FF statistics
 

Dear frequent flyers of any program,

desperate after several days on the internet, I'm still looking for frequent traveler statistics. Do you have any answers to the following questions (even if you just know details on your own FFP(s) - you know about the power of a community):

- No. of FFP members of the worlds biggest airlines
- No. of FGP members of the worlds biggest hotels
- Total no. of FTP (Frequent traveler program) members in the USA, Europe, Asia
- Growth rate of FTP members world-wide or by area

- Average miles earned/year per member
- Average miles spent/year per member
- Total miles earned/year (world-wide or by area)
- Total miles redeemed/year (world-wide or by area)
- Total outstanding mile debt of all airlines

- Price of miles purchased from a program partner
- Cost of miles redeemed for an airline (with or without consolidation of expired miles)

Many thanks in advance & best regards
Dominic Hofer / Switzerland

DOHO .. welcome here as a first time poster! Sorry no-one else has any info for you yet in the 21 hours since you asked ... far too much navel gazing and reminiscing and back slapping going on lately it seems, to find time to welcome and assist someone NEW here, which is kind of ironic. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Here is info that may assist a little, from the world's largest airline. Others up with statistics on other plans may have similar data for you. btw .. the more correct forum to post this in might have been "General Travel Talk."

United Airlines has 38 million Mileage Plus members. Of that 38 million only about 40,000 this year have acheived the very highest "1K" level.

The top 9% of UA fliers generate 46% of the revenue.

In 1999 travel awards issued were: 2,240,336

Upgrade awards using points 811,105

Travel awards on partners 362,123

TOTAL MP awards 3,413,564

% of total passenger miles used for rewards during 1999 was 8.7%

Hope some of this helps!

------------------
~ Glen ~



[This message has been edited by ozstamps (edited 08-31-2000).]

Dear Glen,

thank you very much for this warm welcome and the quoted information.
This is exactly the kind of "information- gathering" I expected: detailed information on one airline from many sources...

Thanks again and lots of fun on your next trips
Dominic

grüezi Dominic

ich start hütt än rtw-trip (StarAlliance) und würd gärn nach minnere Ruggchehr (nach äm Zürcher-Knabeschüüssee) Kontakt ufneh und Villflüger-Erfaarige uustusche.

Häsch luscht und ziit.

Ich wohn und schaff i de Agglo vo Züri.

Dear Glen, speaking for myself... Flyeratlk is just one part of my very beautiful and active life so I apologize to DOHO for not responding to his thread.

Just because I don't respond to every thread doesn't mean that it's not important.

In just 24 hours I...

*showered and shaved to leave a spot for my goatee.
*Went to my full time job and ended up producing and writing (9.5 hours)
*Bank Appointment
*Gift shopping for 2 friends birthdays.
*Talk to my best Friend Theresa.
*Talk to my godchild Tom Jr.
*Talk to one of my best buddies, Wes about personal issues (45 minutes alone!)
*Work on organization of the Toronto/Red Green Weekend by checking over attendees list.
*feed Cats (twice)
*Change Cats litter box.
*Have dinner with Boomer, Larry U and a friend of his in NYC.
*Work on reserving an award ticket at United for a very good friend of mine (who I hope accepts my offer.)
*commute back and forth.
*Enjoy the sunshine and complain about the warm weather.
*Sleep
*Dream of Having a duel with Quiet Lion over Charlene Teizon (SP?)
*Cats wake me up.
*Check stuff on FLyeratlk.
*do the work a day thing once agian.

I know you all would love me to respond to every post but with my busy life it's so impossible.

Maybe I should hire an assistant to read some of the Flyertalk posts for me. Any takers?

Ja Rudi, but are you certain that Dominic will understand your dialect?

(Besides, I thought that Swiss-German was only a *spoken* language)

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

baobab

Dear or sali Rudi,

well I definitely understand Swiss-German (what about baobab?).
Gärn chöi mir üs über FF-Theme unterhalte. nimme a, dass Du anhand mirer schrybwis o weisch vo wo ig chume (tip: mir halte bäre mitte ir stadt...).

häb e schöne flug
dominic

doho,

herzliche Grüße nach Bern! And welcome to FT!

