Children in the PC
 

I am sitting in the EWR P Club on a conf call. Suddenly I hear a lady yelling for her husband saying something like "Come quick, I have a big problem, there is CACA all over" then the sound of kids screaming.

I started LOL on my call, but my clients didn't think it was very funny. I'm glad I don't have any kids.

They're apparently closing one of the restrooms now.

It's not the kids that are the problem, it's the parents.

Agree. Also, I don't understand why so many adults expect kids to act like adults when they are only kids.

I expect kids to act like I did when I was a child. I was certainly an inquisitive little one who liked to explore and have fun, but there was no way in heck that I was going to get away with demonstrative behavior in public.

It is an airport or a plane, not a freakin' playground!

In my recent experience, it seems that the children I've been encountering are better behaved, on average, then they were in the past. I've been on the road every week since Thanksgiving and have seen children in intnernational J, domestic F, PClubs, VS Clubhouses, CRCs, randomly in elevators at hotels and airports, etc., and none of them have been bratty or lound apart from the occassional quick post-departure noises. At BOS last week, a toddler actually held the door of an elevator for me as I was running to make a connection.

Now that I've said this, I'm sure this week's trip will find me seated in F next to a screaming lap child. ;)

At the risk of stating the obvious, bring ear plugs! Works well for a screaming baby. Works well for a screaming Mrs RNE too. :)

Poor guy
 

In my opinion the OP is the poorest person on earth. Not only does he not have kids, he is glad about it. One day he will be sorry about it. I hope for him that it is not too late.

I also don’t believe for one minute that his clients were really upset about it.
So there was some noise and you explained that you are in a PC and there are children there. What is there to be upset about?

Same scenario could happen with an elderly parent. I assume you at least had a parent...

Yup! The OP stated that he was having a conference call.

You must be kidding. So, people without children are inferior to those with children?

Puh-leeze.

Welcome to FlyerTalk, flyer111!

With that said, just who do you think you are? Assuming you know the OP's mind better than the OP is beyond presumptious -- it is arrogant in the extreme. If you think having kids is a wonderful thing, then I hope you have them and you're very happy. I don't have kids -- my wife and I are happily childfree and will remain that way 'til we die. My wife and I enjoy our lives, enjoy each other, and particularly enjoy the travel, restaurants and shows we can go to because we are not constrained in any way. And my wife and I don't particularly enjoy children, or things related to children.

Do what you want with your life, but have the courtesy and consideration to allow others to do with their lives as they will. Your judgmental conclusions are insulting and ill-informed -- keep them to yourself.

Did I say, "welcome to FlyerTalk"?

So the OP is a liar, as well as a pitiable childless person? Maybe, when you have 1,700 posts like the OP, you'll be in a position to assess the credibility of others.

What selfish, unproductive members of society you and your wife are! ;)

Yup -- that's us. ;)

this past week in a worldclub in detroit i'm sitting in the little workspace area on a pretty important conference call and this kid comes walking through yelling "DAD? DAD? WHERE ARE YOU?" which, ok, kid is lost - shouldnt have been left alone, but whatever, hes gotta find his dad - then the dad starts yelling "JIMMY IM OVER HERE! NEXT TO THE FAX MACHINE! DO YOU SEE MY HAND?"

of course this was after the sales rep from botox sitting in the cubicle next to me finished (in a very loud voice) teaching some doctor how to screw medicare out of money by charging for half used vials of botox and then using them on the next client but charging again blah blah blah sure you can use botox there, there's lots of medically supporting documentation to say so -

Medicare pays for Botox??????? :confused:

This just highlights what the PC has become. It used to be an Executive Lounge for business travelers to work and conduct business - with access to fax, internet, copier, etc - hence the conference rooms and work cubicals. The liquor used to be self serve. Hence the name President's Club.

Now the PC has become a revenue lounge with bar, TV rooms, family rooms, etc. Not the quiet reserved place it used to be. Maybe the family areas need to be enlarged. I would suggest that admission be restricted to those over 18, but I do not want to be anti-family. Maybe the solution is to have restricted - adult only areas like the business areas.

