That is IF the majors are hiring. Unfortunately, unlike 20 years ago, regionals are doing much of the flying that the majors did at one time. This reduces the need for major airline pilots and increases the amount of time pilots are at a regional airline.

Saying that a regional is a "stepping stone" to a job at a major airline is a very poor excuse as to why the pay is so low.

Checko

my cousin flies the 145s for CHQ, graduated from embry riddle in AZ and was an instructor for a while there. he's an FO who's got well over 1000 hours and is hoping to land a job on a 170. i feel safe with him any day. he mostly flies for CO and is based in Buffalo

I would disagree with this. While I'm sure you might be able to cite an example here and there, I will submit to you that the vast majority of pilots have a Bachelor's Degree at a minimum......it's nearly an unspoken requirement to have one. That would put the absolute youngest at 21-22.

I will occasionally run into someone from XJ who does not have a degree, but again, it's an extremely rare case. While they might hire that young, it is the exception I believe, not the norm.

DRW

If you don't hold the nose up during the stall recovering on a checkride in a transport category airplane you will fail. The FAA requires the recovery with "minimal altitude loss". Push the nose down, like this crew needed to do to positively recover, and you'll lose a few hundred feet of altitude and you'll bust your checkride. To pass you must hold the nose well above the horizon while you power-out of the stall. When you're surprised on the line you're going to do it the way you trained even if that's wrong.

Almost right. Yes to "minimal altitude loss". But it is necessary to relax back pressure..not lower the nose and certainly NOT pulll back on the yoke.


I didn't..and still don't have a college degree...yet flew 9+ successfull years for XJT.;)

When you do the stalls in the sim the airplane is slowing and you are trimmed for a higher airspeed so you have to continue to pull pretty hard to hold the nose up during the stall recovery. In my last airliner, the nose never dropped below 10° ABOVE level during the stall recovery. If it did, you would lose several hundred feet of altitude and would fail the maneuver. On the accident flight the airplane had been slowly very rapidly and was on autopilot until the stick shaker activated. It was likely in a more nose-low trim configuration than you are in the sim due to the slow rate at which the autopilot trims. When the stall warning activated the autopilot disengaged automatically and the nose tried to drop very quickly due to the trim setting. Following the stall recovery procedure for which he was trained required a lot of back pressure on the yoke.

Yes...if you are talking a turbo-jet plane...absolutely right. But turbo-props are a little bit different. You don't "power out" of a stall on a turbo-prop. I started on the EMB-120 at XJT and remember that you had to relax a little back pressure. Almost like a power off stall in a BIG C-172. I agree with trying to hold the nose up...but it seems from the transcipts that the PF was actually trying to raise the nose.

I have slightly more turboprop time than I do jet. Same situation.

I'm not at XJT any more, but many of my friends still are. When I was there, I never met anyone hired at 19. It may have been the official age you could apply, but the airline was certainly not awash in teenagers. I don't have any familiarity with Colgan, but I'm pretty sure the most junior FO at XJT has at least two years on the ERJ and the most inexperienced CA at XJT probably has five years flying the ERJ. There are a few other regionals out there like XJT, where the pay and work rules are decent enough that pilots stick around longer than average for a "regional". I'm not positive, but I'm pretty sure that American Eagle pilots on average have been flying at their company longer than the pilots at many LCCs like AirTran and JetBlue...and perhaps America West. Also, many "young" pilots started flying so young that when you see them at 28 in the cockpit of your aircraft they could have 13 years of flying experience. Some pilots start flying as a second career like the captain of the BUF crash and have relatively low time even though they're middle aged. Basically, you can't determine the experience level of your crew based on what airplane they're flying or how old they are. All airline pilots, regardless of age or airplane, have to meet the FAA requirements to fly your aircraft.

I agree with LarryJ's analysis of how approaches to stalls are performed in the sim being a factor. There's a fine line between a perfect recovery and getting the pusher on a stall recovery. It's very possible that the captain was attempting the stall recovery he was trained to do, but adrenaline and fatigue led to him botching the recovery and the subsequent upset attitude.

That seems most likely to me based on the information that is currently available. Just watch the ADI during the initial portion of the upset.

I think that we should change how we train for stalls. The current requirements turn it into a game of learning how to make the simulator minimize altitude loss without getting a secondary stick shaker. Also, too much emphasis on the profile for setting up the stall, which you'll never use in real life, instead of on making a prompt, positive recovery before a more serious upset develops.

maybe there is room for some better simulations, or some tweaks to the software to make them act more realistic. There is big money in simulators, so they should strive to get it as accurate as possible. I know taking a real plane out at such risk by doing a stall intentionally is putting too many people as risk and too costly, but there has to be something better to give some hands on training.

Have you seen the NTSB animation? Give it a look, they did a nice job on it. It shows the airplane in freespace and shows throttle, gear, flaps , aileron and rudder controls. He did firewall the engine but he was battling too many things, he needed to let some airspeed pick up. He had flaps at 5, got another 5 degrees at 135KIAS and then everything falls off, too much drag. The stick shaker engaged at 130KIAS, the stick pusher engages at 105KIAS, he dumps the flaps at 80KIAS. He raises the nose but he can't gain enough speed. He had the thing all the way down to 79 knots in a steep nose up attitude (>30 degrees). He exceeded the critical angle of attack and we all know what happens. The thing looks uncoordinated and it winged over. Sure looks like a spin to me but give it a look and see if you are seeing what I am. Also check out the rudder going one way full deflection and the ailerons going the other. Cross-control stall. Yes, I have done hundreds of stalls with less than 100 feet of altitude loss and the first thing you have to do is get some airspeed going. He also dumped out of the flaps before he had established a positive rate of climb.

--PP

The animation is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33NUAy3eomg

I stand corrected on "relax back pressure" vs. lower the nose. What I was getting at and put it poorly was STOP trying to pull it up!

--PP

Yes, many times. Prior to seeing the NTSB animation I thought that he was probably incorrectly applying the recovery procedure for a tailplane stall. After watching the animation quite a few times I now believe that he was applying the simulator stall recovery procedure with a bit too much enthusiasm.

No, you have to continue to pull up to hold the nose up well above the horizon or you're going to lose too much altitude and fail the maneuver. It's a dumb way to train but it is required.

You seem very adamant about this..care to explain on which type of plane you fly? Or have experience?

And I can tell you that 100% that is not right. At the time of stick shaker you have to "freeze" your pitch....if you continue to pull you will go straight to stick-pusher. And it is not necessary to continue to pull to maintain the pitch because at recovery your speed will stabilize and then start to recover...more quickly on a turbo-prop due to quicker engine spool up. And all this is true from a E120/145 up to B747. (And I have experience in those extremes.)