Swiss German can be difficult because it is "flexible". Germans have a Fest, in Basel it is usually spelled Fascht, and in Zurich (Züri), it is a Fäscht. isch guat?

"United Airlines has 38 million Mileage Plus members. Of that 38 million only about 40,000 this year have acheived the very highest "1K" level."

That is not a fact. 40,000 1K's is just a guess from various members of this board. Maybe an educated guess, but a guess none the less.

Question: Are you a journalist or a consultant? Why is such information so important to you. Much of this is propriety to various airline companies and as such has never been revealed for competitive reasons, nor is it in the public domain for the most part. Are we doing research for you for which you will be well-paid? Sorry to be such a cynic, but this type of request for info does go beyond the normal curiosity factor. And as CATMAN has noted, our lives are quite busy and while we don't mind contributing to requests for information or ways of maximizing mileage on programs, we don't do other people's paid work, or graduate research projects.

Might I suggest going through the various airline threads and assembling some of the information you need from those discussions which have taken place, particularly on AA, BA and UA forums.

I know I will be criticized for taking this somewhat testy approach to what might otherwise be an innocent question, but...

I don't have any of this info to give you that is current, but I might also suggest a call, letter or email to the offices of Randy Petersen, host of this site, InsideFlyer magazine, and www.webflyer.com

Since they deal with all FF programs, they may have what little info on this that has been revealed by the airlines.

Good Luck! http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

Ooops,

obviously my sort of request is not very welcome to many FFs - I'm sorry. Answer: I am neither a journalist nor a consultant but do research (own purpose) as "Shareholder" mentioned. When I posted my message I did not at all have in mind, that somebody would feel like doing my work or people around me would not be working for living. But please be assured that your not doing the work I am paid for.
Honestly, I didn't mean to harm a community or offend its rules and simply suggest to close this folder and my request. I am very thankful to everybody who answered my request.

SINCERELY yours

Welcome DOHO! Please, no need to apologize! We frequent travellers would also like to know the answers to those questions you have asked. However, few were able to treply for the reasons Shareholder (not Ozstamps) outlined.

As a new user it is disappointing to see someone have a polite query, get only one useful answer, and a lot of other byplay so that he is now driven away. The long reply by one person Catman about what he had done all day that left him no time to answer DOHO perplexes me? Why answer at such length when it had nothing to do with the question asked and only ridiculed the new person asking? If this is a FlyerTalk "Community" is this a very friendly way to welcome new visitors?

Janejet - IMHO Catman was responding to "Sorry no-one else has any info for you yet in the 21 hours since you asked ... far too much navel gazing and reminiscing and back lapping going on lately it seems, to find time to welcome and assist someone NEW here, which is kind of ironic." I think he was just making the point not everyone read every thread nor do we check FT every single day. IMHO.

Doho seemd to be saying his request seemed to be not welcomed based on the responses he/she received? Seemed like some program info was sought not lengthy reasons why others were too busy to assist. Sorry, I might be reading it wrong.

DoHo (and anyone else who raises questions about my long dissertation about my schedule
For the record: it was in no way directed at you. I just tried to point out to about the veteran Flyertalkers: "far too much navel gazing and reminiscing and back slapping going on lately it seems, to find time to welcome and assist someone NEW here,
which is kind of ironic."

We are all limited by time as you are Doho, but I took ozstamps comments as a personal insult to me.

DOHO: You made a good post looking for info (you stayed on a flying topic! Excellent!

The dififcultly is that it required a LOT of information. I would go with PremEx's suggestions and write Inside FLyer for some information.

and Jane: I would take some time to get to know me and other flyers .. I have made made friends over the years I've ben here and I've tried to be welcoming to everyone. (my best buddy wanderlust calls me Flyertalker's best friend; PRemEx says I'm the soul of the board!) There are many good people and we are all looking forward to your's and Doho's future contributions.