If a client is that upset about the whole problem, he can go to Hell. Sometimes people just need to go with the flow.

As for the kid thing, I am still young, but I look forward (not anytime too soon) to having kid. I think it is the most rewarding experience.

As for traveling with 'junior' just keep an eye on him, bring coloring books or quite games to keep him busy. You need to plan for everything.

I know, I should just go kill myself now. There's really nothing to live for without kids. :rolleyes:

The clients, and my boss, were just a bit upset because someone yelled "CACA" really loud and I started to laugh while talking about our presentation. Maybe it wouldn't have been so funny to me if they used the word "poop" or "fecal matter". Or even better, be a bit more discreet about the whole matter.

I found it very funny at the time that someone would loudly talk about "CACA" everywhere and they would yell about it in an area full of people on business calls (I'm assuming) on a Monday morning. I haven't even heard the word "CACA" since maybe grade school.

That is just the problem - too many people do not plan ahead and/or don't stop to think that their child's loud behavior might be obtrusive to others around them. I can not tell you how many times that I have seen parents basically ignore their kids as they ran around the PC or kicking the back of the seat in front of them. A screaming infant is one thing, out of control kids is completely another and it reflects poorly on the parents. This issue is problematic everywhere in public, not just in airports or planes. My favorite story is from a good friend - he was on a flight from the west coast and the child behind him thought it was a fun game to kick my friend's seat and pull his hair when he tried to ignore him and sleep. The mom's response when asked to control her monster? He's a kid, deal with it. Luckily a FA happened to be close and was kind enough to step in and suggest that the woman change seats.

I always compliment parents of children who act well during flights and even help out whenever I can, espescially when it is just one parent.

I admit that I would have laughed as well, which can tend to reflect poorly on a business call. Perhaps they should have used "dropped a deuce" or "poopy".

:D

aparantly they do -
http://www.rideforlife.com/news/als_...e_victims.html

All right, that's OK then. Although you should have gotten the name of pharmaceutical rep and reported them to the FDA or whoever polices them... are they policed? :confused:

You talk as if these was reserved for kids. In fact when a child is loud, cries, or otherwise makes a scene there are usually some quick fixes food, engage in a discussion or play, or nap time.

What gets me is the adults who act like kids, can't be supervised by anyone, have a sense of entiltlement that greatly exceeds anything do them or others.

Can we keep them from spoiling my PC experience?

I always let people know I am in a public place when making the kinds of call the OP mentioned. Basically making them aware I am out here in the jungle so a heads up anything can happen!

Isnt that such the truth. I am just tired of the a'holes who think they are the center of the universe and everyone else revolves around them.

A toddler ("one who toddles") is usually someone just learning to walk and between the ages of one and two. Hard to believe that such a person is controlling the operation of an elevator door.

Only hard to believe it was done intentionally. An elevator door could be quite the toy( although not a safe one).

Thanks for the welcome. I will assume you really mean it.

I am doing exactly what you are suggesting, living my life and not interfering with others.
You and the OP on the other hand, are not doing it. You are suggesting how I take care of my children.

As for "being free". I have 5 kids so far, and I am freer than you are. You will understand one day. I repeat what I said in the other post, I hope for your wife and you that when the day comes it will not be too late.

If I had to choose between sitting in a PC, flying in first, and staying at the best suite in the best hotel, or sitting at the gate, flying in coach, and staying at Motel 6, I would take the option that has my kids with me over the option of having people like you with me.

And to reply to someone else: Yes, I do believe people with children are better than people without them.

If a client of mine would be upset about hearing me laugh about something a child did, I would look for a different profession.
This is my last post in this thread.

I never suggested that you should take care of your children a certain way. I don't even know you!

I never said that I think children should be banned from the club or any action at all. I was simply relaying something that happened to me. I think it was you taking things too personally. How do you deal with childless people out in the real word? Do they just drive you into a rage?

I know you're not talking about me, but that's very presumptuous for you to know what's best for people you have not ever met. Should I convert to your religion too? HAHA

I'm still glad I don't have kids and am very glad I don't have preachy parents. Your rants reminds me of this person: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCODIhAXbQM Hilarious that you're taking this so seriously.

