United is not, at least in multiple experience I've had, charging at the gate upsells for those E+ seats. I have no status on UA and I've either been able to select those seats during OLCI, or asked at the gate by the agent.


These are aggregate numbers, so it's hard to get anything meaningful from them. If I'm not mistaken, long haul international flights have on average much higher load factors. Regardless you have to look at the entire scenario in the big picture. If over the summer period and you end up upgrading econ pax into those E+ seats that you haven't sold, you lose. Every time you go out with full plane and spill demand without passing the revenue loss into the ticket prices of those that are actually flying you lose. It can be an escalating downward revenue spiral.

But, across the Atlantic, BF is effectively priced at E+ levels. They have year-round sales at around $2000, and the current offers start at $900+ (EWR-DUB return), as long as you are willing to surrender a bit of flexibility.
Don't expect to pay less than that for BA WT+. Aside from matching the odd fare sale, you're unlikely to see any European airline selling business class seats across the pond for less than €2200. Normally it's more like €3000.

CO is the SWA of the Legacies
 

CO makes it their business to know what the customer wants. If you dont think that they do then look at the the many canges that they have done as a result of the do and other comments we have given them over the years.

CO I think to a degree has a model similiar to SWA in that it does a lot of the work inhouse or through companies it owns or works with closely. It all comes down to the dollar that we want to spend which isnt that much as we would not be on Flyertalk. Yes, CO is not risk takers to the highest degree, but you have to remember all the risks that they have taken to get to this point with the airline. Just think is Bethune and Larry hadnt come to CO and worked so hard to turn it around. We could very well be talking about how the SWA hub at IAH doesnt offer the flights that we want. In the end i think they provide a quality product that we all enjoy (it is just that we dont get to enjoy it - domestic first - as much as we would like

Don't know when you flew UA last, but they have gotten very strict as of a year or so ago. They sure are charging for those seats ifyou are non-UA elite. The only way a non-UA elite will get them for free is if E- is oversold. OLCI won't do it any more, and gate agents are not supposed to do it. And the FAs are trained to send self-upgraders back to E-.

I guess it doesn't matter what you call standard rewards, because you'll never find one on any route people would like to fly.

The downward spiral continues.

That's not true at all. I need to travel this weekend and found not one, not two, but three tickets at the standard price for the flights I wanted. Not only that, but since the flights are less than 1500 miles round trip they're only 20k miles each. Finally, although I'm a Platinum there is standard "G" availability so I'm using my daughter's miles.

I don't know about your experience, but I rarely/never see CO priced at much less than $3000, though I know that they tend to charge more for ex-EU itineraries, and we never see the BF sales. Indeed, they always seem to be among the more expensive options. As for EU airlines, BA routinely charges just over $2000 for J if you are departing from outside the UK. And that isn't taking corporate discounts into account, where my understanding is that the EU airlines (BA, in particular) are very aggressive.

Agreed. E+ would simply be a fourth product. Where is it written in stone that three products is acceptable in terms of operational simplicity but four are too complex? Especially if that fourth product can be effectively targeted on the ultra long-haul routes (777 & 787's only) in order to meet demand and make a profit for CAL.

Also, in terms of the numbers of products CO offers, you left out one more variation a la Hawaiian BF, this one the "International First Class" which is offered to the Caribbean and northern Latin America which features BF service but on domestic FC-equipped ships.

So the fact is CO tailors its product to its various markets.

An E+ on ultra long-haul and even TATL would effectively meet the demand in that market place the same way that having BF service but on a B73NG is appropriate for northern Latin America.

I guess one good thing is that there won't be any changes to the redemption amounts of mileage BusinessFirst upgrades.

Standard rewards are very difficult to obtain in advance in many travel markets. Last minute availability is nice, but many folks using miles do so planning months in advance. The fact that CO makes makes a large percenatge of its standard awards available in the final days before a flight doesn't help those who book early. Furthermore, standard rewards in TPAC/TATL J are exceptionally difficult to obtain in advance.

The fact that CO is apparently not changing the standard reward redemption mileage for Asia/S.America J awards is, frankly, an implicit reflection that these rewards are all but impossible to book.

I would think that a E+ product would be more than extra pitch. Most airlines offering E+ have slightly wider seats, more pitch, and improved meal service. CO could do the same on its 777's/787's: 2-4-2 (versus 3-3-3) with 36-37 in. pitch and, say, a Y meal on BF china. Most airlines offer E+ pax a distinct menu, separate check-in, and amenity kits, too, but if CO wanted to keep it very simple they could do what I suggested above and accomplish 80-90% of the E+ objective.