Catman ... that remark is offensive to me. I did not name YOU, or anyone. Nor did I intend to imply any one person was involved. The singular was not used or implied or meant. I suspect you may have been the only one to read yourself into it. Had I meant to direct it toward anyone there would be NO doubt about whom - I am sure most will agree on that at least.

The facts are self evident ... this first time poster asks a very simple question, and is ignored for nearly 24 hours. In that time there must have been 100+ posters on MANY different threads in this exact same "FT Community" board posting vigorously about how wonderful and terrific and helpful this "community" always is/was/must be.

These were largely reminiscing/naval gazing/back slapping etc - no doubt about it IMHO - I made no comment on whether that was positive or negative - and my remark most clearly was not directed at any one person in particular. Many posts were excellent and astute observations. My only comment was that it was ironic a totally new poster with an intelligent well typed query was totally ignored during this "feel good fest"!

I did not say I was referring to "Veteran FlyerTalkers" as you infer above. I did not use or infer those words at all - YOU did. Many of the excellent posts in the past 24 hours have been by very new members - a point that may have escaped your notice.

No one else even welcomed this new person, even if they were unable/unwilling to assist. Yet the same threads have regulars ruefully recalling their first posts being met with a gruff: "go look it up in search - newbie" or simply being ignored. I very politely pointed out this thread was more suitable for "General Travel Talk" but a new visitor would hardly know that.

The topic "FF Statistics" would I feel sure have been opened by most here in case it interested/assisted them, so I reject the claim that people "did not have time" to look at it. What nonsense - the thread was looked at by dozens of people here - they simply did not respond. Their right entirely, but the poster must have been aware dozens were responding to other threads here - big time as the record shows.

I took the trouble to provide a detailed answer for the only FF program I had info on. If no-one else was prepared to bother assisting doho ..... their call. But do NOT flame and insult me for doing so. Had I not posted, the thread would have died without trace most probably with no response. It was already half way down the page. However the 16 posts in 6½ hours after mine changed all that, and my apologies in advance DOHO that this has happened on your first ever visit. I hope if some of the posts above have not already scared you away, that you do stay around, and hopefully look back on this fondly in 12 months time!

And doho I hope you also receive some more actual information after this post and not a raging flame, that in this thread anyway, will NOT involve me fuelling it further. Several wise heads whom I respect have asked me to take that advice on another thread 24-36 hours ago and I acceded.

There was no call whatever to use the quote above IMHO Catman, and I repeat it is offensive to me, and at least to the 3 others who alerted me to it, (thank you) and I do ask you politely to consider editing it out if you indeed are "the soul of the board" as you remind the new visitors. If this thread ends up in the recently all too familar rage, some people posting after this point really should buy themselves a shiny new mirror.

Catman, had you emailed me direct, as you are publicly so keen to urge others to do, rather than simply insult others on board to bystander third parties, I would have responded privately, as I have done to many here lately. You did not, and this is why I am posting now. I left this post for over 2½ hours just in case you had typed in haste, and later edited, but not so it seems.

I am not seeking a flame here. I have no beef with you on any matter other than this, and will in fact NOT post further on this thread to satisfy all concerned that is NOT my intention by posting this message. The only thing I will post is "thank you" if you withdraw your comment. I am flying interstate for a few days shortly, so you and others can ignore this ... or post away - your choice, you are the CATCOP and can largely call the shots.

I just feel you were way out of line posting what you did to a new user about anyone. Your 5.06 am post was sarcastic and pointed enough, but within usual limits of many responses to me, and was a very different wording to your latest one. Had you left it at that, I'd not be typing this. You started your own thread right here only yesterday and said: "let's stop attacking each other and get back to sharing some fun stories of flying and tips and stuff. Please!!"

There is a danger your post might look very much like the "do as I say, and not do as I do" syndrome. If you have a persecution complex directed at me you are absolutely wrong. I would have posted this same message to anyone who used the words above.