HAHA...That's crazy.

Good.

I don't recall telling you how to take care of your children. Are you confusing me with someone else, or do you think all childfree people speak with the same voice?

I also don't recall the OP telling you how to take care of your children. Or were you the one in the PC Club screaming about caca?

I'm glad you think so. I'm not interested in playing dueling lifestyles. I don't care how you live. And how I live is none of your business unless my choices impact you in some way. They don't, so keep your judgmental criticism to yourself.

I'm over 50 -- hasn't happened yet, nor will it. Hasn't happened to my childfree friends in their 70s, nor will it. Considering you know absolutely nothing about me, your prediction is not particularly compelling.

That's good. I would take the option that involves not being near your kids. Works out quite well, doesn't it?

You've made that abundantly clear. I'm curious. Do you usually go into places you've never been and insult the people who are already there? Just curious, but it doesn't seem like a very good way to make friends. [edited to avoid an FT TOS violation -- but I really, really wanted to write it.]

Promise?

Wow. Botox, baby crap and the childed vs. the childfree! This thread is more interesting than the last few dinner parties I attended!

FWIW and waaaaay OT:

Botox is used for more than just wrinkles and cosmetic purposes. It is used for such diverse neuromuscular disorders as cervical (as in the neck) dystonia, different types of spasticity and for peripheral neuromuscular and pain disorders. It has to be injected in more than a few sites, so there is appropriate reimbursement and coding for it for Medicare. When I was in clinical practice, we had a few patients who were on it for an ophthalmic disorder called strabismus, and also for hemifacial ticks/spasms and palmar and axillary hyperhidrosis.

As for the kids vs. no kids, if you don't want children, don't have 'em. I have three sons, but kids aren't for everyone and no one should feel forced into having them. It is arrogant and stupid to believe that everyone wants or must have them. Parenting is no walk in the park, and all of the bullcrap about Kodak moments are just that--bullcrap. I have a number of friends and family who are childfree, and I would never dream of badgering them about their choice. Why would someone elses 'nads be anybody's business but theirs?

Flyer111--welcome to the board but please get off the cross. Someone needs the wood. Having children does not automatically confer wisdom, experience, insight or ability upon the parents. It just makes them parents and gives them responsibility for making sure they grow up as productive, law-abiding citizens. Unfortunately, the law-abiding and productive seems to be secondary these days to so many irresponsible "parents".

Ear plugs wouldn't have worked in that case, but in general they are a godsend. That said, why would anyone want to be in a PC, screaming baby or not? I mean, why not sit in the airport chapel. It's just as boring, but free.

Cova I've read and respected your posts many times but I must disagree with you on having the club room over 18. I too am a lifetime member and when travelling overseas the club room's are a life saver for myself when I travel. Add to it, it's even more important when I have my wife and kids with me. I see a lot more problems with adults wandering around the club room pacing all over screaming into their cell phones so that no matter where you sit you get to hear the entire conversation then with kids in the club room and other behavior by adults then by kids. And I don't think you are anti-family, I think you are pro-PClub room etiquette or you are just pro-common sense.

There's a lot of improvements that could be done to the club rooms (but it starts at basic etiquette) but making them over 18 only is not what I would suggest to solve the problems and I don't think you believe that would solve the problems either. I dunno I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I fully agree that there are etiquette changes that need to be made inside the club room's, but also and more importantly enforcement of the rules and etiquette by the current staff. Rarely have I seen a staff member take up issues with a member like asking them to lower their voice or such. I'd love to see them actually have and enforce some common sense etiquette rules inside the club rooms.

Hard to believe you'd bother writing that response. :rolleyes:

Ok, maybe the kid was five or six. It doesn't take a ten-year old to push the "door open" button on an elevator.

It was done intentionally. The parents were praising the child for being so polite and holding the "door open" button while I was running to the elevator.

Why is it so hard to believe that a young child would know how to hold an elevator door open???

deleted

OK, as a father of 4, I just have to weigh in...
 

