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Bumped from first to coach
Last week I was bumped from first to coach because of an equipment change. I had purchased a full Y ticket and upgraded it at time of purchase with Plat status.
I can somehow accept that if such a fiasco occurs, those paying for a higher fare class are last in line for bumping. What I do not accept was CO insistence that no compensation was due since I flew the class paid for. As I tried to explain to the gate agent, the Y fare was significantly more than the nonrefundable fare. I purchased Y simply becasue I wanted the upgrade. As fare as I am concerned, Y is a form of discounted first. Therefore I should be refunded the difference between Y and the lowest fare on day of booking. I accept that this infromation may not be available to a gate agent, but that doesn't change the principle of the thing. CO needs a process to refund appropriately. After some back and forth, they gave me a Denied Boarding document and a $150 voucher. After reading the Denoied Board document, it appears that minimum compensation under that rule is $200. I intend to go after at least the additional $50 and press a case for the fare difference as described above. Comments? |
Originally Posted by brittex
Last week I was bumped from first to coach because of an equipment change. I had purchased a full Y ticket and upgraded it at time of purchase with Plat status.
I can somehow accept that if such a fiasco occurs, those paying for a higher fare class are last in line for bumping. What I do not accept was CO insistence that no compensation was due since I flew the class paid for. As I tried to explain to the gate agent, the Y fare was significantly more than the nonrefundable fare. I purchased Y simply becasue I wanted the upgrade. As fare as I am concerned, Y is a form of discounted first. Therefore I should be refunded the difference between Y and the lowest fare on day of booking. I accept that this infromation may not be available to a gate agent, but that doesn't change the principle of the thing. CO needs a process to refund appropriately. After some back and forth, they gave me a Denied Boarding document and a $150 voucher. After reading the Denoied Board document, it appears that minimum compensation under that rule is $200. I intend to go after at least the additional $50 and press a case for the fare difference as described above. Comments? |
Originally Posted by martinplas
IMJ you are SOL. Be happy you got 150% EQM, $150.00 and a seat to your destination..Its hard to complain about getting what you pay for. If you want a sure seat in First, buy it. Albeit ,buying a Y ticket as a Plat gives you some of the best odds ,it still is no guarantee you willl not crap out.
Still, it is pretty surprising that a Plat on a full Y ticket got kicked out of FC. David |
I don't think you deserve anything. True, you might buy the Y ticket because of the upgrade perk, but that's your decision. I buy Y tickets because I need maximum flexibility, not because of the upgrade perk. However, sometimes that doesn't work because the flights are full. You paid for a ticket, they gave you what you paid for (a coach ticket). bac luck that you got bumped down, but it's happened to us all. Last month I had to change my flight, gave up my AU, and had to sit in a middle seat....but that's another story...:)
Sorry, but it happens. Randidliyo |
Maybe its me , but NO WAY would I expect CO or any other carrier to compensate me in any way if I was Downgraded due to equipment change, thats if I hadnt purchased a FC or BF seat to begin with. Had I purchased with $$ or miles a FC/BF seat then I would expect compenstation to the degree that I Overpaid, Only.
The OP purchased a Coach tkt and in the end got Coach. OK the OP might have been able to buy a cheaper a less expensive tkt the day they did, but unless they have a printout of such, I would say no dice. had the OP been Downgraded on the same equipment but due to an Oversold problem or cause CO was able to sell a FC tkt for alot more then the OP paid then Compensation would be in order if proven and if it was me Id probably Never fly CO again, since I would have to expect it to keep reoccuring when ever it suited CO. |
First, my experience is that they do not bump you based on fare paid. In December I was downgraded due to an equipment change and I was on a FC ticket. I would think that if your seat number is on both planes you will have better luck. Unfortunately, my seat did not exist when the downgrade was from a 767 to a 757. In my case another F class seat did not exist for any other flights that day or the next.
