Update on book about b watson
 

Some of you may recall my earlier post about the book I am writing on the famous/infamous late b watson and the fraud case involving his company, CyberNET.

I have now put together a website about the forthcoming book:

www.bartonwatson.com

Publication is expected fall 2005. My website collects dozens of Barton's most interesting flyertalk posts, as well as his two trip reports.

Admin, please feel free to repost this to another forum if you feel it is more appropriate.

Thanks to you all.

Jim Cameron

looking at the site
 

deserved or not it seems ghoulish and in very poor taste...JMHO

Tough to have your life exposed like that but then again, the man was a cheater and a stealer.. what gives ?

A question and not a challenge: does the author have the right to lift posts from FlyerTalk and use them? I understand that FlyerTalk (Randy?) owns the copyright to our posts, but do not know the implications of that.

I was wondering that too. More a question of does he have Randy's permission.

Interesting video clips...thanx.

Without weighing in on whether or not FlyerTalk can be said to hold a copyright on posts, I feel that this would fall under the Fair Use doctrine if any copyright were found valid.

It's criticism and commentary on BWatson's life and published words. I also can't see what damages Randy could prove unless he were planning to write his own book.

It's a true crime book. Of course someone will write it and of course Barton's published and private communications will be a part of it.

At the present time, there seems to be still an informational aspect to this post that outweighs the commercial one, but would respectfully point out that there are (at least) two relevant aspects of FlyerTalk's Terms of Service:

1) Posts containing promotional messages for commercial or charitable products or services -- included but not limited to Internet sites, business advertisements and solicitations to donate miles or points -- will be removed.

2) Avoiding discussion that attacks the personal aspects of or personality of members, or in this case, former members.

Thanks, Ocn Vw 1K, Community Co-Moderator.

I respect your opinion, but...
 

I was Barton's best friend for the first 19 years of his life. I know that Barton would have approved of the book project. The book is a serious attempt to put some context into his life, and to provide the public with a more complex understanding of the unique and in some ways admirable person that he was. Of course, it is impossible to ignore that he obtained $115 million in fraudulant loans for his company.

Jim Cameron

Thanks
 

Thank you Ocn. Since the book is unfinished, and unsold, the commercial aspect is fairly limited at this point. However, b watson was probably the most interesting flyertalk poster in a long time. I thought many may find more information about him interesting.

Also, my interview with the local TV station, (www.woodtv.com) which aired last friday, as well as the overall content of my website, are by FAR the most positive things publically said about the late Mr. Watson since his death.

Plus, I gave Flyertalk a very nice plug on the website. BTW, the copyright of anything written (including on the internet) belongs the writer, at this point Mr. Watson's estate, which is controlled by a court appointed reciever.

Jim Cameron

barton "fat Bart" Watson? on the front page?
 

I rest my case....

The first question that comes into mind - What's the purpose of this book?

B Watson wasn't the last fraud, and there'll be more out there... Why not spend more time catching those guys?

If you want to remember your friend, I can see many better ways to do it.

I'm also extremely uncomfortable to see various usernames and FT mentioned. Copyright issues aside, I thought it'll be at least polite to ask and mention that approval was sought and given, not just by FT but every name that was mentioned in your site...

But what do I know? I'm not a lawyer... This is just my 2c worth...

http://www.flyertalk.com/help/rules.php

Who owns my post?

For the sake of simplicity, we'd say that we own anything posted on FlyerTalk. Our reasoning is that we have the power to edit or delete any such post if we, representing the community, find it provides more harm than value to FlyerTalk. Also, if a member decides they no longer want to participate in the community, we would find it difficult to go into the database and delete each post an individual had made. Excerpts from posts to FlyerTalk may appear in InsideFlyer magazines, books, or other materials.

This is my opinion too. I remember reading b watson's fascinating and controversial (first class) trip reports. I don't believe the OP's reference is inappropriate at this time, but of course I defer to the FT moderators in this regard.

Before you go off again, did you really want an answer to your initial question?

An answer may have not left room for you to continue, so it was probably all pretext on your part, but I believe JC already answered it. "... b watson was probably the most interesting flyertalk poster in a long time. I thought many may find more information about him interesting ..."

This rang true for me and I am glad JC wrote not only the book but posted a link here to info on it. I find it quite interesting and, of course, sad. I knew b watson as a mere aquaintance having met him at an FT dinner. Unlike bad press would have you believe, that he was constantly an indulgent, opinionated food and wine glutton, he was quiet, humble and reserved that night.

After that dinner, our group called him Black Card because he thought nothing of handing over his Black AMEX card for pictures, just because we asked, so we could show what one looked like for our FT community pictures. He didn't say anything. We, in fact, thought to cover up the number as he didn't seem to notice and didn't say anything.

I believe that a well-researched book on BWatson is a fair topic on this Forum. One only has to look at today's headlines and see that the "runaway bride" has a book deal. The "runaway bride" caused, only a small handful of people some grief; Barton caused countless numbers of people grief and financial loss. He also managed to con countless numbers of FT'rs with his "expertise." Frankly, I would love to read a biography of this mans' life

Mr. Cameron is a non-tenure track academic and Federal Prosecutor who has a personal connection with Mr. Watson, who better to write this book? If FT quotes make the book more interesting and/or publishable, then I say more power to him.

There's a discussion of this ownership of posts issue in Omni now. From what I can tell just from searching Google, this isn't an area the courts have gotten into yet. But I am curious, if you say Watson's estate owns his posts, what about the other people's posts you quoted? Do they not own their own posts? Or have they all given you permission to use them? Or do you feel those fall into fair use, especially as I assume no other single person is quoted from repeatedly?

