be in the upright and locked position for taxi, take-off, and landing only.

FA was incorrect, and rudely so at that. Sent a note to WE-CARE.

^+1

thanks... sent a note

i have to agree with the fa here, whether per protocol or not. I do understand you are on a red-eye and tired. However, the plane is still loading and the FA's are still trying to do their job and count passengers, etc. You failed to mention if the passengers behind you were already seated or not. If I was behind you, I would not have appreciated your seat reclined down to my knees, as it would have impeded my settling myself. I have taken red-eyes from LAX in business first and find it difficult to access my stuff with your seat in my lap. I do understand you want to get as much sleep as possible, but I for one do not take my sonatas until the plane is at 35K feet and out of the airport until I am sure there are no potential problems with my flight. If this is not the response you wanted to hear, I am sorry. You chose the red eye. You chose a crappy night's sleep. I am sorry that you have to wait until the plane is at 10K feet. So it goes.

That's correct, although CO policy augments it a little to include the time from when the door is closed until push-back (taxi). So just a little longer than the FAR. CO has no policy of requiring seats up, at the gate, with the door open.

Well the OP did mention that both the people behind his seat were seated and it seems that the FA was wrong and above all rude (which is the biggest problem here).
However, on an unrelated note, all these posts have me wondering what were they thinking when designing the BF seats, if the seat in front reclining can cause so much trouble for the person behind it. I've never traveled in BF before but will be doing so soon EWR-SFO.

Let me know how you get an F seat on a 752 to recline far enough to interfere with the pax behind you. Lighten up :rolleyes:

Thanks, but my question was, "is this a rule, or was the FA winging it?"

I understand I have to have my seat back in an upright position for taxi and takeoff, and I also noted that the pax behind me seemed seated comfortably before I reclined (half way - not into their lap).

Sorry, but I don't think CO's operating rules and regulations has a section marked "so it goes." :D

This is why I rarely post here, as I do not need to get flamed by my comments. Nevertheless, no matter what plane you are on, you chose the red eye, you chose the crappy night's sleep and have some consideration for the person behind you and keep the seat upright until takeoff. Try to deal with it, everyone else seems to.

That sounds more like a personal agenda. What is most relevant in this discussion (and your position may vary on this) is CO's policy on this and the FA's implementation of it.

Nobody was flaming you. Your comments were just unrelated to what happened.

The people behind were settled in. I take cat naps while on the ground frequently - there can be as much as 45 minutes or more if there are delays from boarding to push back. My issue was not related to whether or not the flight was a red eye. In fact on my flight out, a 3pm departure, we sat on the ground at EWR for multiple hours and I reclined and slept.

The question was if the FA was correct in stating that his request was policy, or was he doing it for some other reason. Please stop trying to make this a case of etiquette as it is not. You are ignoring my questions and creating some alternate scenario you want to answer.

First of all your post stated an 1130 pm departure. That impresses upon me your need for sleep. If you like to recline immediately upon entry on all flights, then so be it. I do understand the point of this thread is to understand the "official" CO policy regarding reclining before takeoff. I have had the occasion to board late in BF on 762 and 764. I do admit I seldom fly continental other than from LAX to HNL to GUM, so I am not familiar with the 752's. Nevertheless to address your initial inquiry, I have asked people in front of me, most of which are CO employees in BF (another thread), to move their seatbacks up to allow me better access to the area under the seat in front of me and never had a problem. I also have never had to escalate this to the FA so I can't tell you whether they would have supported me on this. It can be tight behind the seats in this BF arrangement, once the seat in front of you is reclined. I realize I do not have 4000+ posts to my name and do not have your experience on FT, nonetheless I do have a great experience with the airline and hope that if it is not a policy to enforce keeping seatbacks up before takeoff, it should be.

That said, if the plane is in a delayed situation, and takeoff is nowhere in sight, I do agree that rules should be relaxed. All of this is common sense.

I do agree with the original post that if the OP is seated, slightly reclined, (not on someone's lap) on a red-eye, and the people behind are seated comfortably, and reading, listening to music, etc. There is no reason to enforce some policy, regardless of the rule, if everyone is happy.

