Enough already
 

Give me a break with all this bashing! Get a life. Delta did it and everyone screamed and was leaving them. Thats why today Delta is in bankrupcy, its just the opposite. As I always said if you want something go buy it. but most here including myself are looking to get something for NOTHING. If I get it great if not, I just hope I get it the next time.
I even had a few MRs that I purchased on CO that are now a waste or at least till 2005 being Silver or gold might help. But I dont blame CO, they got to do what they have to in order to stay in business. If you're not happy with the new system( Im sure itll help many) then move to any carrier but GROW UP and dont carry on like a little kid who had his ice cream taken away. There are just too many vital things happening around the world to let this get to me.
i understand that many will get pis-ed off, heck I didnt book a flight last Mon and it was $150 more on Tues w/o any notice, good morning. Rental cars , hotels are all doing the same. The game as we all knew it is over and dead. Every so often there will be a goody thrown out there but stop all the crying and just move on.
I had been a Gold with Delta and I left after all their changes as for CO Ill probably stay at Silver and see what happens. Got a permanet Platinum at AA but that doesnt help for upgrading since cant get it by means of not using miles or upgrage pts

[This message has been edited by craz (edited 09-19-2003).]

See, that's just it -- a lot of folks don't think this *will* help them stay in business; it will just accelerate into a death spiral if unchecked. And a lot of folks have much more at stake with CO with their status and accumulated miles than I do.

This whole thing can only raise more revenue for CO if you believe that these changes will encourage a significant number of travelers to pay over $1,000 for full-Y fare instead of (say) $300 for a discounted fare.

I don't know business travelers whose company will allow that. I don't know leisure travelers on anything remotely resembling a budget doing that. I don't see wealthy travelers doing that -- they'll just book straight F anyway, as usual.

So they are pinning their hopes on "business travellers" (most of whom are in extreme cost-cutting modes where cheapest available fare is *mandated*)...and perhaps a few less price-conscious individuals. I just don't see that as a "growth" market; if anything, that is shrinking.

Elite status and an occasional "free" trip aren't worth it if you have to pay 3x-4x more on each paid flight to get those perks. That's a sucker's bet, and apparently CO is banking on enough people doing it to make it work. The difference in price between Y and F is often much smaller than the difference between Y and a discounted coach seat, and in the end, the latter will likely be receiving the same level of service.

As much as I don't like the change, but I think you hit it right on the nail. United is still in BK, and AA is losing money left and right. Delta is actually performing better financially than AA and UA.

I can only wish CO approach this by using AA's Q points rather than Delta's method. The end is result is similar. I don't care if they award 3 times elite mileage bonuses for full Y passengers as long as I get my full credit.

It will be enough when the policies are rolled-back and Gordo-the-liar apologizes or resigns. Nothing less.

One argument I've seen in these threads implies that CO is expecting people to purposely pay more for their tickets in order to gain elite status faster.

What CO wants to do is the same as what DL wants to do, and is the same as what AA wants to do -- they want people who pay high fares on other airlines to switch. They don't necessarily want people who pay low fares to go away, but if given the choice between keeping the low-fare buyer or getting the high-fare buyer, they'll take the latter.

Given the fixed size of First Class cabins, and the fact that increasing the size of F means removing coach seats, the airlines would prefer the low-fare buyer go away, to be replaced with a high-fare buyer, rather than doing whatever it takes to keep both of them.

Why do some people pay a high fare, you ask? They don't do so because they like paying more money, they do so because they book at the last minute, or they don't stay over Saturday night (in most markets).

I've also read that many people pay low fares sometimes and high fares sometimes. So what?!! "Low" and "high" are merely benchmarks. Calculate the average fare you pay, and see where you fit in the pack.

Finally, I would like to comment on the complaints that AA uses the "carrot" approach while CO and DL are using the "stick" approach. People, think about it -- MQM's, EQM', Q-points, whatever they're called -- they are arbitrary measuring sticks! There is no law, political or physical, that sets elite qualification standards at a certain number of miles/points/whatever.

