Big Changes ???
 

I write this post at risk of opening a can of worms. Please, it is only a question... dump beat me up!

After being away for various reasons, I return and find not only our old friends Catman, Jon Toner, and Premex ( http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum95/HTML/001255.html ,) but the disappearance of a certain poster, ozstamps.

I had noticed a much less hostile tone to the boards, and realized his absence. If anyone knows what happened, I'd just like to know.

Though I never had any confrontations with him, I am glad to see this character gone, and our friends returning.

If you want to flame me, my email is [email protected]... let's keep it off of the boards.

------------------
Bob
[This message has been edited by AZ_MISMAN (edited 07-19-2001).]

Most assume that oz was banished, but unless you are in the loop (see http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum97/HTML/000330.html ), you can never be certain.

I myself am glad to see some of the good ole' faces back in Flyertalk. However, I must emphasize the importance of having a moderator for especially the most active forums (FT Community, The Buzz, Coupon Connections, United, Hilton, Marriott, etc.). These forums are in deep need of clean-up, a few offensive threads have to be closed, duplicate accounts be made illegalized, etc.

Many more work to be done and I understand they won't happen overnight, but I'm glad Randy took the big step towards a common purpose. Way to go, Mr. P!

Jamester

I guess I do not agree with the notion of discussing FT disciplinary measures in public. Oz and Catman (whom I have both met) are both very nice people in person. Perhaps your question would have been more elegantly handled by mailing Randy in private, AZ_MISMAN?

------------------
Goldlust

I, also, do not want to discuss disciplinary issues, and hope that this was not taken as the purpose. Oz has/had friends on this board, and I was curious to why he was no longer around.




------------------
Bob

AZ,

Growing up in Brooklyn, we used to say, "That's life in the big city."

Or maybe I should put that quote into SXJ's thread.

Dan

I too am delighted to see JonToner, PremEx and Catman return to the boards. They are all people whom I consider friends and who have added, depth, flavor, joy and understanding to my life both on line and in person over the past few years. I have missed them and their contributions very much and am delighted to see those empty seats at the table filled again by our friends.

I also very much miss Ozstamps. I have met him in real life on several occasions and he is, as my friend Goldlust has stated a very nice man. Even under very difficult circumstances, he has behaved himself in a gentlemanly fashion that is worth of commendation. It saddens me deeply that he is no longer in our midst and, to tell you the truth, I think he added a lot to the boards.

Flyer Talk is unique exactly because it is an international forum that allows us the opportunity to become very good friends with people from all over the world--people with entirely different background, values, goals and aspirations. To truly appreciate its value, we must make a vry serious effort to give everyone the benefit of the doubt and withhold judgment until we have had an opportunity to fully explore all the possibilities.

In Oz's case, I don't think that really happened. I have spent a lot of time thinking about this and reviewing all the posts and I honestly think, having done so, that he got far worse than he gave.

The thing that would give me the greatest joy would be to see FlyerTalk emotionally grow to a place where we can all rise above our differences and live together in harmony and peace.

Does it really matter what exactly happened?

There was "hostility" both before he came and also after he left, sadly! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

"...The thing that would give me the greatest joy would be to see FlyerTalk emotionally grow to a place where we can all rise above our differences and live together in harmony and peace..."

Amen! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif


And in a very welcome surprise that truly cheered me immensely, the vaunted james too has posted for the first time, in such a very long time! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif Far too long! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

There are others too, who for whatever reason went "missing" and have not currently been posting. Some of these folks, I did not necessarily agree with, and some may have hassled or even tormented me [which of course Oz never did], but they too are ALL missed. For, IMHO, it is the varied INDEPENDENT thoughts/opinions, positively and respectfully expressed, that consistently gives FT the great "presence" that it has, and from which we may each draw strength and benefit immensely, both particularly in the realm of "miles and points" and generally in "life" as well! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Let's argue respectfully, if that's absolutely necessary, but let's please "talk travel" rather than post about posts and posters! Discussion(s) of miles and points and frequent travel is what FT is really all about - as we know!

Recall as a wise individual once said long ago, "the more things change, the more they remain the same!"

Some are missed more than others, of course, but inasmuch as I'm concerned, let 'em ALL return!

FT is so much more than any one person. It is a tremendous cast of remarkably diverse "characters!" And that is why FT is so much greater than the sum of all it's various parts! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Very well said doc.


------------------
The world is a book, and for those who do not travel, read only a page.
-Saint Augustine

I miss janejet.

I miss Molson Miler.

Punki & Doc, I totally agree with you. While yes, I am very happy to see some of the original FT'ers return and I know that Oz was involved in some 'heated' discussions, I also know that he added quite a bit of information that I personally benefited from. So, if you are out there 'lurking' Oz, know that many of us miss you and your postings. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/starsmilie.gif

Decisions like the above will likely be one of the first orders of business for the newly elected TalkBoard which you'll all have a chance to be part of when open candidacy is announced this coming week. But until that board offically takes over, you know that I won't talk about members in public in the matters mentioned above. But, I hope you all have noticed that the first pf the Assists and Moderators are on board. Ah, progress?