You may want to look at CO's Contract of Carriage about this issue. It isn't pretty, so you may not get much, if anything more than what you received (look at 4(b)(iii)). Since you were on a Y fare, you are not technically entitled to anything else. And since they always try to use the Y fare as the basis for the difference, its cost from a FC fare many times is minimal (even though I would never intentionally buy a Y fare except under dire circumstances): "4) Compensation for Passengers Denied Boarding Involuntarily a) Subject to the following exceptions, CO shall pay compensation to Passengers denied boarding involuntarily from an Oversold flight at the rate of 200% of the sum of the value of the Passenger’s remaining flight coupons up to the Passenger’s next Stopover, or if none, to the Passenger’s final destination with a maximum of $400. However, the compensation shall be half the amount described above, with a $200 maximum, if CO arranges for comparable air transportation, or other transportation used by the Passenger that, at the time either such arrangement is made, is planned to arrive at the airport of the Passenger’s next Stopover or if none, at the airport of the Passenger’s destination, not later than two hours after the time the direct or connecting flight on which confirmed space is held is planned to arrive in the case of interstate and overseas air transportation, or four hours after such time in the case of foreign air transportation. b) EXCEPTIONS: A Passenger denied boarding involuntarily from an Oversold flight shall not be eligible for denied boarding compensation if: (i) The Passenger holding a Ticket for confirmed reserved space does not comply fully with CO’s ticketing, check-in, and reconfirmation procedures, and requirements in this Contract of Carriage for acceptance for transportation; (ii) The flight for which the Passenger holds confirmed reserved space is unable to accommodate the Passenger because of substitution of equipment of lesser capacity when required by operational or safety reasons; (iii) The Passenger is offered accommodations or is seated in a section of the aircraft other than that specified on his/her ticket at no extra charge. Provided, if a Passenger is seated in a section for which a lower fare applies, the Passenger will be entitled to a refund applicable to the difference in fares; (iv) The Passenger is accommodated on alternate transportation at no extra cost, which at the time such arrangements are made, is planned to arrive at the airport of the Passenger’s next Stopover, (if any), or at the final destination, not later than 60 minutes within the scheduled arrival time of the flight on which the Passenger held confirmed reserved space; or (v) The Passenger is an employee of CO or of another Carrier or other person traveling without a confirmed reserved space. 5) Payment Time and Form a) Compensation will be made by CO on the day and at the place where the failure to provide confirmed reserved space occurs, and if accepted by the Passenger, the Passenger will provide a signed receipt to CO. However, when CO has arranged, for the Passenger’s convenience, alternate means of transportation that departs before the compensation to the Passenger under this provision can be prepared and given to the Passenger, the compensation shall be sent by mail or other means to the Passenger within 24 hours thereafter. b) CO may offer free or reduced rate air transportation in lieu of monetary compensation due under this Rule, if the value of the transportation credit offered is equal to or greater than the monetary compensation otherwise required and CO informs the Passenger of the amount and that the Passenger may decline the transportation credit. 6) Limitation of Liability If CO’s offer of compensation pursuant to the above provisions is accepted by the Passenger, such payment will constitute full compensation for all actual or anticipatory damages incurred or to be incurred by the Passenger as a result of CO’s failure to provide the Passenger with confirmed reserved space. 7) Written Explanation of Denied Boarding Compensation and Boarding Priority Rules Immediately after a denied boarding occurs, CO will give Passengers who are denied boarding involuntarily a written explanatory statement describing . . . . |
Originally Posted by DiverDave
Still, it is pretty surprising that a Plat on a full Y ticket got kicked out of FC.
I agree: I can't think of too many scenarios that would bump a Y Platt, except that the remaining FC passengers were all paid FC. It would be interesting to know some details. What was the specific equipment change? What were the departure and arrival cities? And were there connections involved? |
Well - I think we are missing an important point here. The OP is a Platinum, and he decided to buy up to the full Y fare in order to get the upgrade immediately.
While digging out the CoC sure results in no compensation being due; however, looking at the relationship with the client, CO should go beyond the CoC to keep a high-yield passenger happy. They got his money afterall, and I betcha they would love to keep the money from full Y's coming. |
Thoughts:
1.) OP not entitled to anything. 2.) I can't believe that they would bump the OP vs. other Elites/people on cheaper Coacy fares. |
Originally Posted by rcs85551
Well - I think we are missing an important point here. The OP is a Platinum, and he decided to buy up to the full Y fare in order to get the upgrade immediately.
While digging out the CoC sure results in no compensation being due; however, looking at the relationship with the client, CO should go beyond the CoC to keep a high-yield passenger happy. They got his money afterall, and I betcha they would love to keep the money from full Y's coming. |
Originally Posted by craz
Co didnt have to offer Anything to the OP, now it seems the OP wants everything including the kitchen sink.