In other words, you tell me which would be preferable: (Q=qualifying miles/points for elite status)

Airline A offers full Q credit on low fares, a 50% Q bonus on mediocre fares, and double Q on high fares.

Airline B is evil. They give full Q credit only on the high fares, a 25% Q demerit on mediocre fares, and only half Q on the low fares. Bad, bad, bad!

Which is better? A, you say? Wait, there's more...


Airline A requires 50,000 Q to be Silver, 100,000 Q to be Gold, and 200,000 Q to be Platinum.

Airline B requires 25,000 Q to be Silver, 50,000 Q to be Gold, and 100,000 Q to be Platinum.

Now which is better?

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"There's no sadder sight in this world than that of a football player trying to think." -- Daria

The average fare, whatever it is, is now rewarded less than it was under the current plan. That is a benefit reduction, plain and simple, in a string of benefit reductions.


You left one contrast out

Airline B says "we're making things better by charging you more and taking away services" in public announcements led by a vulgar, lying blowhard.

Did airline B say "we're facing a hard economic reality, and therefore we're cutting back to try to stay afloat" No. Real men and women are honest. Lying scum call press conferences to create a smokescreen to fool as many potential customers as they can while crawling like worms in the darkness to rot-away their services while they hope nobody is looking...and then lie about how it is really better than it was.

This is what you want to defend? The pattern of deceit and contempt shown by Bethune, Kellner and Bergsrud?


[This message has been edited by NJDavid (edited 09-19-2003).]

NJDavid, all I'm trying to do is demonstrate some mathematics. Everyone is having a hissy fit over the fact that CO and DL are reducing Q's while good ol' AA is giving, and has been giving for a while, extra Q's.

The Q's themselves are useless. They only mean something when you look at the thresholds for elite qualification.

I realize that DL and CO have left their thresholds alone, so the net effect is raising the requirements for elite qualification. Yes, it is harder to become elite on DL and CO compared to AA. Maybe the elite population at CO and DL is too high, but not for AA.

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"There's no sadder sight in this world than that of a football player trying to think." -- Daria

Not correct.

Everyone is having a hissyfit because CO is reducing again, period. And lying about it again.

Lest you forget, the track record:

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++
*Elimination of purchased First Class Upgrades, confirmed within 24 hours of departure.
*Elimination of ELT certificates good for confirmed advance upgrades.
*Elimination of advance upgrades on H fares
*Removal of top tier Elite capacity free rewards at reduced mileage.
*Elimination of reduced miles companion rewards
* Elimination of the Infinite Elite Program
* Elimination of Tier Bonuses
* Saturday night stay requirement added to standard reward tickets
* Implementation of the 30 Day Rule—“so Elites can get more international upgrades”
* Loss of ability to upgrade on Coach reward tickets
* Implementation of the 72 Hour Rule for international upgrades—produces many happy Nonrevs, and allows many Elites to experience the joys of a 31” pitch seat for 9 to 16 hours
* Elimination of the 50% phone-in reservation bonus for Elites
* Implementation of HoKeY fares, making CO the most restrictive of all U.S. carriers for international upgrades
* Elimination of 20,000 mile Off-Peak Awards, immediately after Gordo “promised” us that there’d be no further benefit cuts
* International upgrade availability “enhanced” by the addition of $600-800 BendForward “service” fees
*Elimination of free elite luggage tags
* Refusal of agents to manually upgrade EUA omissions
* Greatly reduced Bonus Miles opportunities, including the elimination of the very popular GGONE123 bonus and the elimination of Bonus Mile opportunities on Q & T fares
* Implementation of $4 drink charge on international flights
* Loss of ability to upgrade Continental.com Specials
* Elimination of OnePass miles on Continental.com Specials
* Implementation of the most draconian mileage expiration rules of any U.S. carrier, other than WN
* Elimination of Senior fares
* Raising Club prices after AmWest was forcibly dropped from the partnership by CO, resulting in the loss of access to all their clubs as well.
*Removal of value of unused economy tickets
*Removal of $35 redeposit fee waiver
*Removal of paper upgrade certificates
*Removal of all fee waivers for Elites
*Removal of no fee, same day flight changes
*Removal of automatic upgrade advantage for loyal advance purchase
*Removal of "A" movies from IFE
*Removal of normal headphones, replaced with "state of the art" (if the particular art is garbage) plastic ear clips
*Removal of major magazines in airport stands
*Removal of top-shelf liquor at clubs
*Elimination of ability to transfer One Pass miles to HHonors program
*Elimination of specialty meals
*Elimination of full EQM on lower fares.
*Increase of domestic mileage upgrades from 10K to 15K miles EACH WAY!
*Increase in Bend Forward international upgrade fees, even on HoKeY tickets
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++



[This message has been edited by NJDavid (edited 09-19-2003).]

That's quite a list.

NJDavid -

Great list, but let's not forget:

*Decrease in average price you pay for a mainline ticket, in 2000 dollars, from $361.32 in 2000 to $300.81 in 2002, a decrease of 16.7%.

*Reduction in the number of people per plane, from 74.5% to 72.1% of capacity, leading to a reduced chance that the middle-seat beside you is full.

*Significant increase in the chance your flight arrives on-time (83.5% in 2002 vs 80.7% in 2001).

*Significant reduction in the amount of time your plane spends on a taxiway.

*Significant reduction in the percentage chance of baggage handling error (3.14 in 2002 vs. 4.29 in 2001).


Source: Continental Airlines Form 10-K, University of Nebraska at Omaha Aviation Institute. Also, assumes 2.5% inflation.

[This message has been edited by fenstere (edited 09-19-2003).]

I am impressed by this list.

If what David claimed is true, then why did OP members put up with CO for so long?

The angry words in this forum from some OP members towards the CO management team are extraordinary. Even SkyMiles members have not been so harsh to the Delta Airlines.

CO headquater in Hoston must have assigned someone to monitor this forum. I wonder what's in their heads after going through more than 1,000 messages in this forum since Monday.

it's hardly something for NOTHING-- it's something for directing your $5000, $10,000, or $15,000 worth of flying [spending averages for the various elite levels] to one particular company instead of its competition. that's a car. and no car dealer could treat any customer as some airlines do and get away with it.

one can quibble over the levels of benefits, sure-- the market price of these "rebates" is bound to fluctuate. but deliberately annoying people who control meaningful blocks of your revenue is suicide.
at the margin, replacing even a single Gold level customer totally would require finding up to 50 single-trip grandmas to pay $200 each for one trip.
only it would be more than that, because the Gold member's place would be taken on each flight only by someone willing to pay a little less for that seat.

Personally, I don't trust CO published statistics anymore...and so much so that I wouldn't even trust CO's 10-K to burn if it was set on fire.

But if that information is loosley based upon truth, each and every point can be accounted for simply with the retiring of the 727s and their (and select 737s) replacement with Jungle Jets.

[This message has been edited by NJDavid (edited 09-19-2003).]

Wrong. On CO, one can currently become Platinum with either 75,000 miles or 90 segments.

On AA, one can currently become Executive Platinum with 100,000 miles or 100,000 q-points. AA does not allow segment qualification for EXP, though hypothetically you could do it on 200 segments given that AA awards at least 500 miles per segment.

Conclusion: It is always been much harder to qualify for AA's top tier than Continental's. With the changes, Continental may be hoping to make Platinum qualification just as hard. You think they could have been a little less deceptive about it and just raised the bar to 100,000 miles with no segment qualification.

To David in NJ with the list of atrocities committed by the CO management

Well, I just purchased ewr-lhr/rome-ewr for $390 r/t in december and because of my status I stand to get, what, around 20,000 miles. I checked and this is less than 50% what this fare cost in 1952 (there were no ff awards then, of course) and I ride CAL's comfortable, new, on-time 767's. So as much as I love this airline, I won't take it personally if they tell me to beat it to another carrier when I'm paying rock bottom it's been a great run 500,000 miles with CAL, I still think the best run airline (and one of the best run businesses) I've seen in this country. And I am willing that most people who fly with Air Gordo would be wailing if it didn't make it through this winter and then they'd HAVE to make good on their absurd threats to go elsewhere in search of a better deal, which all but the most hard core CO haters know THEY'RE NOT GONNA GET.

Count me in with those who say it's hard to see any positives coming to CO as a result of this, and certainly not enough to balance out all the run-off they're going to get.

Wow, that is a pretty scary list. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

The first page of the CO board is of course filled with 80% of threads from p!ssed off flyers.

That is a natural response, but whining about it here will not acheive much IMO. The way to make CO regret this is to get mass MEDIA reporting the changes. AND that once loyal CO fliers are rioting about it etc.

Branticelli had a good piece in his current column.

If NJDavid is correct - and I must state up front as a non current CO flyer I have no idea on that - this list being sent to media will get the point across.

If anyone cares to do this as a project, please email me. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

I have a large email list of EVERY travel Editor in the USA media. Print, radio and TV and sydicated networks. An almost impossible list to replicate - in under a few days of web trawling, anyway. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

One bulk "bcc" email to them will get some action if a list agreed by CO flyers listing the removal of benefits is sent.

These guys want HARD FACTS, not hysteria or emaotion.

I stopped reading at that point. CO does not fly to LHR. Only Gatwick, as the freaking 737 they flew to Stansted (imagine being in a 737 over the Atlantic) was cancelled by them after 9/11.

Fly a real airline...or rather look for a job at one.

so i didnt get this fare? You are correct the flight is on Virgin and the return is on CAL(purchased on their web site)I stand corrected. I might have to start posting a little more often so that we can reduce the hysteria- its actually amazing to me that for a airline with tens of thousands of ff's there are only a relative handful of people bashing them-incessantly- this might be something I would be quite happy about if I was Gordon/Kellner

One could get to LHR on a co ticket via VS.

So CO's "superior" product is a 2-step block buys on an airline that doesn't even recognize NonePass elite status? I suppose you haven't read the stories about how VS forces CO passengers to sit in broken chairs if they're amongst the block CO purchased and there are no other CO seats available (regardless of what's open on the flight).

When I fly to LHR, I get FastLane access through immigration, an arrivals suite to shower and have breakfast, and people on the flight and on the ground who are genuinely happy to have me as a customer. And I've received operational upgrades twice this year...to real First Class on a real 3 class flight.

Like I said, fly a real airline, you'll never miss Gordo-the-liar and the Continattitude.

You've published this list several times and I've noticed just a few slight misstatements that ought to be corrected:

1. Drink prices are now $5 worldwide on CO.
2. I've upgraded and gotten miles on co.com specials as late as a few weeks ago. Was there a change there?
3. Redeposit of mileage is free for platinums, not $35.
4. Same day standby changes are no cost, after competition forced back that change.

This of course doesn't diminish the astonishing number of negative changes that have occurred to a program that wasn't supposed to change.

Changed my mind, as I don't really feeling like getting involved.

[This message has been edited by cmdinnyc (edited 09-19-2003).]

The list is not mine, but originates from this archived thread:

http://www.flyertalk.com/pasttalk/ft...ML/005740.html

I have tried to keep it updated, but as you point out, have missed some recent changes in both directions.

I'm sure you're correct on #s 1 and 4, I'd like some feedback rom Plats who actually still waste their time on CO metal on your points 2 and 3 - as I've read recently that they are not the case.

Anyway, here is the updated list (with one I missed before). And to those of you who ask, many have disagreed with me on CO, but this list is pure fact, generated by multiple elites over many years, and not in dispute. Welcome to the "takeaway and call it an enhancement" world of NonePass


*Elimination of purchased First Class Upgrades, confirmed within 24 hours of departure.
*Elimination of ELT certificates good for confirmed advance upgrades.
*Elimination of advance upgrades on H fares
*Removal of top tier Elite capacity free rewards at reduced mileage.
*Elimination of reduced miles companion rewards
* Elimination of the Infinite Elite Program
* Elimination of Tier Bonuses
* Saturday night stay requirement added to standard reward tickets
* Implementation of the 30 Day Rule—“so Elites can get more international upgrades”
* Loss of ability to upgrade on Coach reward tickets
* Implementation of the 72 Hour Rule for international upgrades—produces many happy Nonrevs, and allows many Elites to experience the joys of a 31” pitch seat for 9 to 16 hours
* Elimination of the 50% phone-in reservation bonus for Elites
* Implementation of HoKeY fares, making CO the most restrictive of all U.S. carriers for international upgrades
* Elimination of 20,000 mile Off-Peak Awards, immediately after Gordo “promised” us that there’d be no further benefit cuts
* International upgrade availability “enhanced” by the addition of $600-800 BendForward “service” fees
*Elimination of free elite luggage tags
* Refusal of agents to manually upgrade EUA omissions
* Greatly reduced Bonus Miles opportunities, including the elimination of the very popular GGONE123 bonus and the elimination of Bonus Mile opportunities on Q & T fares
* Implementation of $4 drink charge on international flights
* Loss of ability to upgrade Continental.com Specials
* Elimination of OnePass miles on Continental.com Specials
* Implementation of the most draconian mileage expiration rules of any U.S. carrier, other than WN
* Elimination of Senior fares
* Raising Club prices after AmWest was forcibly dropped from the partnership by CO, resulting in the loss of access to all their clubs as well.
*Removal of value of unused economy tickets (rescinded with all of the other major airlines a few months ago)
*Removal of $35 redeposit fee waiver
*Removal of paper upgrade certificates
*Removal of all fee waivers for Elites
*Removal of no fee, same day flight changes
*Removal of automatic upgrade advantage for loyal advance purchase
*increase of newly imposed international drink fees from $4 to $5
*Removal of "A" movies from IFE
*Removal of normal headphones, replaced with "state of the art" (if the particular art is garbage) plastic ear clips
*Ticket Counter Agents being replaced by machines with a refusal to provide personal service unless absolutely necessary
*Removal of major magazines in airport stands
*Removal of top-shelf liquor at clubs
*Elimination of ability to transfer One Pass miles to HHonors program
*Elimination of specialty meals
*Elimination of full EQM on lower fares.
*Increase of domestic mileage upgrades from 10K to 15K miles EACH WAY!
*Increase in Bend Forward international upgrade fees, even on HoKeY tickets

[This message has been edited by NJDavid (edited 09-19-2003).]

Yes no mileage on co.com weekly specials begins next year. Given how lame some of the specials have been lately...this week for example...it's not all that bad. However, sometimes they are good specials.

Gordo-the-liar answers to his Board Of Directors, not to you. If by the end of next year he shows more profits (like Delta shows today), he might have lost you but will gain more ctedit with the people who matter to him more.

Let's NEVER forget that FF Programs are one of, if not the ONLY Portion of the cartel carriers business that is PROFITABLE! What is happening here is a blatant attempt to wring the very last profit dollar out of the people who ALREADY pay most of the frieght in the first place.

Put another way: Let's take the 15% of the customer volume that already generates 25% of the revenue and squeeze them some more! Why just rape them when we can pillage too?

If this arrogance doesn't spur you to rise up in righteous indignation then I suggest that you are not only apathetic, but a collaborator.

It cracks me up when I read arguments using Delta "making more money" as a validation for this new CO policy. "Delta did it, and their performance improved!"

Could it just be (gasp!) that they are making more money because of other business decisions??!! Or just a general improvement in their particular markets?

Could it just be that they would be making much more money right now, if they hadn't changed their FF program for the worse??!!

Please do not try to equate things in this matter. There is simply no viable data to back it up.

Because I'd lay you dollar to donuts that it hurt them (even though they may not want to admit it). Fortunately for some Execs job security, the bonehead decision is likely being "covered up" by improved performance that likely has nothing to do with the change.

IMHO.

[This message has been edited by PremEx (edited 09-20-2003).]

The Feds do the same thing with taxes and almost no one rises up in righteous indignation! On the contrary, a large portion of America thinks this is fair. Maybe if they had the FFyer's analogy to apply to this logic, things would be different?

Is this really true? I searched the CO website and this board and didn't find any reference. Living in Houston, I find many good weekend opportunities but I would be much less likely to help CO fill an empty seat at the last minute if I didn't get miles and/or upgrades.

Doesn't CO realize many people contribute meaningfully to their bottom line on leisure fares and weekend fares where yield management has identified weak demand? Even if they reduce capacity, there are still slack periods away from the business travel patterns. Giving away devalued miles or an upgrade to a seriously degraded first class seat isn't too much to pay for cold hard cash.

Many of these leisure travelers who do earn platinum probably aren't 'stealing' upgrades from high dollar flyers since they typically travel against the tide anyways when prices are lower and it's their time off.

Lose too many leisure flyers and CO will be completely at risk of weathering business travel cycles alone. No amount of enticements will get a business traveler on a plane if the business climate is poor.

I here ya. I think its AA for me. I have had enough of CO.

Well I would submit to you that the tyranny of the IRS is not appropriate for this thread! I could fill Randy's server with opinions about how the vast majority of Sheeple in this country drink the government Kool-Aid.

But this thread is about OUR continuing to put up with the Mullins, Bethune's, Siegel's and others who continue to pee on our sneakers and say "Oh look it's raining"

[This message has been edited by PineyBob (edited 09-21-2003).]

Gordo usually aims a bit higher than our sneakers, Bob.


------------------
Continental Airlines and bankruptcy: The third time will be the charm!

Incomparable. I don't have an alternate IRS that I can go to for a lower rate.

CO fliers, however, can fly other airlines in response.

Besides, we as voters have more say about our taxes, than CO fliers do with their airline, it seems.

DL is NOT in bankruptcy -- they're (arguably) the most financial sound network carrier (which isn’t saying much!!)

Agree re BK, but I think Southwest might disagree with your other comment. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by ozstamps (edited 09-21-2003).]

WN's program is superior in part because it is so darn simple. Indeed, that's not only true of the success of the FF program, but of the airline as a whole. And while I don't fly WN much, if I were closer to an airport they serve, I would fly them much more. It is an excellent, well-run airline that delivers exactly what it promises. Which is so often not the case with the Big Six.

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Continental Airlines and bankruptcy: The third time will be the charm!

Otto,
You are dead on regarding Southwest. They deliver EXACTLY what they promise! Good bad or indifferent they know who they are, who their customer is and essentially how to keep them. And this is praise coming from a guy who doesn't like to fly them. Their business model and network don't suit my travel plans or my FF perks that I desire. To me the beauty of SWA is they Keep It Simple and they make money doing it.

The low fares are IMO a myth and I have a copy of a pretty detailed survey that was published in the St. Petersburg Times that supports my position.

If you wouldn't mind, could you send that survery my way. Its only one case but I checked from ALB-TUS in Oct to go out to the Stifs in AZ. WN was 300 each way. The majors 400.

I'll check with the author, he has some concerns about it appearing here or on US Aviation. I got hold of it because I kinda helped get it published. The blurb was in the St. Petersburg, FL Times. Author was Steve huettal