Estimado Premex-- you write; " I don't see any evidence of that here in this thread at all. "

Maybe its a perception issue, but I certainly think that apart from this thread, its been a very clear non-written rule that you are either with Oz or against this community. I would be interested in what others have to say about this.

You also say; " My friend, that's exactly what got them banned! ... "

My response to that would be: if those banned were banned because of their intolerance, should we lower ourselves to that level and play by their same ways? I am not sure two wrongs make a right. I agree that ignoring is not always an option. If this BB were the real world, I would agree with you 100%. But, since this is only a BB, I am not sure that I can subscribe to your opinion on not being able to ignore those that pester us.

Finally, I would like to make one last point by using what I think is a suitable analogy: does a teacher or coach expect the same from an average performer that he does from his/her stellar student/player? I don't think so. I have been fortunate enough to have teachers that always demanded more from the best of their crop. Should we not apply that same concept for FT?

What I am trying to say here is that I, as a relative newbie to this community, think that the community as a whole demands, expects, hopes and wishes for much more than average input, tolerance, understanding, nerve, and patience from its most important members. And please trust me, those than know me well will vouch for the fact that I am not one to throw easy compliments at anybody, but there are a number of FlyerTalkers (including yourself, mi querido PremEx) that most certainly belong to that special group (i.e. the best of the crop). Couldn't you and the other select few that already have an enormous amount of clout on FT do a lot more for this community by leading by example, and allowing someone that clearly screwed up in the past another chance? So, you drew the line, but…. is that line really carved in indestructible stone? I mean, this is a BB, remember? Nobody is asking anybody to be best friends with everybody that posts here….

Too bad this thread didn't start in Randy's forum, I sure would give up all my 2002 SWU's to know what he really thinks about all this….. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif




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Gaucho100K

My dearest Gaucho,

please excuse my entrance in this thread, but I'd like to add a few thoughts before it dies or is locked up. While I completely agree with most of what you write, I think asking the most prominent members of this community to deviate from their personal opinions (or, for lack of a better word, to be larger than life) takes the requests one step too far. While everybody here should adhere to the TOC (and that includes practicing their best possible behavior), everyone is entitled to her/his respective opinion, as conflicting as that may be. And I don't think somebody should be forced to tolerate something, if they feel otherwise, as long as they behave in a way that conforms with the code of conduct set within the community. In other words, (you said it yourself) it should be possible to agree to disagree, and we can talk (or write) about it.
Nevertheless, you make a very important point: Nobody on FT should be forced have a certain opinion because of peer pressure. We are a diverse community and our cultural differences add a great deal to the appeal of the things shared on FT. Stating and defending (a possibly conflicting) opinion is a difficult thing (for me even in my native tongue), and we do have moderators to tell us if things get out of hand. But not to do it would be the worst that could happen. As long as we can express different opinions/viewpoints/feelings in a civil manner, we should be fine.

Just my 2 cents

Mizu

I'm going to try real hard to not take that comment personally as also a resident Australian member of FT who hopefully doesn't attract near as much ire as Glen. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

I will keep my personal thoughts on the saga to myself, as it is really unproductive to either rehash old ground, or air opinions about other posters here. Glen's anme has come up with several FTers I've had dinner with. I make my comment and move on - as I will here.

I think we all know, incidently, that Glen is still reading everything written here. After all, we still see "Joh" posting from time to time....

Anyway, enough of this...




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RichardMEL, UA 1K
A Star Alliance Member.

Sounds like people are almost making a case for this ______ (insert noun of your choice here) to be reinstated.  I asked earlier, why are we talking about this?  He is not a member of this community any longer and will not be again.

FewMiles..

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Perhaps we should all, as members of the FT Community, all get on planes and go to wonderful places like London and Dusseldorf or New Orleans and Sunny Southern California or Philadelphia and have a good time?


It is a well established fact that the "topic" of ozstamps is one of passionate opinions. It is also IMHO one which can NOT be resolved on an internet board.


So all of you (us)!!!! Get on a plane and quit this silly debate! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

It takes two to argue - at least in public. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Can we please for one moment, set individual personalities aside, and address the esteemed Gaucho's most excellent point.

There are times when a "Groupthink", "Gang Mentality" does break out on FlyerTalk and falling into step is expected and taking an independent stand is criticized. What can we as individuals (and it is only as individuals that we can so act) do to make certain that all of our decisions are based on our own knowledge and experience, independent of the (often) unsubstantiated experieinces/opinions of others. Can we even have the courage to politely ask our friends what evidence they have to support their positions?

To agree with our friends, to go along with the generally accepted position, is human nature and easy, whether those opinions/positions be positive or negative. If Rudi tells me that someone is a very good guy, I am inclined to like that person even before I meet them. If svpii tells me that someone she met is a jerk, I might subconsciously put up my guard when I meet that person.

To remain objective and examine, to investigate, listen and make up one's own mind based on the facts that one truly knows and understands (not what one has heard) is very hard. To then maintain and sustain one's personal opinions and positions in the face of opposition is even more difficult.