I've been quiet on these boards for a while now, but I just have to weigh in on this. I guess it struck a nerve with me. As someone who flies between IAH - CDG roundtrip once or twice per month for my law practice based in both those cities, I've seen it all in the PC's at this point, and I'd offer only these humble observations.

First, as a father of four sons aged 2, 4, 6, and 8, all these TATL trips can be *quite* the production with the entire family in tow, as you might imagine. Second, we all use the PC clubs regularly, and I am thankful to have them. Third, for those who are wondering, I expect the same (high) standard of behavior from my children at home and in public because having two standards is (1) confusing for the kids, and (2) hard on the parents!

Because I found the subsequent postings in this thread more interesting than the OP entry, I'd like to address those first. The most salient of them include:

KosraeTV: "I see a lot more adults wandering around the club room pacing all over, screaming into their cell phone..."

Yes! I agree completely! The fact is, there are far more adults who behave like children in the President's Club than there are actual children who are misbehaving!

Consider only these vignettes from this past Friday at the "Flagship" PC in the new terminal at IAH. While laying over after arriving from CDG (with my older 3 sons, mais sans Ms. LawFlyer) awaiting our flight up to DFW, there were an embarassing number of men acting like complete boors. Some were drunk, some were screaming orders into the cellphones to their "colleagues" back at the office, some were recounting mindless detail of their upgrade or nonupgrade experiences in extremely disruptive tones of voice -- and I remember thinking to myself, "My sons are actually better behaved than many of these adults." In fact, my son Jean-Marc asked me, "Daddy, why is that man yelling 'cuss' words so loud? I thought those were really bad words. He must be very mean." Well, my friends, out of the mouth of babes. . .:eek:

Given that the above description is actually typical of my experiences in a PC recently, I have wondered whether it is a suitable environment for my children not because they are misbehaving and disturbing the peace (which they aren't, and they know better!), but rather because I don't think that seeing drunken adults and hearing abusive language is appropriate for them. And this brings up a post by Cova.

Cova: "It used to be an Executive Lounge for business travelers to work and conduct business. . .[but now the PC is] not the quiet and reserved place it used to be."

I understand Cova's sentiment (and I often agree with much of his posting), but I disagree here. I have been flying CO for a LONG time now, using the PC clubs (in their past incarnations) since I was a kid flying around with my parents. I don't ever recall the PC's being all that quiet or reserved, and I never thought of it as "just" for businessmen. To the contrary, I've always viewed it as a club, a lounge, a place reserved away from the general chaos of the open terminal. And with four young sons (and three of them who make the TATL crossing regularly), I find it a haven of rest, assuming there are no drunken cell-talkers blathering away.

In fact, I find that my older three sons (4, 6, 8) tend to be better behaved in a more reasonable environment, such as the PC, than in the chaotic terminal. Even though I've described how Saturday's visit to the club included misbehaving adults, it is still *usually* preferable to the general hullaballoo of the open terminal. As most parents will agree, I find that when I can give my undivided attention to my children, tend to their small needs of a snack, some juice, a book, a game. . .and most of all, some hugs, lap-sitting, small-talk, giggle-making, and general Daddy-time, they are far more relaxed and well-behaved than in the noisy, crowded, HUGE, boisterous open terminal. They are children, after all, and they like their defined spaces, as it makes them feel more in control and at-ease.

To that end, in the PC's, they are able to speak to me and ask me questions without shouting, which keeps them calmer. They can hear my response and catch my eye more quickly, which helps keep them more at-ease. ALL of these things eventually translate into better-behaved children at the airport and in the PC's. This way, the PC becomes a tool to actually help my fellow travelers in keeping my family quiet, calm, and unintrusive.

This leads to something MBM3 said. He tells the story of the kid on the plane who kicked the seat-back in front of him incessantly, much to the annoyance of the passenger in that seat. The parent of that child should have controlled such a thing ASAP, with a sincere apology to the front passenger. Even if the parent had to physically grab the kid's legs and physically PREVENT him from kicking, then so be it!! This is inexcusable on the parent's part -- and the fault lies in the parenting, not with the kid who obviously had not had the proper boundaries set.

