CO to implement 1K?
 

With the many subtle changes happening at CO (perhaps in anticipation of *A transition), perhaps it would be prudent to anticipate and further discuss the creation of a 1K tier in OP.

Thoughts on this? I know there has been some sentiment pro and con for such a move.

Don't think so. There's enough of a variance of *A FFP's and the relative ease or lack thereof in gaining alliance Silver or Gold. TK and TG come to mind for ease.

CO has already stated that it does not plan to raise the top tier above 75K. Who knows, it could change. In terms of earning miles - CO has equalized the mileage bonus to 100% for top, and 2nd tier - same as United. The only difference then becomes upgrade priorities and some savings in fees. But with no reciprocal upgrades between CO and UA then the mileage to earn top tier does not matter between the airlines.

So in terms of earning miles to redeem - CO and UA are the same: 100% for tiers 1 and 2, and 25% for tiers 3. With 50K requirement for 2nd tier the same, minimum amount of flying to earn the 100% bonus is the same.

I would expect an equalization of redemption levels. The only issue I see is international lounge access for mid-tier on CO.

IMHO, it's virtually inevitable for CO to go to 100K for the Platinum tier, but they can likely delay such a change until the 2010 Elite year because the UA codeshare and Star membership will come so late in 2009.

I expect CO and UA to offer just as many reciprocal Elite benefits as CO/NW, and for commercial reasons this will dictate harmonized Elite qualification levels.

Far more worrying, IMHO, is the possibility of CO adopting UA's approach to Star Alliance partners and not award Elite bonus miles for most Star Alliance partner flights.

With that said, I hope they do not. It is far much more difficult to attain 75,000 EQMs in CO than it is for UA. UA has had their double EQMs promo, allows members to accrue segments from its * partners (US and LH come to mind), and generally have a more liberal mileage-giving policies. Also, if you think about it, US has 4 Elite tiers..why are they not aligned more with UA (or vice versa)?

US and UA don't offer fully reciprocal Elite benefits to their respective members ala CO/NW.

correct, but you get full EQMs and EQSs on UA when flying US. It's the only reason I have been able to retain Premier on UA this year.

I agree; I think it's only a matter of time too. I think I'll check out the United levels; going from 50 to 100k would be a huge leap for most flyers.

I too think that CO and UA might surprise us with the extent of the integration between the two airlines. Time will tell.

If they raise top tier to 100K, there better be a stack of SWUs to go along with it and a drop of the 50% EQM rule.

I used to hit 100 K on CO easily the last few years between work and personal travel, now work travel has slowed down so it will be hard for me to even reach 75k never mind 100k

I would hope with the business travel slowdown so many people are having that CO would not implement this now.

Is this not what a lot of people have been asking for? People want a reason to fly CO for more than 75k miles, and have better benefits for doing so. It would make the Platinum Elite pool smaller, and in return CO might kick in some extra privileges to being Platinum.

I have been reading some trip reports on another airliners dot net site. They happen to have a true international 1st class, and there are MANY things that we could integrate into our BF product. There are many things you can say about CO, however they do listen to FF, and to a lesser extent employees (which I still give them credit for, not many airlines do). I will send an e-mail off stating the little things that we could change, that will in turn prove to be big changes to the customer. (and after reading about a couple trip reports in international 1st class, I am ALL FOR us trying to implement it).

I realize that a true 1st class product would only be limited to plane types, but I think we could do it. Put 1st class on our 777 and 787 A/C, as we only do/will fly them to "important" places (and this will change after us joining Star). There is no reason (other than the bean counters not thinking it will happen) for us to not do a TRUE 1st class. It would be inspiring for the F/A's to know we had a product that competed with the "Asian carriers".

I will end this post now, however I truly believe that we COULD compete with the best in the world, something no domestic legacy carrier can say. We do truly have a team of employees that are willing to bring us to the next step. It will take the FF to convince the management that it is something companies are willing to pay for though.

Only time will tell.

The folks asking for a reason to fly more than 75K are looking for an additional tier or benefits, not more difficulty making it to the top one in the program.

As for the desire to compete with the Asian carriers, you can do that just as soon as the USA changes the laws reflecting pay, gender bias, workplace discrimination and other such things. And, on top of that, the accountants would have to come up with a justification for it. I just don't see that happening anytime soon.

Not to mention US airlines would have to get even larger subsidies then what they recieve now.

As for a "True First Class" in think BF is a solid product and with the new seats I really dont see the need for CO to have a 1st. Sure it is nice, but I doubt it would help the bottom line

I'm on pace (with current bookings and plans) to come close to 100K this year. I wonder if CO might do something to recognize (and reward :p) those who hit 100K this year as a precursor to possible (*A alignment) changes for 2010.

Fully agreed. Lets see what happens. But I suspect auto upgrades might fade away. But who knows? I am not an expert on this board.

CO indicated at the DO that the current upgrade system and 75K for top tier suits them and they do not plan to change - when *A comes along.