I just think of how much needless pain and suffering could have been saved in the world if we were all capable of making an independent evaluation of each situation and each individual person and not fall victim of "GroupThink". I know my life as a woman would have been far easier if such a utopic condition existed, as I am sure would be the lives of every black, Hispanic, Asian, Gay, Lesbian, mentally ill or handicapped, foreigner, etc., etc., would be easier were we capable of so doing.

Moreover, what can we do to make certain that we remain civil and polite even when we do disagree? I my mind, to be able to acknowledge disagreement on a given issue and still remain polite and open-minded is a true mark of mature thinking.

For myself, I always ask the question, "What has that person done to me personally?" If the answer is nothing, then, in absence of clear evidence (as in the case of UBL) that they have done damage to someone else, they remain innocent in my mind.

[This message has been edited by Punki (edited 12-14-2001).]

Just a few comments:

Punki:

I - for one - had no preconceived notions about OZStamps when I joined this board last year (right around the same time OZ did). No one told me anything about him. My opinions were initially formed around his online behaviors and "actions". I personally believe Glen spoke very loudly to this community.

RichardMel:

I have no doubt that he is reading the board. Based on past experience, I expect that he is probably also posting. Some people have an unusual definition of banning.

FewMiles:

Are you sure he will never be allowed to return? I thought Randy said the Talkboard is examining the policy around banned people and whether to reinstate them.

William

Because:

1) ozstamps did not do anything to you personally
2) there is no clear evidence that he did any damage to anyone else

Therefore: he is innocent in your mind.

So what do you call clear evidence?  I saw (and still see) plenty.  I don't care how nice he is in person - at times, he was absolutely horrible on the FT boards.  One's behaviour online and in person both reflect on one's character (or lack thereof, in some cases).

His actions here harmed a lot of people and the lack of moderation meant that people had to take things into their own hands.  From that arose the vigilante action and gang mentality FTers needed to defend themselves.  I'm not justifying it, just explaining that it was a reaction; much as you seem to be explaining ozstamps' actions as "exuberance".

FewMiles..

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If so, he has already violated the conditions of his banishment.  This doesn't help his cause for reinstatement.

What does the phrase "banned permanently" mean?

Used up and spoiled his second chance before it was even offered; not welcome here ever again; sorry, but goodbye; don't come back.

FewMiles..

A question, please. No, two. "Blessed are"
is a standard common to most of the major
religions, Christianity, Islam, Judiasm, Buddhism, Taoism, and more. Now the questions: who is blessed by re-opening this unpleasant episode? And who is cursed, that is, made unhappy and troubled?

Now the answers: No one and everyone.

Let it go. And in the spirit of the season, God bless one and all....And SHE does!

Sounds pretty darn good to me! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Have a great weekend everyone! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Punki , part of one's "own knowledge and experience" IS in fact the testimony of trusted and trustworthy friends. To ignore those opinions or discount them as not being as good as "our own knowledge" is simply not possible (epistemologically speaking) nor wise in terms of common-sense. I "know" many things from the testimony and experience of others and am very glad not to have to have "first-hand" experience of those things. If you take your argument to its logical conclusion, then no one can know anything unless she/he has directly experienced it. Both you and I have lots of knowledge based on the experience of others -- thankfully! (E.g., I don't have to personally experience the evil of sexual abuse -- or pick a less freighted category if you prefer -- to know without a doubt just as much as if I had personally experienced it that it is wrong and bad. Why? Because folks whose testimony I trust tell me that it is so.) We don't rear our children with the understanding that they have to experience everything directly and for themselves! I know that if they run out in traffic they'll get hurt, and my experience and testimony to them does and should become part of their knowledge. The principle is no different in the case before us.

Quote:

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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2"> To agree with our friends, to go along with the generally accepted position, is human nature and easy, whether those opinions/positions be positive or negative. If Rudi tells me that someone is a very good guy, I am inclined to like that person even before I meet them. If svpii tells me that someone she met is a jerk, I might subconsciously put up my guard when I meet that person. ...To remain objective and examine, to investigate, listen and make up one's own mind based on the facts that one truly knows and understands (not what one has heard) is very hard.

---

Part of "the facts" are what indeed you've heard from people like Rudi and svpii Has your experience been that they are generally trustworthy and accurate in their perceptions of things based on their experiences? Then that should weigh into your assessments and not to take their opinions into account would be negligent.

Same here.

Quote:

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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2"> No one told me anything about him. My opinions were initially formed around his online behaviors and "actions...

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Same here -- and watching as he indeed hurt those whose opinions and character I came to trust.

Again, I agree on all the above counts.

Good advice indeed. And I shall now do so unless and to the extent that character-less and harmful behavior to a community and persons we all care continues to be explained away at the expense of those who have been hurt most directly and the community itself.

IMHO.

(edited for spelling and clarity)

[This message has been edited by cblaisd (edited 12-14-2001).]

As members of this community, we do not talk about other members - good, bad or indifferent. We do however return to the topics of travel, miles and points when the opprtunity arrives. I think that opportunity is here now.

Say, I just saw an early peak at Randy's next editorial in InsideFlyer and if I'm reading it correct, he's predicting incidents of member pooling with some programs in the new year. Hummm... that's an interesting comment for him to make, wonder what he means by that?