But MBM3 has also told of helping other passengers with kids where possible. This is SO helpful, though many of you may correctly note that it is certainly not "required." And yet, I find it impossible to believe that ANYONE can go through life and NEVER need someone's help -- maybe even a stranger's help -- in a sudden or difficult situation. After all, we are on public transport. It is not an exclusive social club, or a country club, or anything else. And just as adults must get from point A to point B, so must our children. So even if an adult does not "like" children, that's fine -- but those of us that ARE rearing children should no be looked down upon merely because our kids occasionally behave like, well. . . like kids.

Consider: When one of my older boys was only 18 months old, he and I were on the overnight IAH - CDG alone, in Y. He was in his car-seat/carrier thing, which buckled into his own Y seat. This was in the middle row of 3 on a 777, and he and I had D and E. Another woman was in F. In the middle of the night, after the baby was sound asleep and covered up warmly, I had to pee like a racehorse. The woman on the other side of the baby was wide awake and reading, so I asked her politely if she would just keep an eye on the sleeping baby while I ran to the lavatory -- that I would return in just 2 minutes, tops. (After all, unbuckling the baby, waking him up, and doing all of THAT would have been much more disturbing to her and everyone else!!) She said, "Sure."

As fate would have it, when I returned, I found that the baby had woken up and PROJECTILE VOMITED ALL OVER THIS LADY! I was horrified. But by the grace of God, the woman was SO nice about it. She said she leaned over to look at his little face, and suddenly -- SPLASH! -- she was covered with pureed veggie and milk! Oops. Turns out, he was getting sick, but had shown no signs of it until then.

Of course, I did my best to get the lady cleaned up, got an FA on the scene, changed the baby, and tried to do it all silently in the middle of the night at 35,000 feet. Now here's the strange thing:

Passengers in the row behind us started complaining to the FAs about "the sick and contagious" baby in the next row, and that they could smell the vomit (doubtful, actually), and demanded that we move. (Move where, precisely, I thought?) They even disturbed the nice lady (who got barfed on) and told her "You don't have to put up with that," and "You should file suit," and "You should demand xyz. . ."

And please understand, I had done my best to clean everything up with the FA's help, assist the nice lady, and keep the hubbub to a minimum. Now, I cite this story merely as an example of things that JUST HAPPEN with kids around, but there's nothing that either the parent OR the kid can do to prevent it. These things can, and will, happen on airplanes, in the terminal, and in the PC. These events are just part of being human and moving about in the glorious world that God has given us.

And, having said that, I don't think that parents are under any obligation to squirrel children away, keep them at home, or generally make them disappear for someone else's comfort. And with that privilege comes the reciprocal responsibility for me to ensure my kids are well-behaved, clean, reasonably quiet, and respectful of the travelers around them. I set the example, and guess what? They follow it -- just as one would expect.

As XYZZY pointed out, when this system fails, "It's not the kids that are the problem -- it's the parents." A-men.

I practice international litigation, so it is perhaps in my nature as an attorney to prefer order to chaos, to prefer the expected to the unexpected, and to prefer discipline to disorder. Add to this my great love for children, and perhaps you have a dichotomy! Nevertheless, something that Flyer111 posted struck me as absurd:

Flyer111: "Yes, I do believe people with children are better than people without them."

This is insanity, and I wonder whether Flyer111 actually meant what he posted. He says he has posted his last in this thread, so we may never know. But still -- how could those of us who are parents be "better people" than those of us who are NOT parents? It's a patently ridiculous statement, and I think people on this board are intelligent enough to know that such an overreaching piece of filth-smack deserves no serious response. I love my sons more than life itself, but I am certainly no "better" than ANYONE -- and neither is Flyer111.

Oh -- and MBM3 -- another thing you said make me laugh myself silly. When referring to a baby going poopy, I think you mentioned a eupemism of "dropping a deuce." That is hysterical. I'm going to use that soon! Of course, all 4 of mine are now potty-trained -- but just barely -- so it's going to get some use, I promise!