From the DO

In order to keep EUA's the 50% rule stays. SWUs too expensive right now, powers that be will continue to study :rolleyes:.

Good - it suits me just fine too :)

Keeping UA Elites out of our exit rows and upgrade lists will suit me nicely too, as it's doubtful we will be getting access to E+ or upgrades on UA. They can pay 15K miles to upgrade on us, and I will cash in 15K miles to upgrade on them.

+1. CO has a tough time delivering on upgrades for people who live in heavy Elite markets, something's got to give.

As a Plat with a 33% upgrade rate last year (most of which were on connections), I would love to see a certificate-based program at CO.

Why? So you can spend money on upgrades that won't clear? You're better off looking for cheap A and B fares that clear into F during booking.

The cost of certs plus airfare for a roundtrip transcon on UA likely exceeds the lowest published B fare on CO.

It depends on your elite level and flying patterns. Many 1k's can confirm a transcon at booking using a free cert. This year that meant there were quite a few 1K's flying business class SFO-JFK for $178. It probably doesn't make business sense, but the UA system certainly makes it easier for cheap elites to upgrade.

You are neglecting the fact that all UA elites, and most especially 1Ks, get many free certs: 4 500-mile upgrades per 10,000 miles flown, plus 6 or 8 or some similar number of certs good for one one-way domestic upgrade each, plus 6 or 8 or some such SWUs good for one one-way domestic or international upgrade each. That's a lot of free upgrades, certainly enough to exceed most CO plat's free upgrade percentages.

Not all UA elites have great success at upgrading. Anyone below 1K who flies primarily domestic routes will only get enough upgrade instruments to upgrade around 20% of his or her flights. I'm sure there are Silvers on CO who are doing better than that if they have the right travel patterns.

I highly doubt a 1K who flies 100k a year, mostly domestic, is ever going to earn sufficient free certs to upgrade all of their flights - you're going to have to start reaching into your pocket at some point. Some folks here stated that you don't need to upgrade all of your flights, you just pick and choose the important ones.

If so, what is the benefit of the UA program? At least at CO, I have a good chance (depending on my travel patterns) to upgrade each and every one of my flights.

If a CO Plat is experiencing very low upgrade success due to their travel patterns, I think they should consider switching to either UA or AA if that works better for them - and not suggesting that CO change its program which still works perfectly well for the rest of us.

I'm fine taking my chances with EUA. If there is a CO flight I must upgrade on, then I either cash in 15K or buy B or A fares.

1K really works out better for people who mix short haul, transcon and international because of the mix of upgrades you get. A 1K who flies reglularly (i.e. more than 10,000 miles every quarter) will earn a minimum of 6 System Wide Upgrades (includes international flights - confirmable at booking), 8 confirmed regional upgrades (North America confirmable at booking) and 40 500-mile upgrades (confirmed at a window similar to CO's plat window). It requires some balancing, and might require an occasional mileage redemption upgrade for a transcon, but I would say the 1K who flies an international/domestic mix or entirely transcons will do much better on UA than CO. Now, if you are making plat flying short segments such as NYC-FL, then you would likely do better with an unlimited upgrade program like CO as long as CO doesn't sell out its F cabin before the upgrade window. Also, if you don't fly enough to make 1K then you are probably better off with CO (except for transcons), as Premier Executive (equivalent to Gold) only gets you 20 e-500's, and using them is quite difficult.

Has anyone heard anything different than a "late 2008" entry to *A? I'm getting annoyed with flying UA and US and not getting those miles to count towards status on CO! ;)

lets do the math for a 1K.

4 E500 milers per 10k miles.
So just using those you get upgraded 1/6th of the time
Upgrade percentage 16.5%
10K BIS + 2K upgrades

CR-1s
2 per 10k. I'll use EWR-LAX as the standard. EWR-LAX = 2,500 appx.
Upgrade percentage 33%
10K BIS + 5K upgrades.

Using SWUs domestically raises the total percentage to just over 50-60%

So if you fly nothing but EWR-LAX, UA's cert system is better than CO.

Lets look at mid-cons, EWR-IAH=1,400 miles and IAH-SEA=1,800 miles, I am going to use 1,500 just to make the math easier.

E500 milers are the same, 16.5%

Cr-1s
10K base + 3,000 miles, that equals a 23% upgrade percentage.

The overall total is 40 to 45% depending. + the SWUs which add another 5%


The results are pretty clear, the longer your base flight the better the UA system is for you. Now, for the short to medium range flyer the CO system is better. My flight IAH-ATL is 689 miles which would give me an upgrade percentage of 28% which is clearly below the 2/3 I am at for the year.

It will occur "promptly" following the departure from SkyTeam that is scheduled for October 24th. That's all anyone is saying at this point. Speculation runs rampant as to whether that means October 25th, November 1, January 1, 2010 or some other date, but none of us actually know as far as I can tell.

