My flight has departed...
 

After a day and some prayer, I'm not coming here anymore.

I had a battle with the moral police and even though it was called a 'truce' by FlyerTalk management, it's easy to see where this group is heading, and I don't want to be a part of it.

Low Fare searches (free) are ending, as I'm getting even busier with a project I'm working on (most of you will hear about it, but maybe not my specific involvements). I will continue the Low Fare Searches through the end of the subscription period for PAID subscribers. I will not sell or distribute the mailing list, which totals over 400 now and reached 49 cities.

In regards to Morals and Ethics on this board, I ask everyone to stop and take a look at their lives and what they let slide. I can tell you from the pictures and stories of FlyerTalk DOs, they are far from morally and ethically proper. Yet I get crucified for making a regional joke about two ethnic groups and their power struggle.

Yes it was wrong. I should have worded it differently.

but a poster over reacted and failed to realize that I had requested the threads to be deleted, even though I flat out told him in an e-mail.

I did not get suspended by Randy, but a very open and conversant e-mail. I applaud Randy for the way he managed it... he seems to have mastered Human Relations, something I wish I could do.

Las Vegas 'DO' is still on, but unfortunately, there is no drink-a-thon, so I don't think it qualifies to be a 'DO'... if I meet Flyertalkers, I'd rather meet them sober.

I've made a lot of friends here and will vow to help them in any way I can, despite my job, as that's what friends do. I'll also promise to keep in contact with them.

-nate
(only 8 posts shy of 1000, which will never be reached)

Nate, thank you for your post.

Yes, you worded it wrong, but I do have an inkling of where you were coming from.

I grew up (in part) in Southern Florida and am "anti-nothing". I do, however, remember back in the early 60s, living in South Florida. I was asked nearly daily if I were Jewish or Cuban. I guess I looked too exotic to some people to be a "regular American" (whatever Archy Bunker thought that was), go figure.

I guess my looks must have "gone south" over the years because now in South Florida everyone just assumes I am Cuban and speaks to me in Spanish. I wonder if they assume Hunki is Jewish---they always speak to him in English.

Got to not take any of this too seriously.

I've never met you Nate. I've disagreed with you on a few issues. We don't seem to have much in common other than an interest in travel -- but you are still a part of the Flyertalk family. I hope you reconsider you decision to leave.

For the record: eastwest is aware of what went on in the "South Florida" threads and while he won't defend Nate's choice of words, he doesn't judge Nate to have meant anything harmful and hopes that cool heads prevail.

I'm sorry but I'm a bit puzzled. What is not to take seriously here? The original derogatory remarks towards Cubans and Jews? What of the subsequent remarks towards the family member of a FT member?

Seemingly every post of Nate on the matter has added to his apology additional insulting remarks.

I agree that there is much (reported) behavior at FT events I find juvenile and in poor taste -- however using that as some sort of excuse really doesn't do it, imo.

I have no comment on the Florida Jewish or Cuban or "condo Nazi" commentaries as I really do not know what it was all about to be honest.

What I did personally find over the top was Nate's final post here about FT events - and one sentence in particular is surely offensive and VERY tasteless to many here? It is to me anyway and I do hope it is edited by Nate or that Forum's Moderator. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

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~ Glen ~

I think Nate did the right thing by 'moving on'.

Dan

It's all not to take seriously here. This is a bulletin board and we will never meet but a small percentage of its inhabitants and then will really only care about the opinions of a small handful of them. People on FT make remarks that I find offensive every day--heck some of them even appear to be intended as direct insults to me, by people I don't even know. Go figure. Their posts don't change my life so why on earth would I waste energy getting upset about them?

There are some people here who matter a great deal to me. I care about them and their opinions. The rest of it is all just.............the rest of it.

Nate has chosen to leave. Let us not let his leaving create divisions among us.

Not having the way with words that Punki has http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif , and not having seen the original posts ( which I think is probably just as well) - I would hate to see the fall out of his leaving create more divisions than his original posts did

jan_az,

Eloquence has nothing to do with this. There is a very clear double standard amongst certain FT cliques. At times, they claim that this is just a BB. Other times, they scream bloody murder at what they perceive to be critisism.

You cannot have it both ways. Either this is a "Community", or it is JAIBB. It cannot be both.