Asides from the FA having a mood on, the only other reason I can think of, especially if nothing was said to the other at-the-gate recliners on your flight, is that the person(s) behind you, while you were sleeping, said to or signaled the FA that you were encroaching in their space too much too early. They didn’t want to confront you directly, so they asked the FA if he would. Much like I don’t want to contact the people in the room next door to me in a hotel myself if they’re too loud late at night, but will phone the front desk and ask them to deal with it. If you were sleeping, you wouldn’t’ve known. Rather than give the people behind you up on their request, the FA did the “it’s regulation” thing to keep them out of it.

Pure conjecture on my part, FWIW, and doesn’t make it right. He could’ve simply asked you to move your seatback up a bit.

Actually, directly behind me was a girl - maybe 10 years old, traveling with a man who looked to be early 20s. They appeared to be reclined slightly and playing/doing something with their cellphones - iPhones.

I did write CO and will be interested in their response. It may be well it is policy, although I have never seen it enforced. It will be interesting to find out.

Uh...did you miss post #9?

When I'm flying on a red-eye in F, I always try to get the window seat in the last row. I usually don't get up during flights so the window is better so I can sleep the whole time. I've found that in the back row, I can usually (at least partially) recline while still at the gate and not have to bring my seat up for takeoff. Since it's the back row with a bulkhead right behind, it's not in anyone's way so I guess the FA's turn a blind eye. This tends to work better when both seats are reclined so there's no basis for comparison.

I have yet to try this in a BF seat but I'm guessing the response wouldn't be as favorable.

Actually if you want to be techinical about it. All passengers must be in their seats with their seatbelts fastened, seatbacks and tray tables up, and all overhead bins closed PRIOR to closing the main cabin door. The main cabin door can only be closed when the "cabin is secured" as an FAR, and all of the above must be in compliance for the cabin to be secured.

So in reality a flight attendant does have the ability to say "your seat must be up" during boarding, in securing the cabin before closing the door.

But what actually happens is a different story, and that is flight attendants may be busy during boarding counting meals, greeting pax, taking drink or meal orders (for f-class), or maybe just chatting it up with the other fa's in the galley... :) So it's rarely enforced and instead it is all done on pushback when the compliance check is done. If you were to have a random FAA inspector obviously you would follow the rules by the book...

In any case the OP said he was the only one asked to put their seat up, and the fellow pax also reclined weren't. So it was prob just a cranky fa, trying to take it out on the pax for having to work an all-nighter.

I like my sleep, and I like going to bed early (boring I know), as a flight attendant I hated working red-eye flights. But I was still nice to pax, considering in reality you only deal with them during boarding and deplanning, and for the most part the majority fall asleep once you turn off the lights before take-off... :)

Untrue, because PAX can actually still be standing when the door is closed. However, all overhead bins must be closed prior to door closure as well as bags stowed. The principle is that, while presumably there is always a place to stow a person (in their seat) there may not be a place to put all of the luggage unless compliance is verified before the door is closed and if the plane isn't moving, PAX who aren't seated can't be hurt.

Technically, per CO policy (and I think it's safe to assume they don't have a published policy in direct violation of an FAR), seat backs don't have to be up until the moment the AC commences movement. This goes for tray tables, seat belts, footrests etc. Once the door is closed though, it's assumed that the AC could be pushing back at any moment so it's appropriate to prepare for movement (sometimes we push literally one or two minutes after the door is closed). Prior to door closure, it's impossible for the AC to move so the recline is allowed.

Door closure:
(b) No certificate holder may allow all passenger entry doors of an airplane to be closed in preparation for taxi or pushback unless at least one required crewmember has verified that each article of baggage is stowed in accordance with this section and §121.285 (c) and (d).

Movement:
(a) No certificate holder may move an airplane on the surface, take off, or land when any food, beverage, or tableware furnished by the certificate holder is located at any passenger seat.

(b) No certificate holder may move an airplane on the surface, take off, or land unless each food and beverage tray and seat back tray table is secured in its stowed position.

Note that seat recline isn't even addressed in the FAR's and I haven't found it yet. Note also that this is why we're supposed to take your pre-departure drink before taxi and all items prior to landing.