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Originally Posted by randidliyo
I don't think you deserve anything. True, you might buy the Y ticket because of the upgrade perk, but that's your decision. I buy Y tickets because I need maximum flexibility, not because of the upgrade perk. However, sometimes that doesn't work because the flights are full. You paid for a ticket, they gave you what you paid for (a coach ticket). bac luck that you got bumped down, but it's happened to us all. Last month I had to change my flight, gave up my AU, and had to sit in a middle seat....but that's another story...:)
Sorry, but it happens. Randidliyo IMHO, it wasn't a coach ticket. He bought the ticket because it upgraded immediately to FC. If he wanted a coach ticket, he could have bought the ticket at a lower price. |
Originally Posted by BenjaminNYC
Thoughts:
1.) OP not entitled to anything. 2.) I can't believe that they would bump the OP vs. other Elites/people on cheaper Coacy fares. Perhaps by the letter of the law, you are correct, the OP isn't entitled to anything. If a company doesn't treat customers well, it loses them. It doesn't happen suddenly, but by the time it's clear there is a problem, it's very expensive to fix. :eek: |
Originally Posted by ContinentalFan
IMHO, it wasn't a coach ticket. He bought the ticket because it upgraded immediately to FC. If he wanted a coach ticket, he could have bought the ticket at a lower price.
whether CO should have given $150 or not depends on the difference between what he paid and the cheapest coach ticket available at the time he purchased. if he wanted coach, he would have bought the cheapest coach ticket. and, even if CO offers the difference in a travel voucher, technically that still wouldn't be enough since a CO voucher isn't exactly cash. |
Originally Posted by fly co to see the yanks
i agree with this sentiment.
whether CO should have given $150 or not depends on the difference between what he paid and the cheapest coach ticket available at the time he purchased. if he wanted coach, he would have bought the cheapest coach ticket. and, even if CO offers the difference in a travel voucher, technically that still wouldn't be enough since a CO voucher isn't exactly cash. |
I have to admit to some surprise on some of the responses
I wanted a first class seat, so I bought a full Y with an immediate upgrade. These are the rules that CO sets - not me. On many occasions, when no Y upgrade was available I have purchased full first. On some occasions First is cheaper than full Y so I do that then also. The equipment change was from an expanded first 737 to an unmodified - 4 fewer seats. If had been given a first class seat on the basis of EUA then I would have been unhappy but sucked it up, since I had not purchased a higher fare class in order to sit in the front. It is interesting to note that they did downgrade by fare paid - my seat still existed on the new aircraft but was issued to someone else: presumably a full fare F passenger. WRT to going after the additional $50. This amount relates to the amount of compensation due according to the CO document given to me by the gate agent. She felt only authorized to issue $150, but the document she referred me to (and signed) clearly states that $200 was due. I have not looked over terms of carriage, and she may have issued that document in error. Nevertheless, it was issued. |
Here is a dilemma: should airline to tell the passenger bumped down from FC on Y ticket to shut up beacuse he bought it in Y
or should they think that they better compensate or next time he would not buy Y ticket and they would not get more money.
Originally Posted by BenjaminNYC
...and if he wanted First, he should have paid for a A/D/Z fare.
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Brittex,
I feel your pain. I think one of the oddest aspects of this story is the fact, as you point out, that full Y is sometimes more than F on CO (obviously, I don't know if that was the case on your trip). It seems that the more expensive fare, regardless of its designation, should always entitle the purchaser to a higher spot in the pecking order. |
a few years back i flew on BA from ORD to LHR, and there was a platinum customer complaining about not being upgraded from business class to first, ms chicken said very calmly and repeatedly "we do not give away our product, and there are no available first class seats. You purchased a business class seat, and we are obligated to provide you with such"
Same situation. Other pax had purchased fc tickets, the op had purchased only a y class ticket, CO was required to supply only a Y class seat, which they did. IMHO, the OP paid for Y got Y. If he wanted first should've paid for first. Simple as that. |
I'm a bit torn on this one, but the more I think about it the more I'm inclined to side in favor of CO, despite my sympathy for the OP. Letter of the law? Sure, he gets bupkis. Airlines going after goodwill? Not in the era of 90%+ load factors.