You are right that all CO sales seem to be done ex-EWR, and not a lot from Europe.
However, if you 'd like to go to EWR between "18DEC07 THROUGH 01JAN08 ON THE OUTBOUND TRANSATLANTIC SECTOR" and are prepared to depart from MXP, you may be in for a surprise. ;)

IME, BA prices start at around €2000. The current CO sale fares are around the €1000 mark! And obviously transiting through LHR is something you don't want to do- there are reasons why BA and AZ, outside of their hubs, usually are the cheapest European long-haul carriers.

That's a fair point, but corporate contracts often are with the country's "home" airline, so it's a good % down but from a higher fare.

But you're ignoring the fact that this are still only three different types of seating offered, regardless of what they call it or the service that's provided on board. It is still fundamentally the same product offering.

I don't think E+ with just extra leg room can cut it. I think they have to offer a product differentiation on par with BA, NZ, VS etc. Having said that I don't think CO is going to offer an E+ product unless it can be operationally justified on all long haul aircraft. It is not in CO's best interest to set an expectation that they have econ plus on TATL flights, except for every market that has a 757 on it. That would a customer service nightmare particularly if you're charging a premium for the product. And since I don't think the 757 can handle E+ seating, and given that it is a significant portion of their long haul fleet, I don't see it happening in the near term.

That being said it may happen one day in the future, when the 757 is not plying the Atlantic.

In regards to UA not charging for E+, I took a flight several weeks ago and that was exactly my experience., they didn't charge. This was also true on several flights prior to that all within this year.

"...JUST the extra leg room." If you were 6'3, you'd never say "just"... but you're right about everything else...

Wt plus can be had for 600 dollars during low season.

This side of the atlantic, this is what the WT- price usually hovers around! :td:

There's speculation that when CO unveils the new BF product with the 787 roll out that the 757's will not have the new BF seat. Thus, the 757's might offer a different hard product irrespective of all this E+ conjecture.

First, I don't see any reason not to include E+ on the 757. Why not? After all, there are plenty of 757's configured for E+ on various carriers. So what if its 3-3 and the section is small (small means removing fewer E- seats and thus less agita for LK and the gang).

Second, regarding your comment about any E+ on CO standing out from the competition, that's precisely what we've been discussing since this thread took on the issue of E+.

As I have written a few times before, I believe that CO's introduction of E+ should be as revolutionary regarding premium economy as the launch of BF was for international J.

CO should redefine the category as a catalyst to having E+ be a major money maker.

Every time I have flown UA on E+ (I have no status on UA) they have charged me. But CO's E+ would not be like UA's E+, it would be a highly differentiated product with more legroom, more comfortable seats (but otherwise configured in the row patterns as E- [3-3-3 on the triple 7's], all the technological bells & whistles such as full internet access, int'l powerports, etc.

There would every reason for customers to pay a hefty premium for CO's E+.

But why should any CEO want to make money if it adds a little slight extra complexity to the business model?

Then again, the actual hard information regarding the new BF seat has been very thin indeed. Something new is coming with the 787 but there has been precious little other detail of any kind.

Not to be pedantic about it, but that's not precisely accurate either.

Regarding BF, the three kinds of aircraft that are configured with this arrangement all have significantly different seats, with different widths and different recline angle.

In domestic FC, there are at least two different configurations and a number of different seat widths.

In CO economy, the 753's and the the 767 variants have 32" seat pitch while the other ships have the dreaded 31" pitch. Finally, there is also a variety of seat widths in this category depending on the a/c model.

Then, of course, there are the RJ's and the turboprops, where there is still more variation.

I realize that CO sells these products as categories, regardless of the differences, but the fact it they are there.

The only reason CO ought to consider E+ is as a serious money maker which is could absolutely be on its ultra long-haul routes, where most if not all of its competition offers standard economy seat pitch of 32 to 34 inches or a premium economy product or both.

CO and E+. Not going to happen in the near future. I think that if we were to see it, we'd hear about a lot of people wanting an upgrade into it or wanting free access for <insert your status here> elites. For it to be 'meaningful', it would have to be expensive...and hence forget upgrading. If think it the market were really there, the product would be there because CO loves money (and they should) :)

I'm not sure your analogy holds in all cases. There is definitely a market for true international F service to certain destinations out of New York (especially HKG, PEK, PVG, NRT, DEL, BOM, TLV & LON). Does CO offer an international F product? No.

There is definitely demand for more domestic F seats on Transcons out of EWR (especially to SFO and LAX). As frequent anecdotal evidence on this forum shows, CO Transcons are often sold out in F days if not weeks in advance on certain transcon flights. This has been the situation for years. Not until 739ERs come online next year will CO have taken any significant steps to meet the added demand.

There been quite a bit of back and forth about whether or not CO will offer an E+ section. My opinion is they won't, the reason is that Larry and the other powers that be don't think their E-cabin (thanks TWA FAN 1 for that one), is out of date or needs any improvement, so why offer a E+ that they will just have to upgrade elites to if they can't sell all of the seats for an additional premium.

Back to the 2008 One Pass changes. Scott said that this was the bad news, do you guys think this is it for the bad news or is there more to come? If this is all of the bad news, other than the priority standby and million mile recognition, what other positive changes do you expect to be announced for 08?

Now if they would just run these ex-CPH. And for sometime when I won't be traveling to SE Asia (with CO miles, in J, no less!)

My guess is that we have not seen the end of the increases in redemption rates. In particular, I would think that things like the lower levels for KL J will be gone, and that we will see the BF rates become the de facto for all/most J tickets. Maybe they will even call it an "enhancement" as it will clear up a lot confusion with the reward charts. Of course, this is idle speculation, but you asked for it.

As for benefits? My guess is that we could see some increased availability with the change in their mileage valuation, but I'm honestly not holding my breath - as tight as award availability is, I don't think a 5% increase in their internal valuation is going to suddenly unleash a torrent of free seats. But my guess is that their biggest enhancements will be things like priority standby for elites and award availability showing up for AF, which I would categorize as "system improvements." They will be nice to haves, but I don't think we will see anything that will dramatically change the value proposition of OnePass in a significantly positive way.

I don't think 2008 is going to be a year where you will see many changes at all to the program. The big changes of a few years ago (50% EQM, etc.) are still in place and CO seems to be happy with them.

Renard & Anglo: Of course CO loves money. But doesn't any business?

As Anglo points out there are many market segments CO has chosen not to fill, as in Anglo's international F example. There are other markets CO has chosen to underserve, such as domestic F.

E+ is simply another market segment they have decided not to fill. It's just that simple. Just as with the lack of international F or the undersupply of domestic FC, it is not clear if they are making or losing money by abandoning this demand.

All that is clear is that they are not filling demand.

Andy: That usage has been out there for some time, and I cannot take the credit for it.

I do not expect any more bad news - near term. And I believe the positive news may offset the bad news. Most of the bad news is on EasyPass - which most of us here do not use.

CO did say at the DO that it was looking at simplifying its reward charts. That might cause a few adjustments - but likely no significant changes.

What positive news? Sorting standby lists by Elite status? Offering a Million Miler program? These are all things that other airlines have been offering, for well over 10 years.

I wouldn't exactly call these positive changes. I'd call them "it's about d&mn time" changes.

Agreed.

Call them what you will,but they're coming :p

Yes - CO is merely playing catch-up with regard to those improvements.

STOP OVER rewards are here!
 

Was reading the email from CO about changes to Onepass and noticed that stopover rewards are part of the improvements. Don't recall that being mentioned before.

http://www.continental.com/web/en-US...tion=OFOP-INTL

Actually the stop over awards have been there for some time. I just read what it says on Continental.com and I'm pretty sure that's always been the case -- that you could stop once along the routing between your origin and destination. Maybe it's new that you can use them for domestic itineraries, but I'm pretty sure it was always an option, at least for international reward tickets.

A stopover reward apparently is just a 3 legged journey in the US (at standard levels).
I used to think you used them in combination wtih a normal award. but most other rewards allow a stopover if they're NA-> non-NA.

They've had stopover awards as far back as I can remember at 35,000 miles - but of course you could only get it if all segments had standard availability - I don't think there was an EasyPass option. It's come in handy a time or two, especially since a (domestic) stopover is not an option with United awards. (or at least, not back when I needed one last). As Entropy mentioned, most all international awards include a free stopover.

In todays WSJ can anyone Confirm this??
 

Sorry everyone I was away and did not see Scotts Thread, till those below posted the Link, Didnt see it as it got buried past Page 1, too bad its not a Sticky

Ya must have missed Scott's announcement :)
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showp...12&postcount=1

Your #1 is correct. Your #2 is incorrect. The changes announced so far can be seen here. I'll be merging this thread with that one.

Xyzzy
CO forum moderator