EDIT: Found it. If you really want to get technical (and I like to), seat backs DON'T have to be up for taxi, only take off and landing (but CO policy still supplants this):
Title 14: Aeronautics and Space
PART 121—OPERATING REQUIREMENTS: DOMESTIC, FLAG, AND SUPPLEMENTAL OPERATIONS
Subpart T—Flight Operations

§ 121.571 Briefing passengers before takeoff.

(A) The placement of seat backs in an upright position before takeoff and landing.

You are actually right! :) My friend checked his CO FA manual, overhead bins and emergency equipment checked is all required prior to closing the door. PRIOR TO PUSHBACK is seatbelts, seatbacks, tray tables, etc. So I'm sorry, my bad...

My friend and I were getting the UA and CO policies confused. If you've worked for another airline, you know the first training you get as FA never goes away no matter how many airlines you work for afterwards. :)

PS. It's not a violation to talk about safety procedures of an airline, but it is to talk about threat levels/security procedures, and BTW I'm no longer a FA, the furloughs and layoffs got tiring...

Yes, thanks! I thought the FA request sounded strange as I had never been asked to do so 10 minutes before departure, nor ever seen FAs on any airline asking pax to do it.

Particularly annoying as that I had dosed off, so the FA purposely woke me up with the request.

Hopefully my email to CO will reach his supervisor so he can be better trained.

From the safety demo: "...Customers are required to observe all posted and lighted information signs, and adhere to crewmembers’ instructions."

EDIT: Found it. If you really want to get technical (and I like to), seat backs DON'T have to be up for taxi, only take off and landing (but CO policy still supplants this):
Title 14: Aeronautics and Space
PART 121—OPERATING REQUIREMENTS: DOMESTIC, FLAG, AND SUPPLEMENTAL OPERATIONS
Subpart T—Flight Operations

§ 121.571 Briefing passengers before takeoff.

(A) The placement of seat backs in an upright position before takeoff and landing.[/QUOTE]

As per the Flight attendant safety checklist prior to push back from the gate seat back, tray tables, headrests,footrests and monitors stowed"

A crewmember (or any other employee) does not have the authority to invent a policy and then demand adherence to it.

Response from CO
 

Thank you for taking the time to contact us regarding the unpleasant flight experienced you encountered.

Please accept my sincere apology for the service events you encountered with the flight attendant on flight 530 on August 30, 2009. Continental employees are expected to provide our customers with friendly, courteous, efficient service at all times. There is no excuse for unprofessional behavior. Please know that our In-flight management will do their best to identify the individual involved and ensure appropriate action is taken. Additionally, your letter will be included in future training sessions.

Thank you again for bring this matter to our attention. We value customers like yourself who take the time to inform us of our service and the opportunity to identify areas where we may improve our service. We will continue to work hard to earn your future patronage.

Thank you for choosing Continental Airlines.


Regards,

Congratulations, you've just taken an entirely harmless, pointless, and trivial experience and put it on a probably overworked and normally excellent FA's permanent record, all because you instigated his "rude" response with your childlike and defiant "it's never been a problem before" attitude. Regarding "I know", you know how nauseating it gets to remind "expert" fliers about their phones needing to be off only to be told, "I know!"?? Well, if you know, turn the damn thing off. I'm sure you're quite pleased with yourself.

Seriously, how would you guys like us to file a report with the FAA every time you get up while the seat belt sign is on, or are still using your blackberry/iphone after door closure? Because we have the authority to do that, but we don't act like children when it comes such trivial things, unlike some of our "valued customers". Give me a break, complaining about such trivial bullcrap.

Could be just me, but I read the Continental response as "Yeah, whatever, get over it", but in the form of a standard customer service apology.

If there was actually anything done wrong to the OP, Continental would've done more than say "Sorry bout that". Maybe some miles, maybe certificate for future travel, a drink coupon, anything!

They'll include this letter in future training manuals so that FA's know how annoying passengers can be.