The problem lies in this: CO is blind to a customer's reason for buying a Y ticket (flexibility or the auto-upgrade to first class). Since the customer did, in fact, buy it for the purpose of getting into first class, he rightfully feels upset that he has been duped on an element of the bargain. BUT - CO sees the upgrade to F on a full Y fare as a 'perk' for those paying for flexibility -- much like free upgrades for elites. From a sales point of view, they do not consider it a way to buy into F -- and I think the OP, given his knowledge of how YUPs function should have been exected to understand this. |
Originally Posted by brittex
I have to admit to some surprise on some of the responses
I wanted a first class seat, so I bought a full Y with an immediate upgrade. These are the rules that CO sets - not me. On many occasions, when no Y upgrade was available I have purchased full first. On some occasions First is cheaper than full Y so I do that then also. The equipment change was from an expanded first 737 to an unmodified - 4 fewer seats. If had been given a first class seat on the basis of EUA then I would have been unhappy but sucked it up, since I had not purchased a higher fare class in order to sit in the front. It is interesting to note that they did downgrade by fare paid - my seat still existed on the new aircraft but was issued to someone else: presumably a full fare F passenger. WRT to going after the additional $50. This amount relates to the amount of compensation due according to the CO document given to me by the gate agent. She felt only authorized to issue $150, but the document she referred me to (and signed) clearly states that $200 was due. I have not looked over terms of carriage, and she may have issued that document in error. Nevertheless, it was issued. this is the game that CO as well as all the others want Us to play, no different then with Upgrading on Intl seats where there arent any seats that can be confirmed at time of purchase. im waiting for CO to start selling "Z" BF fares as a standby Only, thats Only if they cant sell them as J or D will they then allow the passenger to sit in BF. |
Y=f
My $0.02 is if you were bumped from F to Y and you paid full Y, you are entitled to the same compensation that any other passenger who paid to be in the F cabin would be.
Often, full Y is often more expensive than fares available in the forward cabin. And CO's Elite policy pretty much guarantees the F seat at booking if it's available at the time of full-Y purchase. |
It certainly would not have been unreasonable to rebook you onto the flight in the least expensive available fare class and then refund the Y ticket.
Steve |
I have been bumped a few times - equip change and (I suspect) an added Sky Marshall on an EWR to DCA flight.
Each time on full Y. Sucked it up. Did not ask for anything - did not get anything. Happy that it is only an occational issue and upgrades are better then most other airlines. |
Originally Posted by ContinentalFan
IMHO, it wasn't a coach ticket. He bought the ticket because it upgraded immediately to FC. If he wanted a coach ticket, he could have bought the ticket at a lower price.
Originally Posted by aCavalierInCoach
The problem lies in this: CO is blind to a customer's reason for buying a Y ticket (flexibility or the auto-upgrade to first class). Since the customer did, in fact, buy it for the purpose of getting into first class, he rightfully feels upset that he has been duped on an element of the bargain.
BUT - CO sees the upgrade to F on a full Y fare as a 'perk' for those paying for flexibility -- much like free upgrades for elites. From a sales point of view, they do not consider it a way to buy into F -- and I think the OP, given his knowledge of how YUPs function should have been exected to understand this. Now, since the OP was on a full Y fare, s/he obviously could have cancelled upon the downgrade, but I understand that this is not always practicable. But for the future, know that A fares are often only ~$50-100 more than Y fares round-trip, and I think the difference is usually worth it for 1) the COS bonus miles, and 2) less likelihood of a bump due to irregular ops. |
Downgraded, and compensated
OLCI pretty close to the 24 hour mark on DFW to IAH this afternoon. Scored an upgrade to 1F for the ~45 minute flight. Moments before boarding, heard my name called from the GA. When I approached and identified myself, was told he had bad news. Due to "equipment change" they had to downgrade me back to coach. Before I even had a chance to process the "bad news," he told me that they re-seated me in 14F exit row, had two drink coupons and a $100 cert as compensation.
All in all, a pretty sweet deal, especially for such a short flight. But it didn't even give me a chance to really get upset. This is exactly the kind of pre-emptive action that keeps a customer happy. Good job CO ^ |
Originally Posted by brittex
I wanted a first class seat, so I bought a full Y with an immediate upgrade. These are the rules that CO sets - not me.
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pjm44 ^ for searching!
The issue here to me seems to be centered more along the lines of how CO orders downgrades. It seems to be the fairest way to develop a downgrade hierarchy would be to do the opposite of the EUA hierarchy. Hence when a seats broken or the aircraft is swapped out the “booting” order would be: silvers on L,X,...,K,H fares than golds on L,X,...K,H than plats on L,X,...K,H than silvers on full Y, golds on full Y and finally plats on full Y. I also like the idea of CO offering a "service recovery package" (or whatever you want to call it) with some drink coupons/voucher, etc. Life happens and people understand this. However, one would think by giving the boot to the full fare Plat last as well as giving those who did get the boot some free goodies displaced customers would A) be happier, B) not spend the next few hours steaming up hate mail to WeCare. |
Originally Posted by BenjaminNYC
...and if he wanted First, he should have paid for a A/D/Z fare.
Thats utterly ridiculous. No logical person would ever buy an "A" fare if they are platinum, and can get upgraded immediately from a Y. It all boils down to CO common sense. Of course, to the rules, you get nothing, but common sense says that somebody might buy a Y to "get" the upgrade confirmed on the spot. That is COMMON SENSE. Yes, the "rules" say you bought coach. Logic says " you bought coach to get F, and because you're loyal, we reward you". You DO NOT throw that back in a customer's face when things don't go well for the company, and they have to change equipment. You appease the customer with apologies, and CASH. You don't say to a dedicated customer who paid a very high fare "You got what you paid for". IF at the time of ticketing, he wanted coach, he wouldn't have paid a Y. PEOPLE - GET REAL! COMMON SENSE, PEOPLE - COMMON SENSE. Rules apply when they need to be applied, not when they're screwing their best customers. Please. Take the contract of carriage and burn it. Its an absurd document. There is absolutely nothing logical about airfares. |
I was downgraded this week on IAH-ORD (inop seat) and was given a customer care positive space upgrade....
that was nice! |
Originally Posted by JerseyCityS
Thats utterly ridiculous. No logical person would ever buy an "A" fare if they are platinum, and can get upgraded immediately from a Y.
It all boils down to CO common sense. Of course, to the rules, you get nothing, but common sense says that somebody might buy a Y to "get" the upgrade confirmed on the spot. That is COMMON SENSE. Yes, the "rules" say you bought coach. Logic says " you bought coach to get F, and because you're loyal, we reward you". You DO NOT throw that back in a customer's face when things don't go well for the company, and they have to change equipment. You appease the customer with apologies, and CASH. You don't say to a dedicated customer who paid a very high fare "You got what you paid for". IF at the time of ticketing, he wanted coach, he wouldn't have paid a Y. PEOPLE - GET REAL! COMMON SENSE, PEOPLE - COMMON SENSE. Rules apply when they need to be applied, not when they're screwing their best customers. Please. Take the contract of carriage and burn it. Its an absurd document. There is absolutely nothing logical about airfares. So what is your solution???? If equipment changes, which is usually at the last minute, the people who PAID for first class seats, should be accomodated. If there are no SEATS left for those who purchased Y-Up tickets what do you expect continental to do but put them in coach on the same flight. |
Bad situation .... good outcome
These situations are the proverbial tough call. I think that people who are downgraded are primarily due a thorough explanation. I wouldn't accept the "equip change and you lose" mentality. I would ask how it was determined that I lost -unlikely that they will show you the manifest, have the record documented that I was involuntarily downgraded, and proceed from there. I don't believe that anything is "owed" but a positive space upgrade and 2 drink chits should be a NO Brainer and a win - win.
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Agreed
Originally Posted by Mister Nice
These situations are the proverbial tough call. I think that people who are downgraded are primarily due a thorough explanation. I wouldn't accept the "equip change and you lose" mentality. I would ask how it was determined that I lost -unlikely that they will show you the manifest, have the record documented that I was involuntarily downgraded, and proceed from there. I don't believe that anything is "owed" but a positive space upgrade and 2 drink chits should be a NO Brainer and a win - win.
But we all know that some elites think the world revolves around them :p Yeah, I said it! ;) And since they know the system better there should be a universal process in place when this happens. A space upgrade and drink tickets based on the length of the flight. |
Originally Posted by pjm44
OLCI pretty close to the 24 hour mark on DFW to IAH this afternoon. Scored an upgrade to 1F for the ~45 minute flight. Moments before boarding, heard my name called from the GA. When I approached and identified myself, was told he had bad news. Due to "equipment change" they had to downgrade me back to coach. Before I even had a chance to process the "bad news," he told me that they re-seated me in 14F exit row, had two drink coupons and a $100 cert as compensation.
All in all, a pretty sweet deal, especially for such a short flight. But it didn't even give me a chance to really get upset. This is exactly the kind of pre-emptive action that keeps a customer happy. Good job CO ^ |
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