And to play the devil's advocate if I may - so would many here I suspect respond, had another senior boarder posted it about them.

Good Evening.


------------------
~ Glen ~



[This message has been edited by ozstamps (edited 08-31-2000).]

I didn't know it was our obligation to read every thread and respond within 24 hours. Let that be a warning to every FlyerTalker out there! New Members, Lurkers, and Evangelists alike. No more dilly dallying about now. Anything else is consider "ignoring." Get to work!

Even if you don't have an answer to give.

Each and every person that was on FlyerTalk during that period should be ashamed of themselves! All of you! Except ozstamps.


[This message has been edited by PremEx (edited 08-31-2000).]

doho: I think PremEx's suggestion is the fastest way for you to compile the various info.

The other assorted digressions posted above are unfortunate and rather depressing. I understand neither the continued need to provoke, nor the continued need to fire back - especially when neither helps doho.

Sigh. Hopefully next week will be a little friendlier (dare I hope?).

A happy Labor Day to those of you (United)Stateside! Good luck in your search, doho - feel free to let us know if you find out anything special!

As I reviewed the very long listing of questions you wished answers to, not only did I perceive the possible answers to be voluminous, but also very PROPRIETARY and thus not in any authoritative public domain. Furthermore most FT people would not have the spare weeks and months to gather it for you. You certainly knew or should have known this.

Your reasons for requesting such data also do not really make sense to this nice FF. IMHO idle curiosity is not an ethical, legal or moral reason to seek specific private proprietary business statistics which any competitive business would obviously guard at great expense, from public disclosure. Even if I knew any of the answers (maybe I overheard a conversation somewhere etc), it is doubtful I would feel comfortable in relating such to you or others. Business ethics is the main consideration here.

Bringing it to an end!
- Catman, i never took anything personal no worries at all.
- all the guys that are fighting out there: it is not worse a second of your time, especially as the whole discussion is based on missunderstandings!
- "Shareholder" and "MisterNice": I received most of the information requested from Randy who guided my through the "Webflyer"-pages. So my quetsions to you both:
1. Wouldn't he be the first to beware of PROPRIETARY constraints?
2. Would you like to teach HIM about "business ethics" or are you a selective adviser?
My idea is to model the mile-issued/mile-redeemed relation and growth of most FFPs and see if there is an increasing sensitiveness to the mile "currency" (especially in Europe). For this reason the request figures might sound a little "focused" but they are all related to this same subject. A model is based on many little spots of information ... which I was hoping to get through the power of a community. And not because people invest time for searching the information but because everyone already has a piece of information in his mind.
Once again, forget about those figures, stop the verbal fights (I'll do so too!) and let's talk about how we could increase the no. of miles on our accounts.
Enjoy your next trips!

Thank you doho, and welcome to FlyerTalk. I hope you next trip is enjoyable as well.

I actually read your initial post shortly after it appeared. Unfortunately, I was/am unable to provide any of the information you reqested. If I do come across any of the information you were seeking, I'll surely post it.

Welcome doho! Nice to have another level-headed participant.

BTW, were you told about the initiation fee? It is to be paid in Swiss Chocolate to all flyertalkers whose screen names begin with "k." http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

As for your specific question, I agree that even the best estimates you will get from Randy will be just that: estimates. I for one would not bet the chocolate shoppe based on even his numbers. Just as an example, I've spoken with lobbyists for UA who claim that there are in 2000 33,000 1k flyers. About 2 weeks later I sat on a flight SJU-ORD next to a corporate trainer for UA (who was very mellow and forthcoming returing from the V.I.) who said that figure was more like 50,000 1ks. If the people inside the organization have such wildly varying numbers, then I doubt anyone outside the company has anywhere near accuarate info, IMHO.