Ummmmmmmm, the FA was wrong :rolleyes: Next time somebody asks him to hang a suit bag perhaps instead of copping an attitude and trying to annoy the passenger, he will remember that it is great service that took CO from "worst to first" and that a smile and being nice is a better way to winner customers. I did absolutely nothing wrong and was polite with him - surprised to be waken up, but polite. Why defend a colleague that was wrong? Overall CO is at the top of the U.S. network carriers IMHO. That's a reflection of the job most of your colleagues do whether they were having a good day or bad day. It's called be a professional and fortunately lots of the CO folks I have come in contact are ^

If the FA is "excellent", then he wouldn't have allowed himself to be "instigated" into being rude. A hallmark of excellence, especially in a customer service oriented career, is generally not rudeness. Further, if he really is "excellent", surely the overwhelming number of stellar compliments he has in his personnel file far outshine this one, measly complaint.

As for reporting to the FAA, certainly, it is your authority to report travelers who break the rules. However, in the grand scheme of things, the customer has the power in the relationship. If you decided to start filing complaints and it affected the traveler at all, it would not take the traveler long at all to discontinue his relationship with your company. If you do this often enough, you've guaranteed yourself the loss of your job. Please don't delude yourself and don't make empty threats.

I apologize if this sounds rude; I'm just trying to present my views as matter-of-factly as possible. It seems to me that, as elonepb stated, the letter from CO is an appeasement gesture, with no real action planned behind it.

Regardless of how "form" the response might sound, I guarantee the complaint is forwarded to In-Flight, where it will be forwarded to his base director and base supervisor. What's sad is customer compliments (as rare as they are) take anywhere from 3-5 months to get back to a flight attendant. A customer complaint is handled within a matter of days or weeks.

I'm not saying he wasn't rude; I'm saying something so trivial and minor shouldn't be reported, which will result in him being either a) called in on a day off, or b) called into his supe's office before a trip, potentially delaying a flight or causing him to be replaced in order to send the flight out on time.

Every crewmember, even the excellent ones, have good and bad days. What I'm saying is respect and understanding is a two-way street. Just as it is absurd for us to file FAA reports for incidents as minor as the examples I gave, it's also absurd for passengers to file a complaint about something as minor as a bad attitude when trying to hang a garment bag. I consider myself an excellent flight attendant, who always treats the customer with respect and understanding, even the ones who don't notice me or acknowledge me until they need something. But I had a lady complain once about my attitude as I cleaned her 7 year old daughter's vomit up single-handed, while she proceeded to scream at me the entire time. My response? "Shut up and let me do my job (granted, it's not even our job to clean up or handle bodily fluids), or clean it up yourself. I am trying to help you, and I will NOT be spoken to like that." The customers around the woman applauded.

You are the one who is delusional, I believe, if you think it's common for FAs to receive compliments. Granted, I don't think we deserve compliments for doing our job - just as I don't think we deserve complaints for a bad day or something as trivial as a grumpy response.

And I wasn't making a threat; I was making a point, which you apparently failed to see.

Let me just say that rudeness is a no-no
so I understand your problem with the Fa's attitude.
But with that aside, let me try to understand you. You said you fell a sleep 10 minutes after 11pm and your scheduled departure was 11:20?
You do know that 10minutes later you would have had to bring your seat back up, it must be done prior to push back from the gate.
So my question is, can you get that much rest in 10 minutes? Just asking.

I think it's probably more common than you think for excellent FAs to receive compliments. My point, which you apparently missed, is that this particular FA is anything but excellent. From what the OP wrote, he's rude and apt to make up regulations (aka "lie") to fit his own purposes. It is every customer's right and duty (to himself, to other customers, and to management) to report inappropriate behavior he or she experiences.

If your offer to file an FAA report "every time you get up while the seat belt sign is on, or are still using your blackberry/iphone after door closure" isn't merely an empty threat, I invite you to do so. Of course, I don't expect you to put your money where your mouth is.

Sigh, yet another thread reduced to name-calling and such. It's a shame that we exploit the fact that there are good FAs (and GAs and one Insider) on this forum, and instead of understanding both sides of the relationship, we're reduced to threats.

Once again, it was not an offer, and not a threat. It was a point being made that as absurd as that is, which is why we take the high road and don't do, it's also absurd for customers to get pissed about such trivial things, and they too should take the high road and not waste their time, or our time, filing complaints over such minor details.