JaredH - You appear to be an extremely uncaring, mean person. You should be prohibited from frequenting these boards. You are done right nasty. I would bet that you do not have children and never will-Thank God!

May you have octuplets.

Please keep those octuplets off my flights!

Especially the banging part.. . http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

"I don't like to see or hear kids in restaurants, stores, airplanes, etc. And you know what, judging by the behavior of the children in these places, the kids don't like being there either. I don't understand why parents who otherwise dote on their kids seem to think that it is a good idea to subject them to discomfort and anxiety in public places."


I have resisted posting to this thread also, but you, oh high and mighty JaredH, have managed to pull me in with the above referenced comment. I am the kind of parent you apparently cannot stand. I take my kids with me just about everywhere and always have since they were little bitty. I think that exposing children to different social situations helps them to learn how to behave properly in those places. That doesn't mean that I will stay in a public place with a screaming kid until he behaves the way I want. No, we will leave and try again another day. Your face is the one I love when I troop into ,say Cafe Annie's, with my crowd. It's the look of scorn and disgust that says "There goes my evening!" Later, it's the look of amazement because you've forgotten we were there. That's right: well behaved, restaurant friendly kids. Those same kids travel all the time. They love flying. Maybe you will get the pleasure of their company some flight, we'll know it's you by the look on your face!

Jared, you should have resisted.

According to your profile you only joined this board a few months ago. The behavior of babies/young children on airplanes has been the source of many heated debates on these boards just as it is on this thread. It is something frequent flyers feel VERY strongly about. Sometimes the thread starts off with nothing to do with children and then evolves into the pro, anti and could-care-less factions declaring war on each other. A search can probably bring up some lengthy debates that got really ugly.

Your comments Jared, were the most mean spirited, ugliest, and naive of them all. Your comments are inappropriate for these boards and apparently, so are you.

Like I said, blind indignation.

It isn't mean spirited to point out that many children, especially very young children, do not enjoy being carried around all day by their parents through airports, shopping malls, museums, etc. That is why younger children cry and older ones misbehave. It isn't because they are bad, just because they are bored, tired, hungry or otherwise uncomfortable. So don't you dare call me mean; if anything I am standing up for these poor kids.

From the very beginning, this thread has been about adults and their behavior. It hasn't had anything really do to with children; they are just along for the ride.

Many of you are angry because I challenged the logic of appropriateness that lets you do what you please so long as you have your kids alongside. The knee jerk reaction is predictable: "He challenged my right to change diapers in public, he's a bad person" or "he must be evil, he doesn't think it is a good idea to take infants on red eye flights." My response: What a load of malarkey.

The fact that so many of you tried to conflate my criticism of your behavior with a hatred of children, have tried to impugn my character or have even suggested that I shouldn't be allowed to participate on this board reveals how extreme and unreasonable your position is. It also demonstrates what narrow ethical grounds you inhabit.

You still can't answer my question of whether the needs of a family of three should take priority over those of two hundred people, not even by discounting the intensity of those needs. Instead the best you can offer is to "shoosh" a FA and tell me I am nasty.

You also can't address whether hauling infants along on a grueling airplane trip is really good for the child. The best answer I saw was that taking children into public places helps to socialize them. That is a laudable aim, but it seems that socialization is a better argument when you are taking a toddler to McDonald's or the petting zoo. It doesn't work when you take a young child on a red eye flight.

It is a gross hypocrisy to paint anyone who refuses to go along with your unreasonable demands as inconsiderate, when you yourself are unwilling to show any consideration for those around you. Your position is further diminished by the fact that you place a higher value on your own convenience than the comfort and happiness of your children. Since you can't defend your actions, the best thing you can do is resort to ad hominem attacks and call for me to be silenced. That is truly despicable.

For the record, while I don't have children and admittedly do not seek to be around them, I do not dislike children.

jh

Jared, this is not an ad hominem attack but an observation. It appears to me from your words that you have very little experience with and do not understand children. This is certainly not a forum to educate you on that even if such a thing was possible. Since with that glaring lack of knowledge your related viewpoints would certainly not appear credible and hence unlikely to convince anyone of their validity, the only effect they would have is to incite people. I hope that is not your intent.

To set the record straight, I am not saying that adults should not change their behavior. My basic point is that it is an airplane and we should all be cognizant of others. Whether we be parents or non parents. I generally do take tylenol PM on a red eye or international flight or any flight I wish to sleep on, and have still been awakened by screaming babies. I dont' think that an adult or a child has a right by their behavior to inconvenience ten or 200 people that are in a confined "public space". I have been on flights with drunk adults, or giggling students that are almost as annoying as a crying baby. Nothing except maybe a neighbors yappy little dog yapping all night under your bedroom window is annoying as a crying baby on a plane. The only difference is you can call the law and have the dog silenced. On an airplane you are just supposed to grin and bear it.

JaredH you are not mean spirited or discorteus. I agree with you on most of your points. We are a society and we should be aware of the people around us whether we are a parent or another contributing member. I don't blame the child on the plane at all.

And yes, I can understand the parents frustration with the flight attendant. I think it is the same frustration I feel when there is a screaming baby on board and I can not or should I say will not get up and tell the parent to shut the kid up!! Even though that would probably give me great satisfaction, I know we are a "society" and I am not guaranteed a peacful or quiet flight so I do grin and bear it as the parents should if their "little one" gets woken up. From reading these boards I don't think that anyone would intentenally wake up a sleeping baby in an enclosed area.

Here you go again trying to cover your tracks by changing the subject. I have said it once and I will say it again, if this thread were really about children it wouldn't have gotten started in the first place.

I also have to say that it is logically fallacious to infer that I lack any knowledge of children from the fact that I am not a parent. One need not be a child expert to know that children aren't comfortable on long airplane flights; the fact that some children cry or run up and down the aisles, kick seats, etc. is proof enough of that. This is a reflection on the adults who placed them in that situation, and not the kids.

Likewise, saying that my arguments lack the appearance of credibility or are likely to be seen as invalid is silly. Notice that you can't muster an attack against my actual credibility or the validity of my arguments (the latter would be awfully extreme, wouldn't it?) Your response is just a fancy way of saying that because I am not a parent, I don't count.

You can't escape the circularity of your argument and I do not believe that the majority of travelers (or citizens) are willing to concede that parents have more rights than everyone else. What ethical argument can you offer in favor of allowing the beliefs of two parents to deny two hundred or more passengers food, drink, light or conversation for an extended period of time? What you are proposing is tyrannical and I, for one, am not willing to go along with it.

Finally, while it is not my aim to anger or incite anyone, I certainly will not be blamed if people are angered by my criticisms. This is a serious subject and the comments that I and others have made were not unsolicited.

jh

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JaredH:
[B]

Now you might say that you were going to visit the child's grandparents or relatives, or that you live in Hawaii and the child needed to travel to the mainland for medical treatment, etc. Even if this were the case, if your child were truly your first priority, you would have made better arrangements.

[/QUOTE
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/rolleyes.gif
Yeah, why didn't you take the boat from HNL to SFO...they have hourly service, don't they ? Or why didn't you guys just swim...

My inference had nothing to do with the fact that you are not a parent. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

I see your point, and I apologize if I offended anyone...I suppose I was just reliving my frustration, and perhaps got a little carried away in my description. I also think there's a polite and a ruder way to "shoosh" someone, and I certainly used the nicer of the two (as did my wife)...maybe I should have spelled it "Sssssh" for a bit more clarity.



Thanks, Steve M., I think you've summed up a reasonable course of action. I think I was just so on edge I was afraid I wouldn't be able to ask politely without an edge of irritation to my voice...but if this ever happens again (hope it doesn't, and I don't make a habit of taking my son on long flights) I'll try your approach.

-P

They do have nearly hourly boat service from SFO to HNL... It's called 'Matson'... http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/biggrin.gif

That's why I always upgrade when flying with my kids -- at least in First Class their little legs can't reach the seat in front when they kick.

Jared, you obviously missed my point: this a frequent flyer forum. You DO have as much right as anyone else to post here regardless of your viewpoint or opinion regarding frequent flyer subjects of which "kids on planes" is one such topic.

However, when you use this forum to go WAY off topic and make blanket statements such as kids do not belong in malls, restaurants, or public places in general then you do incite others. There are many internet forums where you can speak freely about non flying topics. FlyerTalk is not one of those places, except maybe in OMNI. Stick to appropriate topics say what you want; want to go way off topic go elsewhere.