I saw the original remarks. I can see how they would have been offensive to some. Trying to claim that it just does not matter is burying ones head in the sand.

CameraGuy, I read Jan_AZ's post differently. She avoided taking a stand on Nate's post, which she had not seen. Rather, she was suggesting that we who remain not begin to battle among ourselves. It would be a shame if Nate's exit causes us to bicker amongst ourselves since we no longer have the obvious target.

I guess I should have been clearer. My bad.

I was not replying so much to Jan's post as to her agreeing with the one above.

My comments about burying ones head in the sand are directed at the IJAIBB crowd.

The current state of affairs is that you can be a narracistic sociopath, but so long as you don't say the wrong thing to wrong (or right, depending on your point of view), then you're safe.

In fact so long as you remember which side of your mouth to speak out of to which people, you can be regarded as witty and clever, with a biting wit.

What he said was clearly wrong. The reaction to it speaks volumes. People (rightfully) stood up and said, "I don't think this is appropriate."

Yet when some members of this community load up the nepalm and launch attacks on individuals, there is a collective averting of eyes and sitting on hands that is staggering to behold.

They'll agree over cocktails that the person may have overreacted in his name-calling, but engage in moral relativism which enables the toxicity to continue. Such logic leads us to conclude that we must give drunk drivers a higher blood alcohol threshold because they NEED to drink because of the stress from their previous convictions.

Punki: Like anything else it depends on the context.

We should always maintain perspective. But anti-social behavior is anti-social behavior - the fact that you are reading it does not excuse it. When hurtful things are said, it does need to be taken seriously.

Did UAPremierExec cross the line? Yes. People were right to tell him they though he had. I just hope these same people are consistent elsewhere on FT, and that this just wasn't a rush to indignance to claim the moral high ground.

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"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own."

Ok - my 2 cents. I think that UAPremExec's original post was very inappropriate. I can understand some of the reaction that was generated by certain individuals. That being said, I'm sure all of us are guilty of non-PC sayings, either as a joke or seriously, about "groups" of people. However, that kind of behavior is not acceptable in a public forum such as FT. I think that UAPremExec's subsequent posts did exacerbate the situation. We all need to accept his decision to leave FT and not create any further divisions amongst the rest of us.

Let's review:

1. Somebody made a post that some thought was inappropriate.
2. He too came to the conclusion that it was inappropriate.
3. He either edited it and/or caused a moderator to edit it.
4. He apologized. (There is nothing to be gained by analyzing the quality of that apology.)
5. He left the board.

So he's gone. Should we form a posse and go find him and rip out all his toenails?

It's over already.

peteropny: I want to preface my remarks by saying that this is not directed to you personally. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

I don't think anything he said created division. For one, these divisions are already in place. Second, I don't think there is much disagreement that what was said was inappropriate.

I think the discussions at this point are more related to the standards which we are accepting in this community.

For some, it seems OK to post snotty, incindary and personal attacks, but if someone were to say, "You know how stubborn those <fill in race/gender> can be" suddenly the indignant brigade must be mobilized.

Is it wrong to disparage a group based on race, sexual orientation, faith, marital status, hair color, shoe size or choice of boxer vs. briefs? Of course.

Why then is it acceptable for to sit idly by when engage in personal disparaging remarks, especially when what triggered it was not a something as important as race, sexual orientation, faith, etc. but is instead over something as potentially earth-shattering as posting in the wrong form?

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"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own."

All true. An accurate and concise summary.

The last half-dozen or so messages have nothing to do with UAPremierExec. This thread has turned into a discussion of community standards.

His decision to leave may be final. Who knows. I must, of course, confess to having posted a goodbye thread about 18 months ago and then disappointed some by returning.
http://www.flyertalk.com/pasttalk/ft...ML/000959.html

As for the larger issue, as with any issue, individually we must decide what is over and what isn't. If this issue doesn't interest you, you can declare it over. For those it does interest, it will continue.

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"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own."

The "I'm-not-going-to-play-with-you-anymore" type announcements always seem a bit self-serving to me. As exemplified in the posting that kicked off this topic, they tend to be laughably dramatic, and the over-the-top title of this string would certainly qualify for Joan Crawford status.

A good attention-grabber, if that's what one is after, but not useful for much else.

Every now and then we all need a little time off from things we do too much of, I've taken a few weeks off FT in the past too, perhaps after a few weeks Nate will come to the conclusion that there is still a place for him on FT, we should also respect that. We all learn from our mistakes.