Cheers.....

EDITED BECAUSE LURKER COMMANDER CATCOP FELT "WANDERLUSTY" PUSHED THE ENVELOPE IN DESCRIBING MY FRIEND

I miss Onefreeman who I hope pops in here from time to time.

ANd NJDavid too!

And one person who if it wasn't for Flyertalk I would not have discovered a brother, hero, favorite travel companion and best friend... wanderlust

He really added information with a fine class and maturity, spiced with his own sense of humor. All three I mentioned above really ADDED to these boards.

Wanderlust left because of the bad, negative tone Flyertalk took on, and that partly convinced me to take what turned to be a sabbatical. It was necessary

Flyertalk has gone through some really rough turbulance in recent month. But now I like the state of things right now (there are a few wars but I am sure the moderators will take care of that)

Flyertalk is flying smooth, and I hope it continues.

I'll remind my bruddar *wanderlust* to maybe consider dropping in everyone once in awhile (if only to tease me about my typo-filled posts and cheer me on! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif




[This message has been edited by Catman (edited 08-09-2001).]

---

Yes, Absolutely! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

And yes Randy, the presence of new moderators was certainly noted, and I'm sure others will be quite happy to share their feedback! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/Forum95/HTML/001266.html

Well said Punki. I agree.

Since you bring it up Punki, I must say that I strongly disagree with your assestment of Oz's behaviour and the resultant treatment of him here on FlyerTalk by other members of the community.

Oz was given so many opportunities to "come clean" and be forgiven by his victims (after all, his victims are the only ones in a position to forgive him, right?), that it boggles the mind!

His repeated unwillingness to do so, caused the disrespect of many fine members of this community, and the subsequent treatment he should have known to expect.

What he got from the community, he brought upon himself. It was not any type of unfair persecution or bullying. It was just public outcry. Once FlyerTalk took official action, the outcry ended.

But if you wish to bring up the subject again, which apparently you do, I would be glad to debate it here in this public forum, on a point by point basis.

Personally though, I would hope to never have to discuss this "individual" on FlyerTalk again.

Long overdue action finally taken. Case closed. Time to move on. IMHO.


[This message has been edited by PremEx (edited 08-08-2001).]

And to add the balance to Punki's generally harmonious and quixotic dreams, Flyertalk will never be what it once was (much less what it can be) until the policing not only continues but in fact strengthens.

Maybe not as obviously as were the cases of the people mentioned, but there are still personal attacks, intolerance for others opinions and poor behavior happening all over the "new flyertalk".

Turning the other cheek, only works once. When the same hand has repeatedly slapped all the cheeks, it's time to deal with the hand.

Well said PremEx and NJDavid http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

On the other hand, I don't think that the "alternative web site" which has policing and which requires confirmed identity is better (and for which to the best of my knowledge Catman, PremEx and NJDavid are among the founders). A democracy may never be perfect, harmonious, but it is still the best we have. Lets not rehash the old battles. I'm all for Punki's inclusionary spirit.

[This message has been edited by PG (edited 08-09-2001).]

I am no longer associated with the site you refer to - specifically because it did promise stricter policing and did not meet my standards of Blind Justice.

I guess the bottom line is the mantra of "can't we all just get along" needs to be followed-up with what we plan to do if we all can't.

I do appreciate Randy's swift action in a recent case, and hope swift action is the new standard.

I have no problems with having guidelines for postings and swift actions for violators of the guidelines.

I find quixotic your repeated attempts to characterize FT as "not what it once was or could be". Let me quote from a recent posting of a fellow FTer:

...I have never been a part of a place, a community, that is, overall, so helpful, special, and civil. There are people I've "met" here who I like better than people I actually know and who I would trust implicitly (even having never "really" met them).

Things are fine, thank you. We'll need moderation, but I don't think that we need stricter policing.

[This message has been edited by PG (edited 08-09-2001).]

Okay. Moderators may have their place on FT to help steer members' posts to appropriate forums and keep threads on topic (although it seemed to me that we were largely accomplishing this on our own). But policing...stricter policing...talk of Blind Justice...swift action against violators? Good heavens!

My approach to FT has been and will remain rather straightforward. I read through topics that interest me, learn from them, contribute whenever I believe my posts can make a difference and ignore the posts (and authors) I do not like.

There have been many, many posts I have read, since joining FT about 17 months ago, where the author has been arrogant, rude, crass, mean spirited and downright nasty. And, because of those posts, I have concluded that he or she probably is someone I would prefer not to meet.

Sad to say those situations still exist, at times, even under the guise of the "new and improved" FlyerTalk.