And, BTW, sorry for not responding immediately. I am now more fully aware of my obligations. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

doho writes:

I tip my tiara to you sir or madame, as the case may be. That is unequivocally the most insightful post of the week, and one of which I and, I am sure, your fellow countryman, and FlyerTalk's King and Diplomat Extraordinaire, Rudi, would be extremely proud (were he not occupied galivanting around the world accumulating miles and points, as kings and diplomats are wont to do).

I sincerely hope that you will continue to grace our boards with your insight and mature common sense, and I, for one, will be most happy to share with you whatever few miles and points secrets and strategies that I have learned.


[This message has been edited by Punki (edited 09-01-2000).]

To doho:

Welcome, doho! May you learn (and teach) much here.

To most everyone else:

I am saddened and disappointed by what is happening to our boards lately. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif

Good to see you hung in there doho. It does seem like some here are more humble and forgiving than others and someone should be apologizing for comments made above, if he states he is the "soul of this board". If you are wrong you should accept it with grace, say sorry and move on. Only my opinion.

Determinedly OMNI:

I understand more of the 'secret language' than Rudi realized... http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

Welcome to FlyerTalk, doho



[This message has been edited by baobab (edited 09-01-2000).]

quote:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. Wouldn't he be the first to beware of PROPRIETARY constraints?
2. Would you like to teach HIM about "business ethics" or are you a selective adviser?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am positive Randy P receives proprietary information re the airlines etc in the course of operating his nice WebFlyer etc business(s). I am just as positive Randy P does not pass this very valuable information to any of his business associates, his friends, this board etc. No ethical person would.

You apparently do not realize all or almost all of the information you requested is proprietary (some companies refer to it as company confidential information). Confidentiality agreements, secrecy agreements, non-disclosure agreements etc exist, are signed, and are strongly enforced for this very purpose (I suggest you look further into this area). I have signed up to 12 in any given year.

And if you do not think your requested information is not confidential, then I wonder why you wrote the following in your original post......."desperate after several days on the internet, I'm still looking for frequent traveler statistics. Do you have any answers to the following questions (even if you just know details on your own FFP(s) - you know about the power of a community)......".

Yeah, I nicely know the power of community, and I also know my obligations to it too. And obligations to companies with which I have a business relation with.

Each year or two I send a hefty payment to Randy P for FF-related services he ingeniously thought up and successfully marketed. I do/did so fully assuming he will not give out my name, my ff numbers, my ff mileage/point data, my address, my credit card no etc. He hasn't in the past, and I am certain he won't in the future. I am not so sure about, well, others....

I don't see where doho asked for anyone's personal information???

The statistical information about ff programs doho asked for is readily available on many of the airline websites:

A cursory search of American's site reveals an answer to doho's first question:

"In 1981, American launched the industry's first frequent flyer program, AAdvantage Travel Awards, to recognize and reward its best customers for their loyalty to the airline. Now the world's largest customer loyalty program, AAdvantage has a total of more than 38 million members."

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/confused.gif


[This message has been edited by geo1004 (edited 09-01-2000).]

I am also new like doho and do not understand what all the snitching is about here? It is not a comfortable topic to read. Where I come from if someone calls another names unjustly they are asked to apologise. There is not much of that on these boards. Seems like it is OK to insult and disappear? The AAdvantage info above is only about the second specific answer anyone has given doho in several days it seems.

one day after having posted doho received an invitation to meet (in person in Switzerland) and to exchange frequent/flier Know-how.

And afterwards I read about unfriendliness etc. on this board to newcomers?

Goots No? (babobab, please translate http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif)

greetings from Bangkok. Rudi

Before going out to enjoy the day, I felt compelled by all the comments of yesterday to re-enter the fray after my original post which seemed to be taken as an assault upon the individual who posted the forum question.

I suggest everyone go back to that original question and consider it for a minute. This is not just cursory inquisitiveness about numbers. Sure, many airlines tell you generally how many members they have, but 38 million is not a real number. 37,586,900 is a real number insofar as the number of AAdvantage members there are. (If indeed that does appear on AA's website, then why did several days of exhaustive web searching not uncover it? A visit to each program site might just reveal similar PR numbers, which our questioner should have been able to uncover in a few hours. Obviously, he didn't find what others seem to be able to uncover.)

How many of these members actually travel more than once a year to see grandma? We have often raised the question of how many elites various programs have, and nobody has yet come up with any real numbers, as was demonstrated in a follow-up post here.

And this is the very tip of the iceberg question that was raised. There are at least 25 major carriers offering FF programs and to answer the question for each would provide one hell of a piece of marketing intelligence. (Add to that the half-dozen major hotel programs...) The further response as to why this information was wanted does not convince me of the motives behind the original question. Yes, we might have each been able to contribute in the spirit of the board what we knew about our respective programs, as did Glen. But he certainly did not answer your whole question, maybe 20% of it.

And no matter what Randy was able to tell you, the actual numbers are proprietary to each airline/hotel and to each program. You would never get frequency of travel numbers that mean anything from any single carrier. Your question did not suggest to me a cursory interest. If that was the case, it would have been:

"Can anybody tell me how many members the major programs have? And how many of these are elites? And what is the cost-per-mile/point earned? What is the redemption value per mile/point?"

But the list you provide goes beyond such casual interest. (Maybe you are an economist with nothing better to do with your life than sit around and create econometric models of micro-industrial marketing incentives, but give us a break.)

If indeed you want -- for whatever reason -- to do a modelling of the elasticity of demand created by incentives such as FF programs, then work from IATA figures of air travel/passengers/passenger miles and posit 1% = move than one flight per month, 10% = more than one flight per year. But why? Unless you had some othermotive for assembling the data.

I am sorry if I did not welcome you onto the site. Others had, so I saw no need.

Why my cyncism toward this post and poster? In a past career as a marketing consultant, I received many Requests for Proposals to undertake projects which contained far less specific criteria and assessment parameters than the ones posted at the top of this forum. Given this experience, I could only surmise you were motivated by more than just curiosity. Or you have a very exhaustive mind that thinks in organizational systems-think.

Your answer still has not convinced me of the innocence of your original request, and if anything has furthered my view that we are doing your work for which you may well be financially or otherwise rewarded quite handsomely.

If you want to know how to personally maximize the FF program benefits from your travels, fine, I am quite prepared, like most others on this board, to give you tips and hints. That's what these forums are all about. Perhaps as a newcomer you had not spent enough time checking out these forums to glean that appreciation of the fine differences between an open community sharing, and one member exploiting the knowledge and work of others to their personal benefit and profit.

However, in keeping with the sharing aspect of our community, I have spent 10-minutes going through Air Canada annual reports to come up with a number of 4 million members of Aeroplan (1998 AR, nothing in the last 1999 AR on this subject). Assuming CanadianPlus had a similar number, and one-half are members of both, it is likely Aeroplan has 6 million members going into the 2001 combined membership year (after merging with CanadianPlus). No other information about dedemptions, etc. are available.

I will take leave from this forum now, having said my piece and on this subject to neve post further comment.



[This message has been edited by Shareholder (edited 09-02-2000).]

Does all this talk kind of relate to what Mom used to say:

"eat your peas and carrots first or you won't get dessert."

Welcome dohoto a really fascinating and informative community. I think you have survived your first pothole on this board and exhibited good driving skills. May you experience smooth blacktop and steady, gripping acceleration from here on in.

Or should I say you weathered your first bout of turbulence with grace and composure and wish to assure you that you will eventually attain a smooth altitude, if you maintain a steady climb, especially if your takeoff weight was light.

To all the acquaintances I have made on this board in the past...hello again. To all the new ones today and to come...hello. Both greetings are warmly given: boldly and sincerely by many of us who camp out here.

"Mulder, there is a perfectly logical scienfitic explanation for..." http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/smile.gif

I would love to know the real numbers for Delta Skymiles (vis a vis Gold and Plats). If you do find the info, please post it here for all to see.