Why reach into your pocket? You just fly coach. It's the same result on CO when your upgrade doesn't clear, except a bit more legroom (and no cheeseburger).



I'm showing 20% upgrades off the e500s alone. 2,000 miles of upgrade for every 10,000 flown. There's some waste using them for suboptimal flights (2 x 500 for a 700-mile flight). There also can be a bonus when using them for connections.

The other piece to factor in is the op-up on UA. While it's not published, it happens every now and then. A byproduct of the cert-based program is that there are a number of flights were people don't bother upgrading (e.g., ORD-ATL comes to mind at 606 miles = 2 x 500 for a 1.5-hour flight, possibly in an ex-plus RJ).

Regardless, the point is that when a top tier on CO is reporting a 33% upgrade rate (and I have a feeling I'm not alone -- a lot of Plats live in SFO, LAX and EWR with likely similar results), all while one of the most heavily touted aspects of the Elite program is "free, unlimited upgrades," the bottom line is the airline is not able to reliably deliver on that, with respect to the competition. Anecdotal evidence from NW, DL, AA, and UA top tiers all report better upgrade stats.

Now if you're an OKC-based CO flyer, flying OKC-IAH-MSY getting close to 100%, good for you, the program works for you. If you live in a more populated area and/or fly to or from very heavy business destinations, it may not.

Let's face it. If you live in SFO or LAX, CO may not be the best choice for your primary carrier, unless you are mostly flying to a CO hub all the time. For SFO travellers, UA is likely the most logical airline to fly for all around travel.

Now once CO joins *A, then CO will be an option - but likely mostly for travel to CO hubs or when the CO ticket is cheapest.

Not exactly. It is 2 per quarter where you fly at least 10k (8 per year).

As a nearly 100% domestic 1K, I have long thought CO's system would work better for my travel in some ways, but I don't mind sitting in E+ on some flights and UA's network gives me more options to get home early after a job is done. Just a fact of life since SFO and SJC are more heavily served by UA. I also don't use all of my upgrades on myself. I enjoy being able to confirm friends or family into F at the time of booking with CR1's or SWU's from time to time. @:-)

I really doubt we'll see complimentary upgrades between the two carriers. I'd be happy enough earning EQM's and using 15k miles to upgrade on CO when I wanted. That and inter-lounge access. Clearly you guys have the better clubs :)

Several things trouble me about the UA CO codesharing and move to *A

Most all *A members only offer MAX of 100% EQM's even in F or Biz, all ST members offer 150% EQM's for Biz and even full fare Y.

UA considers an upgrade as a move to E+ so if the is UG Repro will CO PE's be fighting UA 1K for F seats, while CO PE's settle for E+ on UA?

UA RC lounge doesn't offer half what PC, WC or CRC lounges offer wifi, drinks and more substantial breakfast items for example.

EQM's on UA are never less than 100%.

If CO does require 1K, I'll reconsider again moving back to DL.

There are lot of issues with this change, and I think it's a pity that CO hasn't really communicated much about their plans. Though it does seem with the bill introduced by James Oberstar indicates the move won't be a slam-dunk, and CO is just nervous to communicate anything before the plan is approved by the Feds.

Which Bill did he introduce?

CO needs to negotiate all these items with UA after they exit SkyTeam. CO does not plan to change its PC, upgrades, etc. Whatever reciprocity CO and UA will undertake has not been negotiated, so CO does not really know at this point. Plus if they have ideas, they can not talk about it yet.

A number of airlines have dropped int'l F for a reason. If your client base or likely base can't support it, why waste the effort and money? All you'll do is encourage the constant "cost cutting" which can erode all of your products, and thereby erode your profitable business segment. Given the general US market, I think F is difficult to build a niche on. Be like NZ where you have a very solid and desirable business product that you can actually sell rather than merely upgrade.

http://transportation.house.gov/News...spx?NewsID=815

Airline anti-trust bill.

I agree, I don't think FC is necessary at all, just a good Biz product, good food, IFE, nice seats that ideally lie flat. Virgin Atlantic, NZ are great examples. Unforunantly, there are some bad ones too, Aeroflot, AZ, DL, and yes CO come to mind. Personally, CO's current BF offering is just too inconsistant, a different seat on every aircraft type but it's pretty hard to beat CO's meal service, even AF doesn't quite get there.

Where are you coming up with this?? :confused: Are you saying that UA only credits 100% for F fares on other carriers? I know for a fact that BD credits partner F fares at 300% (even on a Q-Up :D), so clearly there are CoS bonuses available in *A and I would expect that to continue as CO moves over.

UA does offer free WiFi for RCC members in almost all locations. Not as much as CO or NW but comparable to what DL offers. Certainly the drinks are better in that they are free.

Has there been any discussion of how the differences in the PC and RCC will be mitigated?

Comp'ed beverages is a fairly sizable gap between the two clubs, and given a choice, I know which one I would choose!