So, back to the original issue of the parents in the PC yelling "caca" or whatever. That is ridiculous, and it should not have been handled that way. I'm glad the OP was in good enough humor to laugh about it -- but as most posters have suggested, it's NOT funny, and it's frankly a bit gross. The OP was showing more maturity than anyone else in there by just passing it off with a laugh.

And yes, the parents shoudl ALWAYS, ALWAYS take the baby to the restroom to change the diaper, and NEVER, NEVER just do it right there in the middle of the PC (I think that came up once). Same goes for the aircraft: don't change it in the seat! Go to the lav, just like the rest of us do to dispose of our waste! That's disgusting!

But again, all this is the PARENTS' fault, not the poor baby who got changed out in the open. Likewise, it's not the baby's fault he pooped in the PC -- because babies will poop wherever and whenever they want! To the contrary, the parents are the ones who mishandled that, not the baby.

So my final word on all this (as if it matters :cool: ) is that banning children or families from the PC (or from BF cabins, etc.) is NOT the answer. It is NOT their fault, and I know from personal experience. If we are to "ban" anything, let's "ban" the unruly behavior of so-called adults who get plastered in public, curse loudly in front of strangers, yell about "caca" when a little baby has a bowel movement, and who forget to treat their children with love, kindness, and respect as gifts from God. Imposing THAT ban would solve the problem I've read bout in this thread, my friends.

So much for that, anyway.

Fly safe this holiday, everyone. God bless.

I generally agree with the above quote, although, as I just wrote in another thread, I think that people with children sometimes overestimate the "need" they have to travel with their children on vacation or to visit relatives. In any case, as someone without children, all I ask is that anyone who travels with children for whatever reason and in whatever class of service show some courtesy and make an effort to be well-behaved - that goes for both the parents and the children. As you (and others) have pointed out, adults are often far worse-behaved than children.

Well-articulated, as always, LF.

A note of apology to CO 1E
 

Forgive me for cross-posting this little comment, but I'm not sure which of these similar threads contained my error! So, by way of apology to CO 1E:

CO 1E, in re-reading my posts, I think I was not as totally forthcoming as I could be about one small issue, and you sort of addressed it in the other thread in the past several minutes.

There, you said something like (and I'm not quoting) perhaps parents could re-evaluate how much travel little children and infants really NEED to be doing. I think you are right.

In one of my posts, I told of a few reasons why even our infants have had to do the IAH - CDG slog several times, even in their first year of life. I should *not* have given you the impression that it was always a matter of life-and-death, or serious illness because, upon reflection, that's just not honest of me.

More specifically, I tend to characterize my 'desire' to have my family all together, and my sons' inherent 'need' to be with both parents as a coherent whole, as a true NEED, not a WANT. So -- I guess that's a thorny issue. Some would tell me, "If your famile NEEDS to be together all the time, then stop traveling." Well -- that's a nice suggestion, but it's not possible. Even if I quite my job and took a domestic litigation position, I would miss our family on one side or the other, and my children would, too.

So, the compromise we hit years ago before having children is: there will be lots of travel. And when the kids are truly infants (up to about 12 months), let's avoid it whenever possible. And we do! But sometimes, even when no one has died, or no one needs a blood transfusion, or Granny is not on her deathbed, I just want to put all four of my kids to bed everynight -- read their stories, do their bath and prayers, have dinner with them, and rock the youngest to sleep.

As silly as that sounds, I do tend to characterize it as a "need," and I should not have dismissed your point so quickly. Your definition of a "need" is actually more accurate than mine -- because mine is all clouded with "son-blindness" as I call it (topic for another post!).

I apologize for that. I think you have the better point to make.

LF

OK. I will break my promise because I was misunderstood.
Obviously, we parents are not "better" than non-parents. How do you even measure "better"?
My comment was only because I could not stand the arrogance of someone who had his company pay for his travel and complain that some kids made noise in the PC.
I agree with most of what you said, and I did not mean to be patronizing. I realize that some people are not parents out of choice. I pity them, but it is their business.

My company doesn't pay for my Amex platinum card, which gets me into the PC, nor does it pay for my RCC membership. Now explain to me what difference it makes when it comes to kids making noise in the PC. Have I "earned" the right to complain?

No, not patronizing at all.