This is not a challenge. I'm simply curious. I look forward to reading your book as I also find it an interesting topic. Good luck with it.

Almost.http://www.cybernetscam.com/about_author.html

Mr. Cameron would seem to have much more credibility than some other well-known biographers. Moreover, his subject, Mr. Watson, is a very interesting subject. No doubt, this will not be a hagiography, nor a hatchet job. Frankly, I look forward to reading about Barton. He was Gatsby, wasn't he?

When is the movie coming out ?

I don't think you have anything to be embarassed about. :) Good question to the author, though. You have every right to ask, and presumably know the answer to one of those questions. ;) Without any IP law experience, I'd say this quote from you in his website definitely falls within "fair use," though I'm not sure about the totality of uncompensated (?) quotes from FlyerTalk itself. An interesting issue would be raised if a FlyerTalker felt his quote in a non-FT context was an invasion of privacy.http://www.cybernetscam.com/wit_and_wisdom15.html
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showt...78#post2208178
Post #6 & 11.

Also relevant perhaps:

http://www.flyertalk.com/help/rules.php

Invasion of Privacy

At FlyerTalk, we have the utmost respect for the privacy of our participants. Members can take comfort in the knowledge that none of their personal information will be posted on the forums, unless they choose to post it themselves. This means that no one is allowed to post another member's phone number, address, frequent flyer numbers or any other private information. Any such posts will be removed.

What is the policy regarding posting messages about tragedies?

In the short time that FlyerTalk has been in existence, we have already had our share of tragedies, losing several members to another world. We continue to celebrate their contributions and see no harm in posts regarding their life and contributions on FlyerTalk. This issue is always personal and should remain that way, with the respect it deserves when posted on the forum.

---------------------------

This Member contributed positively to Flyertalk, and met many members in person. He volunteered his busy time to be a Moderator on several Forums. He was an entertaining and intelligent conversationalist and host.

Glen

FlyerTalk 'Oz Fest #2' in Sydney May 27/29, 2005. Click for details

Randy does not own any copyrights to FlyerTalk for the simple reason that he has not published a claim to them.

He could, if he wished, copyright the name "FlyerTalk" and certain features which are unique to this site.

He can not copyright our posts. We could copyright them and Randy could purchase our copyrights, but I very much doubt he would be interested in doing so.

Anything we publish (like this letter) which does not have a copyright claim placed on it becomes part of the public domain and anyone is free to republish it.

Check out the bottom of this page!
 

© FlyerTalk, a WebFlyer Network site. All rights reserved.

SPN Lifer, you are correct. I did not see it. That indeed would give Randy the copyright to the name and to all things created by the FlyerTalk staff which are unique to this forum.

It would not give him the copyright to posts.

I have yet to see any legal or other persuasive citations to that effect.

Having been absent myself from FT for the better part of a year, I had no idea until now that he had passed. Very, very sad. :(

I can only tell you this: When a newspaper publishes a story, unless it specifically marks that story as copyrighted, every other newspaper is free to pick it up. UPI and AP will often copy these stories and send it out.

When the stories are marked "copyright" (generally done only on major exclusives) other newspapers will say, "according to a copyrighted article in the ________" and then only give a brief digest.

Yes, I believe that the other posters all own the copyright to their posts. The use of them on my website is in my opinion well within "fair use."

Thanks for your comments.

Jim

That is exactly my take on him!

And almost as sad was the vitriol towards BW that spewed forth afterwards. :(

Still, thanks to the OP for collating some of BW's FT posts and reminding us what an interesting and intelligent poster he was. ^

Wow, first Pudding Guy in Punch-Drunk Love, now this ... can anyone think of a good title for the movie?

Somehow I doubt the OP is Fitzgerald.

Oh! I know! Other People's Money!

Damn, already taken.

I never met b watson and honestly never really thought much about him until after he died.

It does seem tragic, however, that anyone could be so insecure that they would feel driven to spend money that they don't have, on superficial trappings that they don't need.

If he had just been honest and worked hard, he could easily have provided himself and his wife with a very pleasant, happy, and long, life.

Wouldn't the FT TOS apply to former Flyertalkers as well as current ones?

There comes a point where a F/Ter is more than just an F/Ter -- he is a public figure and subject to the same scrutiny as any other.

I don't think that any of us would say that we could not criticize a politician simply because he posts on F/T.

There have been other cases. QueenofSky became famous because of her blog and Delta's reaction to it (she was fired). She came to F/T to drum up support and while some of us were on her side others opposed her. Those who did not like what she did said so in very blunt terms. These were not considered TOS violations.

Rquesty is a CNN anchor in Britain (his real name is Richard Quest). As far as I am concerned, he is one of the best journalists working for CNN. But let's say that I didn't feel that way -- shouldn't I be allowed to condemn him in the same manner I condemn Dan Rather?

When B Watson died, there were several threads about him. Randy did not want him derided on every board on F/T and said that discussions about his practices should be confined to the one board where they would be on topic: Omni.


From Randy's post:

However, the issue is more to do with posting habits. Dissecting this members' suicide or business practices is hardly a matter in the CX or BA or SQ forums I would say. FlyerTalk does not prohibit such discussion, merely it seeks to remind members of staying on topic as well as posting to the correct forum. If any members here would like to pursue these types of topics, there are threads in OMNI where these discussions are going on right now.

Well, at least the time he invested in FlyerTalk kept him busy doing something that did not involve stealing other people's money. Then again I wonder how many FT'ers Buddy treated to drinks/dinner/whatever using stolen funds. Maybe members of the FT Bar can tell us whether that makes anyone an accessory to fraud. :confused:

Maybe because he used other people's money to pay the bills anyway? @:-)