UAPremeierExec from an on-topic standpoint (travel) has been valuable IMo.

His off-topic conduct was very regrettable.
Yet for a first offense, banishment (even self-initiated) seems a bit harsh.

It would seem a 'timeout' (apparently self-initiated) is appropriate. And hopefuly when he returns, he will be that much more sensitized about future posts.

One strike and your out does not seem to be consistent with other FT disciplinary actions.

Again, I'm only posting because I have not seen any other posts by Nate that demonstrate habitual inappropriateness.

So, here's hoping that he can earn a second chance with FT by reconciling his recent conduct, but more importantly, focus in the future about posting on what we all generally agree on...FFPs!

Re: UAPremier Exec and the decision to leave, I hope you'll reconsider also. In my very short time viewing and responding to posts on this board, I have enjoyed reading your (not always agreed with) point of view.

I must have missed the post that all of this hullaballo is about, though I did read the replies/repercussions of that post. I think there's a saying about those being perfect can cast the first stone...something like that.

Some things I do enjoy on this forum is that there are some very refreshing and sometimes controversial opinions expressed regarding the travel realm, yours included, as well as invaluable information. My original feeling of what's necessarily "right" in a situation can be at least changed to "well, I can see where that viewpoint comes from" by reading some of these threads.

All of these unique styles and opinions, when combined, make for some great dialogue and exchanges of ideas, of which you have obviously been a long term part. Hopefully, afer some introspection, you'll reconsider your decision and continue to share your travel experiences and observations here.

Nate,

I certainly hope you reconsider your decision.

Did you say something over the edge? Yes, and you are aware of that. I read it when you asked me to and felt it went too far. I understand the context but was concerned.

However, you self managed it and corrected your post.

For the community, I do find the double standards interesting. Some of the posters here seem to be up in arms about this (and they did not even see the actual post) but have no problem when discriminatory remarks are made about other (for example, gays).

In fact, if memory does not fail me, at least one person who was appalled at Nate's comments had no problem attacking gays and actually outing someone.

Is that OK? I hope not. But of course, that person never apologized and has been welcomed with open arms by others.

I hope that this incident helps our FT community be more sensitive and accepting of all differences, not just some.

William

CameraGuy-- GET OFF THE SOAP BOX... http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/rolleyes.gif http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/mad.gif Since when do YOU http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/eek.gif have the moral authority to claim anything around here... http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/mad.gif (I cannot believe it) http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/mad.gif

Nate-- Doode, Im sorry to see you leave, but I understand where you are coming from. I didnt see all the original posts but regardless, I feel the exact same way you do. Ignore the bozos from the moral "moral GESTAPO".... http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/rolleyes.gif they are 20 times worse than those they pretend to persecute. Im sorry we didnt get a chance to meet up during your last trip to NYC, I hope we can keep in touch off boards. Take care my friend...

(and to the moral GESTAPO, feel free to fire away at me, post here or check my profile, my email is posted) http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/rolleyes.gif

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Gaucho100K

I changed my mind and decided not to pour more gasoline on this fire. Suffice it to say I'm not sorry he left.

[This message has been edited by RichG (edited 08-23-2002).]

I know nothing about this, personally I use FT as a place to seek, and give information. I have never been one to use the internet for dating, making friends etc, as I am not a lonely person, and I am not saying that people out there are lonely... But I see some stupid stuff going on out there. People getting pissed at people all over words. There is a major mix of people on this forum. I don't know of other forums as this is the only one I frequent. But diversity is good. I don't know what "Nate" said, but I am sure it was how he felt, in fact I find a keyboard a great way to express how you feel... I am sure 95% of people out there disagree with him, but if you disagree then don't read it. Please don't let it get to you. Look at this internet, there are tons of hate etc sites out there there are horrible sites out there, and they are out there because someone believes or likes the content. You cannot go around policing everything out there. As with this forum when I have spare time I find this stuff amusing. But I am discusted when I see people taking things personally, this is all text. If I were gay, I would take more offence to being called a ...... to my face than on the internet. Just like when I get rude comments on my posts. I just laugh and think of the time the poster must have on his hands to make comments. I am young, and I have a right to complain if a hotel charged me for having a party in my room whether you think I am an ******* or not online I don't really care. People stop taking the comments expressed here personally, and Nate grow up, and realize that this is only the internet, this is not real person contact. Me hating you online is much different than me hating and wanting to do something about it in real life. Believe me ask the guys who blackmailed me a while back. Gaucho your an *******. J/K I like your opinion.