However, I have met some wonderful people at FT gatherings and on my mileage runs and other travels. It is these folks who keep my interest in FT and keep me logging on at least daily, plus there are a number of FTers I do hope to meet one day.

While I don't know the details about how any FTers might have suffered at the hands of some of the folks who have been "dealt with" and are no longer around (don't want to know...none of my business) I just can't get excited about such things.

If I read a post that I find objectionable, I typically pass it by and focus on others that are written in the true spirit of FlyerTalk: sharing information, ideas, philosophies, strategies and personal experiences with the goal of helping each other enjoy travel - and meeting folks along the way to share that joy when we can - while maximizing the benefit of frequent flyer and other affinity programs.

I'm with Punki and PG on this one.

The voice of reason has spoken. I have in the year that I have been around this Board met nad hope to meet some delightful people. My eyes have opened to things that I would never have seen. I am and always will be indebted to the Board and the decent people who write here. From th pictures that I have seen from San Diego and elsewhere, everyone looked quite normal, and seemed to be enjoying themselves.

There are others who have written in a manner that is arrogant, conceited, and highly opinionated. I can live with that. I judge on the content rather than the style. I do not judge people who I have never met. Posting is highly limited as sometimes things which are said take on a whole different dimension when they are written. I have to say that I treat this place in a rather light-hearted way. It is a place to enjoy, and not to take too seriously. It is also a part of my life, not the whole of it. I have a whole life, friends, and amusements that existed before this place came and should this place close tomorrow they will continue to exist.

This seems to be a problem for some. I think that they treat this place with far too much earnestness, and for some reason, (mostly I suspect a form of insecurity) take great umbrage at any inferred contradiction of their point of view. They take personally views which are expressed by others (we only have to read anything to do with children or behaviour to know that.) Others indeed make rude personal remarks which are totally unwarranted and in some instances quite laughable (I have been called politically correct, without humour and stodgy. I actually asked my colleagues, they burst out laughing). I can deal with it, others cannot. We have those who insist on having the last word, or indeed the last jibe. there are those whose grasp of language or grammar (and I exclude everybody to whom english is not a mother tongue) seem to have been gleaned from comic book designed for those who are just coping with solid food.
The worst in my book are the self-righteous who are so terribly concerned where anything is posted, or it's appropriateness to this or that thread. I actually had one person email me because I had put a telephone number with a premium number for AA ESPlats in the UK. I was unable to respond as I was on compassionate leave. As it so happened, it was a number which had been printed in the press over here, which is where I got it from in the first place. I then scanned the rules which prevailed upon joining. this seemed to be some unwritten law. This is actually on a cyberspace chat-board. People who I tell this to think that I am having them on. Who is their right mind could take anything so seriously?

Ulitmately so what? Everyone is different, and has their own views and concerns. I may not share them, bit I can respect them. If or we do not like what they or anyone else has to say the answer is simple. Ignore them, and go on ignoring them, and ignore them long enough and they will get bored and go away. Try reasoning, admonishing, critising, chiding or anything else and you just throw petrol on the fire.

Maybe I am just too sardonic, but I really do not see what having Post Police will ultimately do. If others want to sweep off vowing never to return then so be it, I'll believe it in the long term but not before. Please be in no doubt as to my sincerity in the enjoyment I have had, and the things that I have learnt, but please accept also that I enjoy lots of other things as well, and have a very fulfilled and happy life for which I thank God. Any of you passing through this my home are always welcome to contact me, and hopefully meet. Two who I have met, one from outside New York and one from Raleigh, will be in my heart for the rest of my life. Another corresponds regularly from Chicago and has become a great pal.

Thank you all for making this an enriched year that I have been here, and hope that we all benefit mutually from our exchanges. Anything less is an affront to the founder of this Board.

As always Paul: well put!

My policy is that I like everybody but that guy was polluting practically every thread with self-important babble. He had many chances to get reasonable but for whatever reason didn't. He chased off some of my favorite people. Allowing him to behave that way really changed the quality of the FlyerTalk experience for the worse and I'm glad he's gone. Sometimes you have to use the big axe. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

The beatings will continue until morale improves.

My son had some learning disability problems when he was younger.
Many times he over-compensated for his problems by lots of additional talking and loads of extra verbiage.

It was only last May that I recognized the problem with Oz.
Having a LD problem is not a crime. Many people face this everyday. But if you don't know that a person is LD, you think they have a problem.

Dan

I have only a measly bachelors in Psych so I won't even venture to speak to LD, but I do know that there have been several occasions when I have observed Oz to respond with grace and dignity to persons who were intentionally unkind to him. That impressed me.

Punki & Paul,

Kudos for well intented, well presented remarks!

While I wasn't embroiled in the OZ debacles, but I tend to side in favor of over-inclusion, and support the concept of not taking most things too seriously (hence my self-deprecating "handle"), with the exception of really serious things, like our families.

And Paul, keep in mind that sometimes even squat is better than the alternative. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif