Adding AVOD to BF on 757s only is not going to keep up with an airline like DL which is completely renovating their product (I suggest you check it out). That is a welcome change, but insufficient. The yield comparison is not fair, because the bulk of revenue comes from all the people sitting in Y. There might be a number of people who pay full J/D/Z, but their overall revenue contribution to the flight does not exceed the 180+ folks in the back.

Coach cabin comfort based on fabric or pitch? How about both. Let's not stop there, because the entire seat design is uncomfortable. Assuming CO is going to keep the pitch tight, those seats need a radical redesign to offer better personal space management and increased comfort.

Just because CO made minimal changes during past difficult times, does not mean they can play the role of the tortoise when times improve and allow competing carriers to leap ahead.

IFE on WN? That is not their product...nor is their ideal target market the same as COs. That is comparing apples to oranges. What about DLs plans to offer AVOD and/or Satellite TV (with AVOD movies/music) in almost all their seats essentially fleetwide? That is a decision CO should be looking at, not poo-pooing product enhancements because a WN is successful without them.

somewhat o/t:
 

Perhapes this is a question for a.net, but I'll ask it here.

If the runways are a bottleneck at EWR (a point which we seem to agree on), why not build another one/two?

(But J.Edward, there's no room!)

Okay, so there's no room on the western side of the turnpike, but why not consider putting in additional north/south runways on the eastern side of the turnpike. Other airports have built "offsite" (apologies as I am unsure as to the industry term) such as AMS's 18R 36L, why can't they build one/two plane bridges across the turnpike and add runway(s)? Is it land prices, current tenants do not want/have sufficient clout to block this, security issues, airspace issues or all of the above?

File Photo: GoogleMap's Image Of EWR

Announced reduction in f/a staffing. That's a big, obvious cut in service to the customer. Other cuts have already been made, like reduction in CSR staffing after implementation of "automated" system.



All three of these are investing in the future. LK likes to say he will spend $1.00 to earn $1.10. By what measure? Profit center accounting? What about fleet modernization by the competition? How about all the opportunity cost of letting the product go to pot just because revenue can't be identified in the profit center? Just today AA introduced its new Intl Biz service. Here's a link: http://www.howwillyourtimefly.com/



You may be watching it, but I dare say you're doing a lot of watching it go by. Your 757 AVOD is fine but is already an outdated technology and only being installed on a small percentage of the fleet. Regarding yield, I'll just say that you have to be careful not to make pronouncements like "customers don't care about IFE" and watch your J yield evaporate as customers abandon you in favor of your competition that is in the process of delivering a lot more value for $$$.

I'll agree you're operating in the toughest airline marketplace in history. But you know as well as I do that that any ground lost today is much harder to make up tomorrow. WN doesn't provide IFE but their product is still concentrated on the short-haul market. IFE on EWR-HKG makes a big difference.



Remember, it's not just about B6. There are plenty of other competitors out there ready to identify your huge yield on NYC-IAH and ready to play ball as well.



I'm not quibbling about the ups and downs inevitable in the business. You know as well as I do that not all of CO's int'l routes are a home run and that the competition coming from DL in NYC is an issue.

My only point is this: Why adopt the defensive stance when the best strategy is to add value.

Remember what Gordon said: "Anybody can cut costs, but it takes real b**ls to add value."

That should be your mantra :)



Slow erosion of quality and frequency of meal service, constant problems with IFE, reduced staff at the line level (therefore obvious to the customer), and fleet that is aging and being slowly passed by the competition. Not to mention flying constantly too full with turnarounds that are too tight leading to horrendous delays at your major hubs.

You're still OK now, but keep this up for another six months to a year and that wonderful reputation Gordon built up will be shot.

By American's MD-80s?
By Delta's 737-200s? MD-80s?
By Northwest's DC-9s? DC-10s? 747-200s?

Continental is taking delivery of 6 737s this year, and 48 more in the next two years. 2 new 777s coming online in spring, and 20 787s on order. 767s can't be more than about 6 years old. 757-300s under 5 years old.....

Everyone's fleet is getting older by a day.....every day.

From a guy named TWA Fan? That's a good one......... :D

CO has the youngest fleet of any legacy. But the age of the airframes was not what I was discussing. It's the idea of making most of your money from your premium product on a few routes. This is where the competition is spending pretty big money retrofitting (and a lot more than just adding AVOD's on 752's). It won't be long, unless something changes, that CO will have the fewest amenities in int'l J.

This has alreaddy been the case for some time on transcons, where the competition offers far more premium amenities.

Yes, TWA Fan 1 has been around for a while. But then again there is a difference between the age of the aircraft and the passenger, no?

I'm sorry, but you must be operating in another world...we have hired over 600 f/a's this year and since 9/11 their haven't been any reductions in the number of f/a's on-board. Please provide a reliable link/source for you information (date included).



Just maybe we are allowing the competition (who has been sloooooooow to match our J product) to announce changes and following their "investment"; we will come to the table with "all that and a bag of chips"!

Remember, DL, AA, UA, US are trying to emulate/beat us (God its nice to be the one they want to be).



Oh I see...how does F9's/B6's Dish System work on the Trans-Atlantic/Pacific routes? The system being installed on the 757 BF is going to be added to the entire y/c beginning next year. I seriously doubt that the J customer is solely basing his/her decision on the IFE (it does factor in, but studies show it isn't the only factor).

So if DL offers a better IFE, but a narrower seat (our 767 2-1-2 vs their 767 2-2-2) you'd base the decision on the IFE alone?


Maybe, but like all of life, we have to pick where to place our priorities and right now, it isn't where you or I might choose. I agree Larry is a bit of a tight-wad, but he is the captain and hopefully has the better picture of the waters.



Like? You really believe our management is kicking back and eating bon-bon's on the couch?



You are right, but DL is still a work in progress and I seriously doubt we will just sit idly by and not exceed or match their changes. I truly believe Larry and company are watching them and when the time is right, he will one up their product.

Because you all are not willing to pay for the "added" value (i.e. AA putting more seats back in Y/C).

I think we are still offering more flights with "free" meals than DL, AA (who is going to remove ovens in y/c), US, UA. I think you are wrong, but let us revisit that next summer.

Yes. I also see CO's foreign competitors with AVOD and WiFi on board already. Putting AVOD on the plane won't make it state-of-the-art. It will only bring CO up to an average state.

I recall a flight on CO a few months ago, when I was in coach, sitting next to an int'l CO FA flying back to her hometown. She was friendly, and we struck up a conversation. She was boasting about BF and how nice it is, and she was shocked to hear that, despite being CO Elite, I prefer to fly other carriers internationally because of their better service. Not until I described some of the amenities -- AVOD, high-speed Internet, U.S./Euro power port (no adapter), flatbeds, pajamas, mattress cushions, etc., did she understand. By the end of the flight, she was no longer a BF proponent, rather she was writing down carriers she wanted to try out using her flight benefits.

I think CO's biggest problem is the arrogance it's been instilling in some of its employees. The "rah rah" factor is great when you're a leader, but once you're no longer the best, thinking you are is very dangerous. BF was a great innovation. Business seats at that time were nowhere near as nice. Now BF is just average, barely.

UA is looking at Internet fleet-wide. AA just released new C flatbeds. AC is using the same style seat with mattress that VS and NZ are using in J.

What has CO innovated lately? The free BBQ sandwich in coach only takes you so far...

Don'tGoThere - I do not dispute that CO has cut back on FA's, GA's or other ground staff. However, may I offer a customer viewpoint: as I'm based in Houston I go in/out of IAH's E facility frequently and when I'm there I normally see 1-2 agents at the EliteAccess counter, 2-3 at the general area and perhaps one at a misc. station somewhere. So for these 5-6 uniformed CO reps that I see there are maybe 50 (+/- 10) eticket machines and if there's more than 3-4 customers who needs help or has an issue problems arise.

Granted there could be many more folks I’m just not seeing – or I could be hitting IAH on all the wrong days but the point is a part of me has developed this equation: CO @ IAH = understaffed = CO’s cutting back. Thanks to posters like you, I know this is incorrect - but other frequent travelers don’t have access to the information here and can jump to conclusions like this (or worse!) if there perceptions are not managed.

Another good example is the EWR check-area - where a poor passenger/staff leaves the wrong impression on the customer.

Again, the ground staff levels may be the same as they were 2/4/6/etc. years ago but due to CO’s strong growth, the poor GA’s TA’s seem overwhelmed and in need of reinforcements.

Long story short: while I applaud CO for not cutting back on staff ^, I do believe they need to realize they're growing :) and as such, make sure there are new guys and gals to man the newly created posts rather than just stringing out the existing employees.


If there's a new product in the pipeline I do look forward to seeing it :)! But, again from a customer standpoint I took my international travel to UA (minus a breif excursion over the north pole) due to the value they could offer me (in my case E+ and SWU's). FWIW, while I am price sensitive to an extent, the ability to get decent legroom in Y and a shot at an upgrade pulls me to UA -- even if they're not the cheapest. Granted I may be in the minority here, but here's a real life example of where I, a customer, look past price to what I'm actually getting.

Please don't take me for trying to knock CO - I'm not. I have enjoyed my time on the airline and often receive great service. You guys and gals (from the FA's to Management) have worked hard to make CO the innovator -- please keep up the good work and don't fall behind!

Bring this up at the next "do" and report back the answer Larry and company provide. Also, see my last comment to TWA Fan, I think Larry and company are waiting for those who since 9-11 have been reducing their overall product and only now are playing catch-up or exceeding our offering.


I'm sorry, but those flying J are paying a premium price and are less price sensitive than those in back.

Not disagreeing that seats need improvement, especially on the 757/735/733; but jesus, mary and joseph we need to be able to afford the modifications and quite frankly, a couple of quarter of profits isn't going to cut it.

Prudent fiscal/product management is necessary and the other carriers are still making cuts (AA is removing ovens to "lighten" a/c). DL's improvements are not earth shattering, nor would they be difficult to match. Our a/c interiors/exteriors are better than our nearest USA Network competitor.

Oh come on, just because we didn't announce we'd be jumping on-board doesn't mean we aren't "looking at" it. Let us see how fast they make those modifications with the instability of oil prices and world politics. Also, they need to show a profit or that those changes are profitable.

My comparison of WN has to do with B6 and F9....will you concede that they are same type of apple as WN? If their formula is so powerful, why isn't WN matching their lead?

Look, what do you expect me to do? I'm defending what I believe is still a good product. Does it need updating and a new edge, yes; but just like the computer you buy today, tomorrow it is old news because a bigger, better faster model is put out there for the offering.

It is a barely a win-win environment out there, but I still think we are offering a equal or better product than many US network carriers. Maybe if you write your Congress/Senate Representative they will allow us to be bought by AF/BA/AZ/VS and we can all look forward to flying under the European Environment.

Compared to other US carriers, CO still has an edge with BF compared to business class. However, compared to international carriers, they are not as good.

I think the most important issues wrt businessFirst are the inflight internet, 110 power, and flatter seats. CO has stated that they don't want connexion. They have expressed interest in ground based internet. that's fine for domestic, but it doesn't do jack for international. If they're serious about their international product, internet NEEDS to be part of the equation.

This is the case on two city pairs, JFK-LAX and JFK-SFO returns, which technically aren't even served by CO. Continental offers a very competitive product, especially in the front cabin, to more destinations from EWR than AA or UA offer. If I want to fly AA to SNA, I'm out of luck, because it involves a connection over either DFW or ORD, and segments on their miserable MD-80s. I'll ride a CO 737NG, their so-called "nonstop premium" far outweighing any premium amenities that AA could offer me in an eight-hour journey with a stop at one of their hubs.

JetBlue offers minimal premium amenities. Yes, their seats are leather, they have TV's, and those nifty little kits on redeyes, but they offer no meal service, no true premium product like a F cabin, and their frequent flyer program is pedestrian (at best) to garbage (at worst).

You say Continental's fleet is getting old. Sure, it's not as new as it was in 2002 or earlier, but tell me, amongst the legacy carriers, who is receiving ANY new aircraft?

WN is getting boatloads of 73G's, but they still have hordes of ratty 737-300s and -500s all over the place. Their counterparts at CO look immaculate by comparison.

B6 is receiving more airplanes they don't need...

DL? Nope. AA? Some 767s, yes, but only to replace ships acquired from the TWA buyout that were incompatible with their existing fleet. UA? Still parking airplanes. NW? Of course not!

Both of your arguments there are weak. However, I am in total agreement with your assertion that CO's Y product is inferior. Seat design and comfort have much room for improvement, and I don't see any reason why the latest 737 deliveries aren't coming with the same seating innovations found on the 757-324s, e.g. translating seat pans. Seat comfort on the 777, in particular, is unacceptable and absolutely needs to be addressed.

I don't call for the same (careless?) spending Delta has engaged in under the guise of Chapter 11 bankruptcy, but minor investment in a product which the bulk of your travelers choose is a wise decision. I trust management has a plan for this, and sustained profitability only speeds up the timetable for any and all improvements.

CAL's intl J is still just barely the best.

But it's about to get passed like it's standing still.

AA just announced its int'l J. AA's recamped J cabin makes CAL look downright antiquated.

DL is investing a lot in a J product; word on the street is that it will be both spacious and full of all the latest toys (AVOD, internet, etc.) and high-end meals.

NW's long-haul business class is already a terrific product, flatter seat, more privacy, more legroom, etc.

UA's business class is comparable in most ways to CAL.

CAL's BF is a terrific value, especially the discounted BF. But this market segment is about to get a heck of a lot more competitive and I think the airline's senior management needs to look a few months ahead into their crystal ball to realize that making money on this product is going to get a whole lot harder without a comprehensive fleet modernization program.

NW is accepting new A330s.

Yes, CO is *barely* the best, but it is still the best. NW A330 WBC is about the same. DL on a 777 is about the same but with better wine. I don't think DL will be better in the short term because unless they do 2-1-2 in the 767 it will still be much narrower.

Their food service also needs to be spruced up a bit. Its a bit tired these days...

I would love to see a premium transcon type product out there but I don't know where they would get the aircraft from.

I have a somewhat OT question - are the two new 777s going to be outfitted with the old, loop-style IFE or will they have the new AVOD? There is no excuse for them not to be fitted with AVOD at delivery.