ryan..please don't call Gaucho an *******! He is a respected member of FT..as far as I am concerned..I have beeen aware of this thread..but it must come to an end. Please have respect for others. It is home for many of us http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

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MRKEY

It would also be nice if Gaucho100K would retract his unwarranted comments about CameraGuy (which seems to have been the cause of Gaucho100K being labled an *******).

I do believe this is exactly what i meant when I asked that his leaving not be a cause for divisiveness among the rest of us http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

C'est la vie

Edited for spelling

[This message has been edited by jan_az (edited 08-24-2002).]

My interpretation of Ryan's post:

was just kidding, I like your opinion. My beloved Gaucho does in fact elicit that type response. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

What does it mean if you call someone an ***, a ****, a *****, a ******, or a *******?

Nothing, because if you can't get around the autocensor, you're obviously unfit for the Internet. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

It's far more useful to call someone a narrow-minded, pompous, arrogant twat than a big *******. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/eek.gif For all they know, you've just given them a seven star rating. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/tongue.gif

FewMiles..

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It is seriously time to step away from the keyboard and get on with our lives.

I'm sure Randy has received multiple emails about this post and will be by to close it as soon as he's able. Wouldn't it be a wonderful surprise if he got here and everyone had dispersed on their own?

I know it's a stressful time for all of us, what with Tamyra being voted off and all, but I'm confident that if we just work together we can make it through this tough time. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

arturo reely lik tacos, habanas, an matzo-ball soop. sew, arturo sey, let's jus git on wiff sum flye tock stuf.

arturo luvs evrywon excpt consuelo.

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Loving, Caring, Honest, Intelligent, Empathetic, Creative, and Giving.

Muchas Gracias Arturo.

I agree..let's just drop this thread and move on..and if I offended anybody..I too apologize.

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MRKEY

Re: UAPremiereExecutive's remarks (which I admit I haven't read)

I didn't get to read UAPE's remarks, but I don't have to have read them to know that the most bigoted and intolerant members in any group are always those who want to ban free expression by others.

Just read the op-ed article in today's WSJ about Ann Coulter, probably the most politically incorrect person in America today. Every single day this lady (pre-apologies to anyone who objects to my calling her a "lady") makes more outrageous remarks about blacks, Jews, Muslims - you name the group - than any FT ever thought of. How many people do you know who have been simultaneously banished from the pages of the New York Times and National Review?

And the result - Number One on the NYT book list for weeks (how it must hurt the NYT to have to print her name there!). PC may be the fashion of the day on the newspaper pages and on FT, but the real world is sure a lot different.

I really don't care what Nate's views are about anything other than air travel, and there he has been a real jewel. It is time for some FTers to grow up and stop the censoring and banishing.

Bruce

Sorry, but are you saying that's it's ok to say these bad things as long as you provide interesting travel info???

Tell me it ain't so.

And that sums up what several posters have already said. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/eek.gif

Dan

If that is what people are saying, then we need to drop the whole "Community" charade.

Either this is a "Community", or it is no better than the Trip.Com ,Yahoo Message boards or the copycat FT.

IMHO, this is a "Community". It is one worth fighting for and one that should maintain high standards.

Those high standards should apply to EVERYONE. There should be no double standards here on FT.

I don't believe I even know Nate (I admit that I have a lot of senior moments and some of those parties are really BIG) and I get so hopelessly confused over all those UAExecUAL1KPremEX names that (except for the original PremEx, who actually isn't one) I couldn't sort one of those posters from another to save my soul.

What I do know is that this young (at leastI have heard a rumor that he is young) man posted:

That is a pretty big step for someone who has to deal with testosterone. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif Good for him and his efforts.

The world would be a much better place if we were all able to step back and say, "I am sorry" when it was appropriate.

Yes, it would.

I've said naughty things on certain areas of this site - have previously apologized - and would like to again.

won moar tim...thes topik es awl dunn.....let's git bac to flye talk.........

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Loving, Caring, Honest, Intelligent, Empathetic, Creative, and Giving.